The Four Dirty Secrets Against Darwin Evolution

[Polymath257]

Another is the pattern of accuracy. If book that was supposedly written in 1780 predicts a future President, Donald Trump, and gets quite a bit of the history of 2016 right but somehow messes up quite often on the history of the late 18th century, George Washington manning the airports for example, then we could be pretty sure that it was not written in 1780 but some some time after 2016. I do believe that some of the "prophecies" of the Bible follow that pattern.

Exactly. There is *internal* evidence for when they were written, often when the stories were originally told.

On top of that comes the archeological evidence, the historical evidence, the textual evidence, etc.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Any prophecy you care to support.

It's kind of difficult since you put the writings about 350-400 years after the men died. You can choose to believe they are forgeries if you want.

But I think the fact that the prophecy showed there would be 4 world kingdoms as in Daniel 2:40 and Daniel 7:24 should still have some weight. Because the Roman Empire (27 BCE) would still have been out in the future even giving the late dates you gave.

And then Daniel 2:44 lets us know the God of heaven would set up his kingdom in the time of those kings. Which he did during the Roman Empire. (The kingdom being his church.) The Messiah taught the kingdom was at hand. He suffered and died and established his kingdom.

 

[Polymath257]

It's kind of difficult since you put the writings about 350-400 years after the men died. You can choose to believe they are forgeries if you want.

Yes, the authorship is about 400 years after the events they claim to describe. That happens a lot in ancient writings. That doesn't make them 'forgeries', especially in the modern sense. It was common for people in the past to write texts and *attribute* them to previous famous people. often, they did this with a goal of saying what they *thought* the famous person would say. This was not considered to be wrong or dishonest.

But I think the fact that the prophecy showed there would be 4 world kingdoms as in Daniel 2:40 and Daniel 7:24 should still have some weight. Because the Roman Empire (27 BCE) would still have been out in the future even giving the late dates you gave.

And what evidence do you have that it was describing the Roman empire? At best there are vague to the point of meaninglessness. Once again, are there any *specific* prophesies that are clearly about what *you* interpret them to mean? Not ones that *can* be interpreted in many different ways and just happen to have something that sort of fits?

Maybe it was talking about Alexander's kingdom. Or maybe the kingdoms of Alexander's successors?

And then Daniel 2:44 lets us know the God of heaven would set up his kingdom in the time of those kings. Which he did during the Roman Empire. (The kingdom being his church.) The Messiah taught the kingdom was at hand. He suffered and died and established his kingdom.

Once again, vague to the point of meaninglessness. Was this the kingdom you refer to? Or was it any of the others that had some sort of Jewish ruler?

Once again, a prophecy, to be a legitimate prophecy, needs to be clear, specific, and something that could not otherwise be predicted based on what was known when it was written. These are nowhere close to meeting any of these criteria.

 

[TrueBeliever37]

Yes, the authorship is about 400 years after the events they claim to describe. That happens a lot in ancient writings. That doesn't make them 'forgeries', especially in the modern sense. It was common for people in the past to write texts and *attribute* them to previous famous people. often, they did this with a goal of saying what they *thought* the famous person would say. This was not considered to be wrong or dishonest.

And what evidence do you have that it was describing the Roman empire? At best there are vague to the point of meaninglessness. Once again, are there any *specific* prophesies that are clearly about what *you* interpret them to mean? Not ones that *can* be interpreted in many different ways and just happen to have something that sort of fits?

Maybe it was talking about Alexander's kingdom. Or maybe the kingdoms of Alexander's successors?

Once again, vague to the point of meaninglessness. Was this the kingdom you refer to? Or was it any of the others that had some sort of Jewish ruler?

Once again, a prophecy, to be a legitimate prophecy, needs to be clear, specific, and something that could not otherwise be predicted based on what was known when it was written. These are nowhere close to meeting any of these criteria.

All 4 kingdoms being dealt with are world kingdoms. The Babylonian, the Medo-Persian, the Grecian, and the Roman. It's not vague at all. There have only been 4 world kingdoms.

If you say you received a message during a certain time, as is stated in these prophecies and it wasn't true. Then to me that would be a forgery or an out and out lie. Which I do not believe is the case.

Who do you think would have had the motive to make these changes to the text after the fact?

 

[Polymath257]

All 4 kingdoms being dealt with are world kingdoms. The Babylonian, the Medo-Persian, the Grecian, and the Roman. It's not vague at all. There have only been 4 world kingdoms.

I see no possible interpretation of that which makes it true. The Babylonian kingdom didn't get outside of what we would consider the Middle East. The Medo-Persian empire was larger, but barely made it into the Mediterranean. The Greek kingdom of Alexander went from Greece over to India, but didn't last very long at all (and, again, didn't include much of the Mediterranean). It broke up into several separate kingdoms (yes, all Greek). The Roman encompassed the Mediterranean, but didn't extend even to modern day Iran.

So calling any of these a 'world' kingdom is a stretch in itself. But to say those have been the only ones of their size is also absolutely false. The Mongol empire encompassed far more than any of these, not to mention many more modern empires (Russian, English, Dutch, etc). And that doens't even get into the Chinese empires, which also covered a very large stretch of ground, nor does it include anything from the Western Hemisphere (Inca, Maya, etc).

If you say you received a message during a certain time, as is stated in these prophecies and it wasn't true. Then to me that would be a forgery or an out and out lie. Which I do not believe is the case.

Who do you think would have had the motive to make these changes to the text after the fact?

Some people saw it as a writing of devotion. Some did it for propaganda purposes (this includes the priests). Historically, there has been no lack of people wanting to claim their ideas were shared by those more ancient.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I see no possible interpretation of that which makes it true. The Babylonian kingdom didn't get outside of what we would consider the Middle East. The Medo-Persian empire was larger, but barely made it into the Mediterranean. The Greek kingdom of Alexander went from Greece over to India, but didn't last very long at all (and, again, didn't include much of the Mediterranean). It broke up into several separate kingdoms (yes, all Greek). The Roman encompassed the Mediterranean, but didn't extend even to modern day Iran.

So calling any of these a 'world' kingdom is a stretch in itself. But to say those have been the only ones of their size is also absolutely false. The Mongol empire encompassed far more than any of these, not to mention many more modern empires (Russian, English, Dutch, etc). And that doens't even get into the Chinese empires, which also covered a very large stretch of ground, nor does it include anything from the Western Hemisphere (Inca, Maya, etc).

Some people saw it as a writing of devotion. Some did it for propaganda purposes (this includes the priests). Historically, there has been no lack of people wanting to claim their ideas were shared by those more ancient.

His reinterpretation of prophecies is what is to be expected from those that demand that the Bible is literally true. When a prophecy fails when it no longer fits the countries that it aims at then the Bible must have been talking about four nations in another sense the reason. It is so automatic that believers do not even realize that they are doing it. I have even seen the same with "Verses from the Quran" that turned out to be verses from the Bible, and when the interviewer owned up to his mistakes people flipflopped immediately. Or if you would like a more recent version Jimmy Kimmel demonstrated this with Trump supporters.

 

[Polymath257]

His reinterpretation of prophecies is what is to be expected from those that demand that the Bible is literally true. When a prophecy fails when it no longer fits the countries that it aims at then the Bible must have been talking about four nations in another sense the reason. It is so automatic that believers do not even realize that they are doing it. I have even seen the same with "Verses from the Quran" that turned out to be verses from the Bible, and when the interviewer owned up to his mistakes people flipflopped immediately. Or if you would like a more recent version Jimmy Kimmel demonstrated this with Trump supporters.

Which gets to the vagueness. Of you can always reinterpret the text to mean something different, then it is simply too vague to be a good prophecy.

 

[shunyadragon]

It's kind of difficult since you put the writings about 350-400 years after the men died. You can choose to believe they are forgeries if you want.

But I think the fact that the prophecy showed there would be 4 world kingdoms as in Daniel 2:40 and Daniel 7:24 should still have some weight. Because the Roman Empire (27 BCE) would still have been out in the future even giving the late dates you gave.

The prophecies for kingdoms are to vague and generic. There are also the Egyptian, Chinese, Indian, Mongol, Celtic and at least nine African Kingdoms, some on the scale of the Middle East kingdoms. Some of the African Kingdoms had trade with China, Rome, Egypt and India