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Why were ''Gospels'' omitted from the Bible?

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I Haven't read the book, but Yahoo answers had this site: Why is the Gospel of Thomas left out of the Bible?
And not reading it qualifies you to have an opinion... in what way, again?
Oh, that's right! Because "Yahoo Answers" is such a well-respected and conclusive scholastic source for biblical studies. :rolleyes:

and some reasons. This was considered "best".
"Because they determined, through the guidance of the Holy Spirit that it is not an inspired work.
That's the "best" they came up with, and it's patently WRONG! It was omitted because it was lost until 1945. Serious scholars respect Thomas and utilize it all the time in order to triangulate the dates and authenticity of Jesus' quotations.
In one chapter/verse Jesus says that a woman must become a man to get to heaven.

(114) Simon Peter said to him, "Let Mary leave us, for women are not worthy of life."
Jesus said, "I myself shall lead her in order to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every woman who will make herself male will enter the kingdom of heaven."

That doesn't sound like the "Jesus" we know from the true Gospels."

The Creator GOD is NOT a respecter of persons. Deut.10:17; Acts 10:34.
Nor does it sound like Peter.
If you were to actually exit the text, you'd discover why it's not so far-fetched. Dig, man! Don't just scratch the surface and make meaningless statements about things you haven't examined thoroughly! :confused:

Sheesh! You could at least read the darn thing before you go condemning it.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
sincerly said:
Yes, GOD is Love and HE is JUST. The Scriptures have declared all "as filthy rags". Only those who choose to Repent of their sinful practices and submit to the Father's Will by accepting Jesus Christ's shed blood will be "accepted" into the Kingdom of Heaven.
Just being a part of a condemned species will not make it.



The "Ye shall surely die" was spoken concerning the Human "species" of animals.

sincerly said:
That's your choice and opinion. I'll take the "thus saith the Lord GOD".



Again, your opinion.
Well, it's all opinion. Difference between you and I is that I tend to give God's mercy and grace the benefit of the doubt, whereas you fear God's judgment.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
There is no reason to think that these quotes did not come from Jesus apart from it not lining up with the Gospels that were chosen. That is just circular logic.

Couldn't it be possible that the hierarchy was trying to hide or conceal information about Jesus that was not positive?
Your first sentence is quite correct, with the exception of the last phrase. There is quite a bit in Thomas that is also in the source material for Matthew and Luke.

your last sentence is incorrect. Thomas wasn't included because it wasn't discovered until 1945, with the Nag Hammadi library.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Thomas was gnostic and a later aspect of the movement, it has possibilities to go back early but a 150 CE range is more acceptable to me. BUT as a compilation. These were more then likely collected traditions over a long period of time. So some parts could have a possibility to go early. No way we will ever know.
Thomas isn't Gnostic in origin, and it's much, much earlier than 150. There are significant parallels between Thomas and Q, scholars surmise that Thomas and Q came out of the same community, and that that community split as early as the year 40. Thomas is a significant source for determining authenticity of Jesus quotes.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
your last sentence is incorrect. Thomas wasn't included because it wasn't discovered until 1945, with the Nag Hammadi library.

It was re-discovered in 1945. As you yourself note Thomas has very old roots, and I'm sure you know that it wasn't originally written in Coptic (we have, actually, a few scraps of Thomas in Greek). In other words, while modern scholars didn't know of it that can't be why it wasn't included in the canon. Clearly, it was known by some (enough to warrant its translation, not just dissemination), yet was either not known or not accepted by enough "players" to be included. In fact (as I'm sure you also know), if heresiologists of the early church were aware of it, they either didn't consider it worthy of mention or what they wrote of it is lost.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Thomas isn't Gnostic in origin, and it's much, much earlier than 150. There are significant parallels between Thomas and Q, scholars surmise that Thomas and Q came out of the same community, and that that community split as early as the year 40. Thomas is a significant source for determining authenticity of Jesus quotes.

Ya, about that. ;)

Gospel of Thomas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The late camp

The late camp dates Thomas some time after 100 AD, generally in the mid-2nd century.[48][49] They generally believe that although the text was composed around the mid-2nd century, it contains earlier sayings such as those originally found in the New Testament gospels of which Thomas was in some sense dependent in addition to inauthentic and possibly authentic independent sayings not found in any other extant text.

Almost half of these sayings resemble those found in the Canonical Gospels, while it is speculated that the other sayings were added from Gnostic tradition.[3] Its place of origin may have been Syria, where Thomasine traditions were strong.


We can only hope Thomas and Q represent traditions that go back to John the Baptist and Jesus, or even Galilean in origin.
 

sincerly

Well-Known Member
leibowde84 said:
There is no reason to think that these quotes did not come from Jesus

There is every reason to believe we know little about what the Galilean man said.

Knowing little about Jesus, as you admit, you have posted a great deal of non-scriptural erroneous material concerning Jesus. Nor do you want to accept what those who did know HIM write.

The quote you are taking came from 40 years after his death min, by another culture who never knew or witnessed or heard a word he said.

They wrote based on oral traditions that changed and evolved. The authors are all unknown, and every gospel a compilation of pre existing traditions.

Outhouse, What quote? He was speaking of the text of Thomas. 150 ce makes Thomas live longer than John and as others have written Eusebius said "Thomas" was not valid and that was during the 300+ CE.

Yes, the Apostles were given the "GO ye" instructions which were based upon the OT and that which the Father instructed HIM to teach---sound teachings---traditions.(but not of/by men.)

Now the traditions they collected were not collections straight from Nazareth or even Galilee for that matter, as he was not the messiah there in these Jewish villages.

These were collections from the Diaspora in Hellenistic communities.

outhouse, Jesus taught in Jerusalem, and Judea. All the "witnesses" were in those parts.
 
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sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
It was re-discovered in 1945. As you yourself note Thomas has very old roots, and I'm sure you know that it wasn't originally written in Coptic (we have, actually, a few scraps of Thomas in Greek). In other words, while modern scholars didn't know of it that can't be why it wasn't included in the canon. Clearly, it was known by some (enough to warrant its translation, not just dissemination), yet was either not known or not accepted by enough "players" to be included. In fact (as I'm sure you also know), if heresiologists of the early church were aware of it, they either didn't consider it worthy of mention or what they wrote of it is lost.
the problem with Thomas is that the community that wrote it was not connected with the other communities of Xy. It probably was not widely shared. Like Q, it likely was orally-transmitted for years before it was ever written down. It simply was not available at the time of canonization. Additionally, we have to remember that the canonization process wasn't meant to be the "be-all-end-all" we take it for today, defining what was or was not "sacred" or "inspired." It simply set a baseline for "this stuff is OK to read in church." Other writings were recognized as valid, but not "baseline," for whatever reason, including stuff like "this writing isn't widely-known enough," or "this writing is pretty much a copy of this other one." It was not a very exhaustive process. For that matter, why wasn't Q included?
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Ya, about that. ;)

Gospel of Thomas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The late camp

The late camp dates Thomas some time after 100 AD, generally in the mid-2nd century.[48][49] They generally believe that although the text was composed around the mid-2nd century, it contains earlier sayings such as those originally found in the New Testament gospels of which Thomas was in some sense dependent in addition to inauthentic and possibly authentic independent sayings not found in any other extant text.

Almost half of these sayings resemble those found in the Canonical Gospels, while it is speculated that the other sayings were added from Gnostic tradition.[3] Its place of origin may have been Syria, where Thomasine traditions were strong.


We can only hope Thomas and Q represent traditions that go back to John the Baptist and Jesus, or even Galilean in origin.
Well that's kinda what I said (except that my sources disagree with the Gnostic bit).
It's speculated that the Q and Thomas communities parted company no later than 40 c.e., making the quotations shared between both sources very, very early -- less than 7 years following Jesus. If they're not authentic, they're very close.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Well that's kinda what I said (except that my sources disagree with the Gnostic bit).
It's speculated that the Q and Thomas communities parted company no later than 40 c.e., making the quotations shared between both sources very, very early -- less than 7 years following Jesus. If they're not authentic, they're very close.

I honestly wish we knew that.

Again, its why I originally stated it as my opinion.

We can only hope its early, and we have no way of telling how early, so I play it safe on this, as nothing indicates a Galilean origin

I don't run with a community on this because we cannot deduce it was not a compilation.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
the problem with Thomas is that the community that wrote it was not connected with the other communities of Xy.

I'm become quite skeptical extremely quickly when NT scholars start talking about the community or communities behind some text or "layer" of a text. True, we're in a better position here than with Q (we actually have Thomas), but for me most of this type of scholarship is the unfortunate continuation of form-critical approaches to texts while in similar fields (and for many NT scholars) the research on orality has fundamentally changed the assumptions underlying the practice and methods used to refer to "Q communities" or the "early Thomas community". Thomas, even more than Q, is about as close to oral tradition as literature/writing can get:
"It has not been possible to detect consistent organizational devices by which the entries of the Gospel of Thomas (GT) were arranged into an intelligible sequential order. The majority of the 114 sayings and parables in the GT stand as isolated units, with only some of them constituting brief clusters of sayings. This lack of an overall thematic arrangement weighs all the more heavily since, as we have seen, Q is organized into larger clusters or discourses. The GT has placed all information units one next to the other with only minimal linking strategies and devoid of subordinate devices"
Kelber, W. H. (2006). The Verbal Art in Q and Thomas: A Question of Epistemology. In R. A. Horsely (Ed.) Oral Performance, Popular Tradition, and Hidden Transcript in Q (Semeia Studies). Brill.

You've read enough mythicist threads here to know that one of the go-to arguments is Paul's statement that he didn't receive the gospel from any man, implying (so the incorrect argument goes) that all he knew about Jesus came from revelation. This is anachronistic. It projects our concept of gospel (i.e., a biographical-type narrative about Jesus) onto what was then really just the joyous tidings that constituted the heart of the Christian message. In other words, it need not have meant anything about Jesus' ministry and for Paul it certainly didn't ("if Christ is not risen then we proclaim [our proclamations are] in vain, and so too is your faith").

You are also probably aware of Papias' remarks on where he received his information. So we are dealing in a time and with cultures that rely overwhelmingly on oral transmission and tradition. Cross-culturally, communities in which some oral history or oral tradition is more or less controlled (in NT studies, this would include models like Gerhardsson's, Bailey's, Byrskog's, and others), there is usually almost an inverse relationship with the extent to which parts of it are written down and how controlled it is (and usually by extension how important). Consider how long it took before there was a written version of the "oral torah" . Christianity differed in no small part because of a lack of closed communities that typically exist when there is some defining oral tradition for that community. Christian communities were more open, more receptive to exchanges of information (indeed, often defined by such exchanges, even among some so-called gnostic groups). Different Christian communities didn't just rely on differing collections of texts (if they had any), but most likely used these texts for formulate a body of orally transmitted material or even incorporated them into an already existing oral tradition:
"The Didache lacks the narrative frame of Matthew and Luke, and the blessings and curses remain only in vestigial form. Nevertheless, it emphasizes the element of choice posed by the Deuteronomic tradition with the way of life and the way of death. In Thomas only fragments of this tradition remain, and the gospel uses the tradition more as the starting point for the creation of existential reflection to destabilize the world of the individual and lead on to gnosis. While the fundamental covenantal register remains constant, the beginnings of divergence can also be seen, relating to the different contexts of the various performances"
Draper, J. (2006). Jesus’ “Covenantal Discourse” on the Plain (Luke 6:12–7:17) as Oral Performance: Pointers to "Q"as Multiple Oral Perfomance. Same volume as above.

Thus the idea that a document like Thomas, which survived in more than one manuscript when most of what remains of ancient writings isn't from fragments of texts but from quotations, and which was translated in order to facilitate the transmission of its content into other communities in which Greek was little known or not known, somehow can be deconstructed into one or more communities seems to me to be both baseless and contrary to the evidence we have.

Like Q, it likely was orally-transmitted for years before it was ever written down. It simply was not available at the time of canonization. Additionally, we have to remember that the canonization process wasn't meant to be the "be-all-end-all" we take it for today
I'm not sure what you mean by "the canonization process wasn't meant to be the 'be-all-end-all' we it for today", but as Thomas was written in my view around the time that the earliest proto-canon we know of existed (Marcion's), the canonization process hadn't really begun at all. Like you said, Thomas was orally transmitted for years, and in the wider context of a missionary Christianity. Thus parts of it were almost certainly used by multiple communities before it was ever written down, and after it was both the oral tradition and the written tradition were almost certainly circulated among communities (the written tradition we know was, as there isn't any other way to explain its translation into Coptic).
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I honestly wish we knew that.

Again, its why I originally stated it as my opinion.

We can only hope its early, and we have no way of telling how early, so I play it safe on this, as nothing indicates a Galilean origin

I don't run with a community on this because we cannot deduce it was not a compilation.
Well, but we can't be overly skeptical, either. Fact of the matter is, there is shared material between ostensibly Galilean source material and Thomas. That's the compelling factor for me. At one time, the people who wrote both would have been in the same place for there to even be shared material. Given that communities usually produced these early writings, there must have been a community that emigrated from Palestine and settled in Syria, bringing the quotations with them. And given the time it must have taken for the community to settle enough to actually begin to writing things down, the communities must have separated early. (Remember that Matthew's community and Luke's community also needed time to emigrate and settle.) It's not foolproof, but it is plausible.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I'm become quite skeptical extremely quickly when NT scholars start talking about the community or communities behind some text or "layer" of a text. True, we're in a better position here than with Q (we actually have Thomas), but for me most of this type of scholarship is the unfortunate continuation of form-critical approaches to texts while in similar fields (and for many NT scholars) the research on orality has fundamentally changed the assumptions underlying the practice and methods used to refer to "Q communities" or the "early Thomas community". Thomas, even more than Q, is about as close to oral tradition as literature/writing can get:
"It has not been possible to detect consistent organizational devices by which the entries of the Gospel of Thomas (GT) were arranged into an intelligible sequential order. The majority of the 114 sayings and parables in the GT stand as isolated units, with only some of them constituting brief clusters of sayings. This lack of an overall thematic arrangement weighs all the more heavily since, as we have seen, Q is organized into larger clusters or discourses. The GT has placed all information units one next to the other with only minimal linking strategies and devoid of subordinate devices"
Kelber, W. H. (2006). The Verbal Art in Q and Thomas: A Question of Epistemology. In R. A. Horsely (Ed.) Oral Performance, Popular Tradition, and Hidden Transcript in Q (Semeia Studies). Brill.

You've read enough mythicist threads here to know that one of the go-to arguments is Paul's statement that he didn't receive the gospel from any man, implying (so the incorrect argument goes) that all he knew about Jesus came from revelation. This is anachronistic. It projects our concept of gospel (i.e., a biographical-type narrative about Jesus) onto what was then really just the joyous tidings that constituted the heart of the Christian message. In other words, it need not have meant anything about Jesus' ministry and for Paul it certainly didn't ("if Christ is not risen then we proclaim [our proclamations are] in vain, and so too is your faith").

You are also probably aware of Papias' remarks on where he received his information. So we are dealing in a time and with cultures that rely overwhelmingly on oral transmission and tradition. Cross-culturally, communities in which some oral history or oral tradition is more or less controlled (in NT studies, this would include models like Gerhardsson's, Bailey's, Byrskog's, and others), there is usually almost an inverse relationship with the extent to which parts of it are written down and how controlled it is (and usually by extension how important). Consider how long it took before there was a written version of the "oral torah" . Christianity differed in no small part because of a lack of closed communities that typically exist when there is some defining oral tradition for that community. Christian communities were more open, more receptive to exchanges of information (indeed, often defined by such exchanges, even among some so-called gnostic groups). Different Christian communities didn't just rely on differing collections of texts (if they had any), but most likely used these texts for formulate a body of orally transmitted material or even incorporated them into an already existing oral tradition:
"The Didache lacks the narrative frame of Matthew and Luke, and the blessings and curses remain only in vestigial form. Nevertheless, it emphasizes the element of choice posed by the Deuteronomic tradition with the way of life and the way of death. In Thomas only fragments of this tradition remain, and the gospel uses the tradition more as the starting point for the creation of existential reflection to destabilize the world of the individual and lead on to gnosis. While the fundamental covenantal register remains constant, the beginnings of divergence can also be seen, relating to the different contexts of the various performances"
Draper, J. (2006). Jesus’ “Covenantal Discourse” on the Plain (Luke 6:12–7:17) as Oral Performance: Pointers to "Q"as Multiple Oral Perfomance. Same volume as above.

Thus the idea that a document like Thomas, which survived in more than one manuscript when most of what remains of ancient writings isn't from fragments of texts but from quotations, and which was translated in order to facilitate the transmission of its content into other communities in which Greek was little known or not known, somehow can be deconstructed into one or more communities seems to me to be both baseless and contrary to the evidence we have.


I'm not sure what you mean by "the canonization process wasn't meant to be the 'be-all-end-all' we it for today", but as Thomas was written in my view around the time that the earliest proto-canon we know of existed (Marcion's), the canonization process hadn't really begun at all. Like you said, Thomas was orally transmitted for years, and in the wider context of a missionary Christianity. Thus parts of it were almost certainly used by multiple communities before it was ever written down, and after it was both the oral tradition and the written tradition were almost certainly circulated among communities (the written tradition we know was, as there isn't any other way to explain its translation into Coptic).
I want to address this, but it's late; will do so when I'm not punchy.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Well, but we can't be overly skeptical, either. Fact of the matter is, there is shared material between ostensibly Galilean source material and Thomas.
True.

Given that communities usually produced these early writings
How is that a given?

,
Remember that Matthew's community and Luke's community also needed time to emigrate and settle.) It's not foolproof, but it is plausible.
Luke's "community" was a person (the patron he refers to in Luke-Acts). Also, even when texts were explicitly written for a single community (such as Paul's letters) they clearly did not remain as such. If letters (both canonical and non-canonical) were so widely circulated among communities we have little reason to suppose that there exists a specific, unnamed community each text was intended for, and good reason to believe this is not so. The foundations of this idea, after all, were based largely on now abandoned models of orality borrowed from German study of the transmission of folklore combined with outdated sociological conceptions about the nature of community in general and in antiquity in particular.

EDIT: if possible, I would appreciate you holding off on your comments on this post as well. You are well-educated on this subject and I would like to benefit form your commentary when you are in the state of mind to do so best.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I appreciate that. Would that I had your restraint!
Got your last message. I'll reply when I've got the frame of mind to put some meat to the post. As for the reference to my "restraint," somehow, I think that reference rather smacks of the fabled "El Dorado..." :confused: Have you read some of my other posts?!
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Have you read some of my other posts?!
Yes. They've saved me from feeling like I have to post a response more than once (you said at least as much as I had intended), and usually that only thing that I would've added had I posted is more invective.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Well, that's not really the job of exegesis, either.
Interpretation has to match the intended meaning. The intended meaning is sometimes understood, or figured out, through tradition. One of the problems with religious text interpretation is that one 'incorrect' idea, can completely alter the meaning of the entire interpreted narrative. This is why, there can be two or more 'interpretations' of religious text that can simultaneously ''make sense''. When that happens, you have to start 'simplifying' the word meaning analysis, and that is where, imo, some exegesis starts to get goofy. When word meaning becomes increasingly subjective to previous assumptions or false conclusions, the narrative becomes more and more subjective, ie, a mess. (In the context of the ''words'' meaning what they would mean from reading it straight, with no theological presuppositions.)
 

ImaTroll

Member
If it is all the 'word of God,' why would those who supposedly compiled the Bible, omit those texts? How can anyone be certain then of the Bible's validity, if not all of ''God's word'' was included? Who is man to omit certain books out of the Bible--isn't that ''tampering'' with God's word?
i view the bible as not entirely valid for precisely that reason. there are perhaps 100 apocryphal/pseudepigraphal works that were entirely omitted from the bible. any books that weren't consistent with the doctrines of the day were omitted. they were simply too controversial.
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
When a canon is compiled, the inference is that all the books are 'equal' in truth. This means that, if in one book it states that so and so lived in Galilee, we take it as truth. If in another book it states that this same so and so was a fisherman, we thusly also take it as 'truth'. (To the narrative). So, we notice the logic of interpretation which treats different statements as a 'compilation', of truths,regardless of what they state. Deviations from this are
-A belief that some books don't count.
-A belief that one knows the ''intended'' meaning of a statement which one doesn't believe. /to be literal/
There are numerous 'explanations' as to why someone might use one of these deviations, however the fact of the compilation itself is a huge hurdle to overcome.
When one claims to have unique knowledge that enables them to utilize a deviation, they have to ''prove'' the truth of their unique knowledge. Some issues regarding this.
-There is more than one 'church'.
-Xianity started before a formalized ''church, or churches.
-Beliefs change within churches.
 
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