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Why we don't have free will using logic

Ponder This

Well-Known Member
You keep making it sound like I'm saying that I know for certain that we cannot be certain about things, but that's not what I'm saying at all, I'm saying we cannot be certain about anything, not even about our lack of certainty.
Okay, you cannot be certain...?:
  1. Maybe... we cannot be certain that awareness is what it seems to be; or maybe... we can be certain that awareness is what it seems to be.
  2. Therefore, maybe... we cannot be certain that our knowledge is truly knowledge; or maybe... we can be certain that our knowledge is truly knowledge.
You really didn't argue anything at all, because you aren't asserting that anything is or is not the case. It maybe is or maybe isn't.
But then you are saying that you (royal "we") cannot be certain about anything... so are you uncertain? And if so, how do you know that you are uncertain? And if you don't know that you are uncertain, then what do you mean when you say that you cannot be certain about your lack of certainty?

Without having faith, a lack of certainty in even a lack of certainty (that self-consuming reasoning) does occur, preventing even thoughts from forming due to a lack of structure, but that's why I have faith. In other words, to even have this conversation with me, to even be thinking right now as you are requires faith, so therefore it requires faith to examine our faith because our foundation is faith based.
You defined faith as "belief in something without evidence", which (for the record) I don't accept as a definition of faith.
But even supposing that you have belief without evidence, I don't follow your argument here. A lack of certainty in a lack of certainty is self-consuming regardless.
 

Echogem222

Active Member
Okay, you cannot be certain...?:
  1. Maybe... we cannot be certain that awareness is what it seems to be; or maybe... we can be certain that awareness is what it seems to be.
  2. Therefore, maybe... we cannot be certain that our knowledge is truly knowledge; or maybe... we can be certain that our knowledge is truly knowledge.
You really didn't argue anything at all, because you aren't asserting that anything is or is not the case. It maybe is or maybe isn't.
But then you are saying that you (royal "we") cannot be certain about anything... so are you uncertain? And if so, how do you know that you are uncertain? And if you don't know that you are uncertain, then what do you mean when you say that you cannot be certain about your lack of certainty?


You defined faith as "belief in something without evidence", which (for the record) I don't accept as a definition of faith.
But even supposing that you have belief without evidence, I don't follow your argument here. A lack of certainty in a lack of certainty is self-consuming regardless.
Having a lack of certainty to the degree I'm saying actually prevents thoughts from forming unless we have faith. Faith is simply natural for us to do, and it's what we are actually doing right now, and what we have always done. From your perspective, that's not what we're doing, so that's why you're getting confused. If you switch out knowing with having faith, then you'll understand what my view is.

In other words, I am making the argument that we [already] use faith, not that we [should] use faith. What you are doing is removing [knowing anything and nothing], and not filling it in with having faith, which then results in my argument not making sense.

Through faith, I have decided that this life is one that makes sense, through faith, I believe in logic, etc. And I do this, because I have faith that it is because I was born without evidence, which prevented me from having resistance in rejecting what I learned.

Just think about it, say that as a child your parents told you that Santa Clause actually exists, would you then argue, "No he doesn't because that's ridiculous" when you lack the faith-based knowledge to think that's ridiculous? You wouldn't, you would have no basis to do so if this life is one that makes sense.

If what I'm saying is wrong, then prove to me with 100% certainty that this life must make sense, that it's not just our subjective desire to want this life to make sense that we have no resistance in believing is wrong.
+++
My argument is intended to go into the direction of thoughts being unable to form without faith, it is not meant to be taken literally, as you have been doing (since it can't be typed out in a way that conveys such uncertainty). It is to help people look inward and realize they have been using faith all this time.
 
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wellwisher

Well-Known Member
Having a lack of certainty to the degree I'm saying actually prevents thoughts from forming unless we have faith. Faith is simply natural for us to do, and it's what we are actually doing right now, and what we have always done. From your perspective, that's not what we're doing, so that's why you're getting confused. If you switch out knowing with having faith, then you'll understand what my view is.

In other words, I am making the argument that we [already] use faith, not that we [should] use faith. What you are doing is removing [knowing anything and nothing], and not filling it in with having faith, which then results in my argument not making sense.

Through faith, I have decided that this life is one that makes sense, through faith, I believe in logic, etc. And I do this, because I have faith that it is because I was born without evidence, which prevented me from having resistance in rejecting what I learned.

Just think about it, say that as a child your parents told you that Santa Clause actually exists, would you then argue, "No he doesn't because that's ridiculous" when you lack the faith-based knowledge to think that's ridiculous? You wouldn't, you would have no basis to do so if this life is one that makes sense.

If what I'm saying is wrong, then prove to me with 100% certainty that this life must make sense, that it's not just our subjective desire to want this life to make sense that we have no resistance in believing is wrong.
+++
My argument is intended to go into the direction of thoughts being unable to form without faith, it is not meant to be taken literally, as you have been doing (since it can't be typed out in a way that conveys such uncertainty). It is to help people look inward and realize they have been using faith all this time.
When we talk, especially in spontaneous conversations with friends, we do not have to consciously form sentences or even prepare what we will say. This is all processed at an unconscious level, and then fed to the verbal output device; mouth. We do not have to consciously write down a script, like we do for a speech, yet all the words and the grammar are correct, including emotional inflections and body language; heated political debate with our peers.

Often in political arguments, we bounced opposing ideas off each other, with the opposing idea, almost like a command line that triggers our unconscious mind to reprocess our memory, in response, leading to connected verbal output. One may even come up with a new or clever argument, you never heard before. Actually the unconscious did that for you, with you; ego, taking credit.

This process of the ego, with the unconscious processing help of the inner self, reminds me of the line in the classic movie, "Wizard of Oz", where the scarecrow says he wants a brain. Dorothy asks him, "How can you talk if you haven't got a brain?" The Scarecrow: "I don't know! But some people without brains do an *awful* lot of talking, don't they?" Dorothy, "I suppose they do." The ego has faith that the brain will do the data crunching and the verbal organization for them. The ego goes for the ride and enjoys listening to themselves; inner self.

There are times, when we meet strangers or are in professional situations, we try to not be too spontaneous, and allow the motor mouth to stay fully on cruise control. Rather we will pause the output; disengage cruise control, so we can filter what we might say. In this case, we have two opposing forces. One is the more spontaneous; unconscious data stream ready to output, and second is a conscious dam, to allow our processed thoughts to collect, so we can filtrate before we release. This can take seconds. It is one thing to be fully open with close friends and even swear and/or be insultingly funny. However, this clever spontaneity may not be appropriate in a professional situation. We pause for an instant, at the interface between ego will and unconscious processing determinism; two opposing forces.

A conscience, is like a dam maker, that is used to dam and then filter spontaneous speech and thought. This builds will power, since it provides a force of resistance, against a natural unconscious spontaneous force wire for thought processing output. Some people without will power and self censor, do an awful lot of crap talking.

Atheism does not see the need to develop a proper conscience, since morality is assumed to be relative. They prefer be more spontaneous, and therefore many will conclude there is no will and choice. Older school people, have known for a long time that will and choice is something you need to develop through practice. Conscience temporary wall building is how you practice. If you are taught not to practice or that these dams are relative to the political climate and the needs of boot licking; PC, there is no natural structure; earthen dams, just manmade dams. Using classic earthen dam techniques, eventually, your memory and your spontaneous unconscious processing are restructured and then faith become acceptance of the high road output; less shadow contamination and a cleaner determinism stream.
 

Ponder This

Well-Known Member
Having a lack of certainty to the degree I'm saying actually prevents thoughts from forming unless we have faith. Faith is simply natural for us to do, and it's what we are actually doing right now, and what we have always done. From your perspective, that's not what we're doing, so that's why you're getting confused. If you switch out knowing with having faith, then you'll understand what my view is.
In what way is faith required for thoughts to form?

In other words, I am making the argument that we [already] use faith, not that we [should] use faith.
Are you trying to Beg the Question? Asserting a claim about faith first... and then using that claim as your conclusion.

Through faith, I have decided that this life is one that makes sense
You decided that?

through faith, I believe in logic, etc.
?
And I do this, because I have faith that it is because I was born without evidence, which prevented me from having resistance in rejecting what I learned.
You were born without evidence?

Just think about it, say that as a child your parents told you that Santa Clause actually exists, would you then argue, "No he doesn't because that's ridiculous" when you lack the faith-based knowledge to think that's ridiculous? You wouldn't, you would have no basis to do so if this life is one that makes sense.
I don't see what making or not making sense has to do with it.

If what I'm saying is wrong, then prove to me with 100% certainty that this life must make sense, that it's not just our subjective desire to want this life to make sense that we have no resistance in believing is wrong.
What do you mean "make sense"?

My argument is intended to go into the direction of thoughts being unable to form without faith, it is not meant to be taken literally, as you have been doing (since it can't be typed out in a way that conveys such uncertainty). It is to help people look inward and realize they have been using faith all this time.
Hm. Is this philosophy or something else?

Okay... you are having a thought, that you have dubbed "such uncertainty" and you claim that you cannot type out this thought in a way that conveys it. Is there any means by which you can convey "such uncertainty"? Or is this a hopeless endeavor?
 

Echogem222

Active Member
In what way is faith required for thoughts to form?


Are you trying to Beg the Question? Asserting a claim about faith first... and then using that claim as your conclusion.


You decided that?


?

You were born without evidence?


I don't see what making or not making sense has to do with it.


What do you mean "make sense"?


Hm. Is this philosophy or something else?

Okay... you are having a thought, that you have dubbed "such uncertainty" and you claim that you cannot type out this thought in a way that conveys it. Is there any means by which you can convey "such uncertainty"? Or is this a hopeless endeavor?
Just forget it, this conversation is clearly going nowhere at this point.
 
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