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Can You Change Your Morals

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
I'm not saying they don't change. However, for example could you decide to be a conscientious objector now?
IOW, do we freely choose our moral views or are they the result of external influences that we have limited, if any, control over?

I think they're the result of external influences, but...we have somewhat more agency than 'limited, if any, control' would suggest, in my opinion.

Perhaps I'd say we have 'some' control, but that actual change (rather than merely professed change) takes time.
 

EconGuy

Active Member
For example, if you feel murder is wrong, can you decide to feel that murder is morally good?

Of course, and there are many examples of this. Morals are based on values and it's not hard to imagine seeing another person who belongs to a different tribe, or race or nation to be convinced that their lives have no value, that they should be, in fact deserve, to be killed, murdered and that the world is better off without them and a better place because of it. But then a person removed from that cult learns that life, all life in fact, does have value and changes how they feel about murder.

It would be a hard lesson to learn for many people, but far from impossible.
 

EconGuy

Active Member
What I feel about something, and what I think about it, can be quite different. I feel what I feel, but I act on my thoughts.

My martial arts instructor used to say, "Emotion rules our thoughts, but logic must rule our actions".
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member

Can you change what you feel is right and wrong?

For example, if you feel murder is wrong, can you decide to feel that murder is morally good?
What about child abuse?

I'm not saying morals never change but I don't see that it is a conscious decision. Something outside ourselves has to be the catalyst.

So while we can judge someone's else's morals according to our own moral view we can't expect someone else to change theirs.

How beneficial then is it to complain about someone else's morality if we cannot even change our own?
Before answering that question we need to define morality.

Morality was not originally designed with the individual in mind. It was designed for the needs of the group or collective. The needs of the individual and the collective are each optimize in different ways, with many modern people thinking morality is about optimizing the ego, even at the expense of the collective; special interest groups.

For example, "thou shall not steal", is not optimize for the needs and desires of the thief. It is designed for the collective. If everyone followed that rule of no stealing, everyone could get by using little resources to defend property from the thieves. This savings goes to all. The math adds up to a plus. Morality is about collective sum. Moral is plus and immoral is negative.

If the group decided to allow stealing, now extra resources will be wasted through loss and needed proactive defense. There may also be the need for law and law enforcement. This is less optimized, for the group, than before. All the thieves are much better off. However, if we do the math the gain of a smaller number of thieves, does not balance the collective loss, due to added increase in use of emotional, defensive and insurance resources. Based on the math, optimized; we would not change that law, because it will create a worse state for the majority. The answer is about math. If you live in Left Wing large cities immorality is chosen; allow thieves.

If you look at victimless crimes, on the other hand, these private actions/crimes do not involve shifting material balances in resources away from the collective. If I buy and want to read a taboo book, this does not affect people the same direct way as stealing. It is part of my individual choice, using my own resources; live and let live. If others get upset, that is their emotional and psychological problem, that they should try to address to help the collective by not being so negative. Fear is emotionally draining.

The shift of collective resources, by government, to impose a taboo, also reduces the resources of the collective by wasting it on taboos. The taboo and all those who prosper by it, are immoral, since these wastes resources based on abstract crime. The Law will be the sinner by virtue of the collective math getting worse. The alcohol prohibition expanded government, but it was a waste of resources since it made the problem worse; harming otherwise good citizens, while allowing the black market to prosper; darkness attracted deeper darkness.

If the investment in the taboo, reduced the problem that the taboo sincerity tries to address; everyone sobered up, since the net resources would be increasing, this would be moral. But if the bureaucracy is growing and the problem does not change or it gets worse; war on drugs, this is immoral being led by immoral people.. Morality is all about the collective resource math improving for all and not just for special interests; bureaucrats. The free market by increase GNP is positive for the collective; moral. If the governemt causes the GNP to decline that is immoral and sinners need to repent.

We have an immoral government; both political sides, due to the debt and the interest on the national debt wasting collective resources in a compounding way. This is why the founding fathers wanted old fashion morality in government. This would help with the collective book keeping, to make sure the decision math is adding up and not subtracting for the collective.

The CO2 taboo is immoral as reflected by the inflation, loss of collective buying power, and increasing national debt. It should have done as are free market choice and not as an imposed taboo, used to grow government and harm the collective.
 

EconGuy

Active Member
Before answering that question we need to define morality.

Good idea.
Morality was not originally designed with the individual in mind. It was designed for the needs of the group or collective.

Quite right, morality is a team sport, so to speak. There is no such thing as "individual morality". Sure, individuals can have opinions about morality, just as baseball players can have opinions about the rules of baseball, but that individual still has all of their work ahead of them if they want everyone to adopt what the individual thinks. Morality is the same.
It was designed for the needs of the group or collective.

Sure, systems created to achieve a social goal.
If everyone followed that rule of no stealing, everyone could get by using little resources to defend property from the thieves. This savings goes to all. The math adds up to a plus. Morality is about collective sum. Moral is plus and immoral is negative.

Sure, and you make a good point about the cost of certain behaviors, but I think you could simply say that society values avoiding those costs, whatever they are. Be it stealing, or drunk driving, or child abuse, of of those things have a social cost, and collectively we value our health, our happiness and our well-being and more specifically a flourishing society is the best way to make that possible.

Now, the trick is knowledge and understanding of how to achieve these things that I've just laid out. We look into the past and we see where, as a group we've made mistakes, we've been wrong. One need look no further than the Constitution and the statement "all men are created equal". We aspired to more as a group than we achieved. But, with time and understanding and cultural changes, we come closer and closer to living up to our goals as a society.
If the group decided to allow stealing, now extra resources will be wasted through loss and needed proactive defense.

Again, quite right, we value the idea of personal property for the reasons you say.

That said, your idea of morality as you define it here:
However, if we do the math the gain of a smaller number of thieves, does not balance the collective loss, due to added increase in use of emotional, defensive and insurance resources. Based on the math, optimized; we would not change that law, because it will create a worse state for the majority.
Starting to sound a little run-of-the-mill utilitarian for my taste, though I don't think you are a utilitarian, strictly speaking.
If you live in Left Wing large cities immorality is chosen; allow thieves.

Not sure what the politics has to do with it. The fact that Dems are most likely heads of large cities is a correlation, but not necessarily a cause. But I'm not going to debate crime, this is a thread about morality. back to it.
If I buy and want to read a taboo book, this does not affect people the same direct way as stealing. It is part of my individual choice, using my own resources; live and let live.

Ironic, given your last comment, surprised you didn't point out how Republicans are banning books in schools, and while I concede that some books have some fairly graphic depictions, hello, this is the age of the internet. If you are worried about graphic books your worried about the wrong thing. In fact, if reading about blow jobs, lesbian sex or whatever interests my kids in reading, vs watching real sex on Porn hub, then fan friggin tastic.
The shift of collective resources, by government, to impose a taboo, also reduces the resources of the collective by wasting it on taboos. The taboo and all those who prosper by it, are immoral, since these wastes resources based on abstract crime.

Gonna have to be more specific.
It is part of my individual choice, using my own resources; live and let live.

Great slogan, but living in a society means giving up some of your rights. While I agree that the fewest infringements on your rights as possible while still achieving social values and morals that society thinks is necessary to achieve the best outcome is preferred, it is much harder said than done.

It really requires that we start with a list of specific goals, for example, "all children deserve a good education and heath care". That's a goal, now how can we best achieve it?
The alcohol prohibition expanded government, but it was a waste of resources since it made the problem worse; harming otherwise good citizens, while allowing the black market to prosper; darkness attracted deeper darkness.

Alcohol abuse is a problem for society. Look no further than Russian society to see, using your own idea of resources, or perhaps lost resources to see how much alcoholism affects everyone there.

That said, when dealing with the problems it creates, I like to say there are millions of ways to handle a problem the wrong way, and only a handful of ways to handle them right. It is unquestionable that society is better off, when weighing the pro's and the cons of alcohol, without it, but how to accomplish that goal is the hard part, if it can be accomplished without creating more problems than it solves.
We have an immoral government; both political sides, due to the debt and the interest on the national debt wasting collective resources in a compounding way.

Here you've strayed into unfamiliar territory. This isn't a thread on econ, but let's say you are completely wrong about the effects of debt an interest and if you'd like to debate this topic, please, make a thread in the appropriate forum and I'll happily explain where you went wrong here.
The CO2 taboo is immoral as reflected by the inflation

Again, it feels like you wrote this while enjoying some of that alcohol you were talking about earlier as your post gets less and less specific an really strays from the topic as you go on, veering away from morality an the good points you started with, and into politics and personal grievances.

Again, you are out of your lane here. CO2 and inflation aren't correlated in any way. But rising CO2 does have real social costs we can apply your "math" to and see that..

-Cheers.
 
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