Shallow Revenge vs True Revenge

[Treasure Hunter]

Your presumption of being able to psychoanalyze me online needs to be curtailed. It is offensive.

You get to speak for yourself -- not for anyone else.

I’m using ‘your’ in the general usage of ‘your’. I’m speaking to the universal.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I’m using ‘your’ in the general usage of ‘your’. I’m speaking to the universal.

Then my rebuke is even more germane -- you don't get to speak for me, and so much less do you get to speak for "everybody else!"

 

[Koldo]

I harm you, you feel a desire for revenge against me, and that unmet desire causes a sort of pain. Later you get your revenge and the pain of that desire subsides and you feel a sense of fulfillment.

The next day I harm you in the same way, that desire for revenge returns, and that desire now judges the fulfillment you previously felt as no longer being fulfilled.

A new desire for revenge showed up, a desire that asks for fullfilment too. It is not the same desire returning.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

Then my rebuke is even more germane -- you don't get to speak for me, and so much less do you get to speak for "everybody else!"

Psychology is not useful if there is a rule that says speaking to the universal is speaking for another person in an offensive way.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

A new desire for revenge showed up, a desire that asks for fullfilment too. It is not the same desire returning.

Hmm, if it’s a completely new desire, unrelated to the previous desire, then why do we get frustrated when it reoccurs?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Psychology is not useful if there is a rule that says speaking to the universal is speaking for another person in an offensive way.

Then don't use psychology, because it is always, at bottom, individual. Rather, focus your "universals" on something larger, though more difficult to codify -- "human nature."

 

[Treasure Hunter]

Then don't use psychology, because it is always, at bottom, individual. Rather, focus your "universals" on something larger, though more difficult to codify -- "human nature."

Of course I agree that psychology is in part individual, but I disagree that it is at bottom individual. At bottom it is universal. The universal psychology, or human nature, is the structure of the mind.

 

[Koldo]

Hmm, if it’s a completely new desire, unrelated to the previous desire, then why do we get frustrated when it reoccurs?

Imagine you are starving. You have a very hard time finding food. You finally do. You eat to yours heart's content.. in the next day, you are hungry again and with no food in sight. Isn't it only natural to feel frustrated that you are once again going through this?

 

[Treasure Hunter]

Imagine you are starving. You have a very hard time finding food. You finally do. You eat to yours heart's content.. in the next day, you are hungry again and with no food in sight. Isn't it only natural to feel frustrated that you are once again going through this?

That’s my point. The frustration signals the two desires are related. The desire was not fulfilled across time.

 

[Koldo]

That’s my point. The frustration signals the two desires are related. The desire was not fulfilled across time.

This is like saying that food doesn't fulfill your desire to eat just because you will once again feel a desire to eat...

 

[Treasure Hunter]

This is like saying that food doesn't fulfill your desire to eat just because you will once again feel a desire to eat...

There is the temporary fulfillment of the desire for revenge and the lasting fulfillment of the desire for revenge.

Hunger is not a perfect comparison because I’m not claiming there is such a thing as lasting fulfillment for hunger. I’m only making that claim for revenge.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

There is the temporary fulfillment of the desire for revenge and the lasting fulfillment of the desire for revenge.

Hunger is not a perfect comparison because I’m not claiming there is such a thing as lasting fulfillment for hunger. I’m only making that claim for revenge.

I think you are way too shallow. Say somebody kills someone you love so completely it hurts. Okay, you kill them in return. Feel better now? Is the wrong resolved -- i.e. did you get the beloved back?

Okay, go further -- don't just kill him, torture him for 5 years, 24 hours a day 365 days a year, and then kill him! Oooh! You really got revenge now, eh? And did you get the beloved back? Or did you just forget about her/him while you were busy being needlessly cruel and destroying your own soul?

 

[crossfire]

I’m not defining righteous justice; I’m defining revenge. The two eventually merge, but not at the beginning. I’m starting from the beginning.

Then you are violating your own criteria #3.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

I think you are way too shallow. Say somebody kills someone you love so completely it hurts. Okay, you kill them in return. Feel better now? Is the wrong resolved -- i.e. did you get the beloved back?

Okay, go further -- don't just kill him, torture him for 5 years, 24 hours a day 365 days a year, and then kill him! Oooh! You really got revenge now, eh? And did you get the beloved back? Or did you just forget about her/him while you were busy being needlessly cruel and destroying your own soul?

I’m arguing against this type of shallow revenge. Did you read the original post?

 

[Koldo]

There is the temporary fulfillment of the desire for revenge and the lasting fulfillment of the desire for revenge.

Hunger is not a perfect comparison because I’m not claiming there is such a thing as lasting fulfillment for hunger. I’m only making that claim for revenge.

But then someone else harms you, and you feel the desire for revenge again. Where did this lasting fulfillment of the desire go?

 

[Treasure Hunter]

Then you are violating your own criteria #3.

Yes, #3 filters the desire for revenge through justice. I can see the conflict between 1 and 3. Maybe 1 isn’t even necessary. Thanks for the feedback.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

But then someone else harms you, and you feel the desire for revenge again. Where did this lasting fulfillment of the desire go?

The claim is if you pursue true revenge (filtered through justice) to its end, eventually it leads to a self-transformation where the desire for revenge is ultimately fulfilled and never to return. It’s a faith claim, I realize, but without this belief, all we have is a never ending game of tit-for-tat in an unjust world.

 

[JustGeorge]

The claim is if you pursue true revenge (filtered through justice) to its end, eventually it leads to a self-transformation where the desire for revenge is ultimately fulfilled and never to return. It’s a faith claim, I realize, but without this belief, all we have is a never ending game of tit-for-tat in an unjust world.

Why play that game at all?

 

[Treasure Hunter]

Why play that game at all?

Some are called to it, mostly men, because it’s highly meaningful and we seek meaning.

 

[JustGeorge]

Some are called to it, mostly men, because it’s highly meaningful and we seek meaning.

Sounds maddening, not meaningful.

But that's just my opinion.