Identity in the Orthodox Church: The Western/Non-Eastern Nations

[Skorzeny]

Hello, all

I have a question I'd like to raise - all helpful responses, opinions or reflections are welcome.

What would you, as an Orthodox, say to a member of a western-European nation (an Englishman, in this instance) who had expressed unease at the idea of joining a Church that was so deeply influenced by the cultural identities of the eastern nations (the Byzantine Greeks, the Russians, the Serbians, etc)? As someone who has had a history with the Roman-Catholic Church, I have never before encountered this problem, as the RCC does not have a great amount of concern for the cultural & national identities of its adherents - everyone celebrates Mass in the same way (except for the language used, if the Mass is Novus Ordo). However, I now find myself challenged and intimidated by the idea of joining (or, at least, further exploring) a Church which has, not so much little-to-no ties to my ethnic & cultural background or my national identity, but more that it is intrinsically affiliated with another national identity - one that is not my own.

Have you, in your process of conversion, encountered the same problem? If so, how did you overcome it? Even if you have not encountered the same problem, what would you say to someone who expressed this sort of concern to you?

Thank you in advance for any and all responses.

 

[lovemuffin]

Why would those other cultural or ethnic elements make you uneasy? That would be my question.

What I would say is that I have not become culturally Greek or Russian, and I probably never will be exactly, but in my experience it's not really caused a problem anywhere. I have not run into any expectation that I have to adopt every element of (for example; given the history of the orthodox church in america) russian culture or that my failure to perfectly blend in makes me somehow less "orthodox". It is undoubtedly true that there are a lot of cultural elements in orthodox tradition, but it's not true that you have to belong to a particular culture to be orthodox.

If your uneasiness is just a question of feeling like you won't fit in, I wouldn't really worry too much about it, especially if there are orthodox parishes you could attend that have some other western converts. I suppose how awkward the cultural gap is going to feel is going to depend a bit on that and how much the "natives" (so to speak) are used to it also. My impression is some immigrant orthodox people are a little mystified at the idea of western converts to begin with, but not hostile towards it. As far as national identity, it seems like a complete non-issue. No one is going to ask you to pledge allegiance to their country. So if it's just feeling a bit out of place, I honestly think it's not that big of a deal, and the exposure to different cultures can be rewarding in its own right.

If it's more a question of thinking that the "deep influence" of those eastern cultures is inherently problematic regardless of the sort of expected awkwardness of getting used to a different culture, then I'm not sure I could offer much advice because I don't relate very well to that feeling.

 

[Shiranui117]

Hello, all

I have a question I'd like to raise - all helpful responses, opinions or reflections are welcome.

What would you, as an Orthodox, say to a member of a western-European nation (an Englishman, in this instance) who had expressed unease at the idea of joining a Church that was so deeply influenced by the cultural identities of the eastern nations (the Byzantine Greeks, the Russians, the Serbians, etc)? As someone who has had a history with the Roman-Catholic Church, I have never before encountered this problem, as the RCC does not have a great amount of concern for the cultural & national identities of its adherents - everyone celebrates Mass in the same way (except for the language used, if the Mass is Novus Ordo). However, I now find myself challenged and intimidated by the idea of joining (or, at least, further exploring) a Church which has, not so much little-to-no ties to my ethnic & cultural background or my national identity, but more that it is intrinsically affiliated with another national identity - one that is not my own.

Have you, in your process of conversion, encountered the same problem? If so, how did you overcome it? Even if you have not encountered the same problem, what would you say to someone who expressed this sort of concern to you?

Thank you in advance for any and all responses.

Hey, Phate!

I have to admit, when I first encountered Orthodox Christianity, I initially wrote it off as being too ethnic and foreign from my own culture myself. And it's true, Orthodoxy does sort of fit itself into the culture of the peoples in which it finds itself--which is precisely why it can be so Byzantine, so Greek, so Russian, Ukrainian, Romanian, Syrian, Arabic and Palestinian all at once. That is indeed intimidating to a lot of people, myself included. But that aspect of Orthodoxy is the same thing that will enable it to become English and American. The thing that really helped me overcome this problem is understanding that the ethnic culture and identity was very often the means by which Orthodox Christians passed on their faith from generation to generation, often in the face of years and years of oppression (especially among the Orthodox that had to live under Islamic governments and Communism).

But, something which not everyone is aware of is the fact that when Roman Catholicism first came to the United States, it was every bit as ethnic as people make Orthodoxy out to be. There were Irish Catholic parishes, Polish Catholic, Hungarian Catholic, Italian Catholic, Austrian Catholic--and all of these could be within a mile of each other! The Italians would refuse to set foot in the Polish Catholic parish, and vice-versa. Over time, as all these immigrants assimilated into wider American culture and society, they stopped holding onto their ethnicity so strongly. And we're seeing the same thing happen with Orthodoxy in America and the UK right now.

Even if you do choose to worship with a parish that has a stronger ethnic identity, you will not be turned away for not being Greek or not being Serbian. The culture of the Old Country is a vehicle to convey Orthodoxy to newer generations; you will not be expected to assimilate yourself and assume a Russian, Greek, Arabic or any other foreign identity. As much fun as I have making Carpatho-Rusyn food when Easter comes around, and even though I've picked up bits and snatches of Church Slavonic, Greek and even Romanian over the last four and a half years that I've been going to Byzantine Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches, there was never any pressure for me to become Carpatho-Rusyn, Bulgarian, Romanian or anything else. If the parish you visit is a whole bunch of first-generation immigrants who don't know the local language, then yeah, you won't really be able to become a part of the community. But if those immigrants know the local language and are teaching their children to integrate themselves into the local society, then yes, you will have the ethnic components to the parish community, but they will also welcome you as a local. And there are also parishes whose entire populations are converts--even the priest.

tl;dr, don't let some ethnic history and a few cultural differences turn you off. Go find a local Orthodox parish and try going to a Vespers service or a Divine Liturgy. The first time I went, I was in, and I've scarcely looked back since. We have our own way of doing Christianity that's different from an Anglican or Roman Catholic parish, but that shouldn't be anything that drives you away.

 

[lovemuffin]

Good point about the history of Catholicism in the US. I wouldn't have thought of it but I've heard stories like that.