Who is Second Coming of Jesus? Is it literally Jesus himself? Or Mirza Ghulam Ahmad?

[ameraz1]

Many Christian and Muslims believe that signs of the latter-days have manifest or at least started to manifest. Most of the Christians and Muslims believe at some point Jesus will literally descend himself from the heavens. Adherents of the Ahmadiyya Movement in Islam assert that their founder Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is the allegorical second coming of Jesus according to prophecies in the Gospels, Quran and Islamic literature. Mainstream Christians and Muslims would disagree.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Main stream Muslims will not accept Jesus as the Son of God, and main stream Christians will not see any need of God sending another messenger when Jesus did all that was required. Abrahamics hold their chairs tightly.

 

[ameraz1]

Main stream Muslims will not accept Jesus as the Son of God, and main stream Christians will not see any need of God sending another messenger when Jesus did all that was required. Abrahamics hold their chairs tightly.

Correct, they do hold tightly, but with many prophecies on the second coming of Christ being fulfilled as we speak and Christ not appearing according to their notions, in time this hold will begin to dissipate. I have spoken to many Muslims who have openly abandoned the belief that Jesus (pbuh) is to return. Islamic scholars like Javed A Ghamedi now openly advocate that no one is to come. Jews also cling to the belief that Elijah and Messiah will eventually come but for them it is now 3,000 years on and still nothing.

But things change, just like they did when Christianity and Islam established themselves as major religions.

Btw, if you are of the Hindu persuasion then same goes for the Kalki Avataar of Sri Krishan-- he said that he will return during the kaali yurg, which many believe is occurring now.

 

[paarsurrey]

Many Christian and Muslims believe that signs of the latter-days have manifest or at least started to manifest. Most of the Christians and Muslims believe at some point Jesus will literally descend himself from the heavens. Adherents of the Ahmadiyya Movement in Islam assert that their founder Mirza Ghulam Ahmad is the allegorical second coming of Jesus according to prophecies in the Gospels, Quran and Islamic literature. Mainstream Christians and Muslims would disagree.

Jesus died a natural death like Moses.
There is no possibility for Jesus to come again literally and physically.
Regards

 

[Kolibri]

Jehovah's Witnesses recognize the Christ coming in Kingly power to be none other than Jesus himself. He is no longer a human but a mighty spirit creature. Despite no longer having a body made out of flesh, he is still the same person that walked earth 2000 years ago. Luke 9:21,22,43b-45; 18:31-34 all have Jesus foretelling his own death. In Luke 9:22 specifically he identifies himself as the "Son of man" and also says he would live again starting on the 3rd day. (The Gospel accounts apply this expression to Jesus nearly 80 times.) So when the Christian Greek Scriptures refer to the Son of man outside the Gospels these too are understood to be identifying Jesus specifically. These occurrences are found at Acts 7:56; Hebrews 2:6; and Revelation 1:13; 14:14.

"For the Son of man is to come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and then he will repay each one according to his behavior."
- Mt 16:27

"Then I saw, and look! a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was someone like a son of man, with a golden crown on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand."
- Re 14:14

 

[Tumah]

Jews also cling to the belief that Elijah and Messiah will eventually come but for them it is now 3,000 years on and still nothing.

Technically we've only been waiting for 1,775 years.

 

[ameraz1]

Technically we've only been waiting for 1,775 years.

How so? Prophecies of the Messiah are found in the OT, and Jews during the time of Jesus believed that they were in the end-times. What technicality are you referring to?

 

[paarsurrey]

Technically we've only been waiting for 1,775 years.

You mean wailing started 1775 ago?

Regaards

 

[Tumah]

You mean wailing started 1775 ago?

Regaards

If you are referring to wailing over the destruction of the Temple, then no. That started 1,945 years ago.

 

[ameraz1]

Thought-provokers that the prophecies of the 2nd coming of Jesus/end-times Messiah are allegorical >

1. No prophet has ever returned from the dead/or descended from the Heavens.
2. Jesus himself gave a rational interpretations of the second coming of Elijah as John the Baptist.
3. Daniel 12:4 and many other prophecies in world religions have been fulfilled and no one has descended from the skies.
4. Such prophecies need to be interpreted in their historical context whereby they have occurred in a symbolic manner.
5. Parabolic/symbolic language is repeatedly used in scripture and prophecy

 

[Tumah]

How so? Prophecies of the Messiah are found in the OT, and Jews during the time of Jesus believed that they were in the end-times. What technicality are you referring to?

If he would have come before the Temple was destroyed he would have been coming earlier than expected. Not impossible, but not expected. The waiting only began after the time he was expected began and that was only 1,775 years ago.

 

[arthra]

For Baha'is the prophecies concerning the second coming of Christ were fulfilled in 1844 in Shiraz with the declaration of the Bab (Siyyid Ali Muhammad) that He was the Mahdi and Qa'im ... this tied in the Islamic and Christian expectations... Muslims expecting the return of Jesus and Christians as well.

Two movements also sprang from this period around 1844...the Adventist movement from William Miller and the Shaykhi movement from Shaykh Ahmad Ahsai in Iran and Iraq.

 

[Kolibri]

If he would have come before the Temple was destroyed he would have been coming earlier than expected. Not impossible, but not expected. The waiting only began after the time he was expected began and that was only 1,775 years ago.

How is this date calculated? I know how the date of 29 C.E. was calculated as being when the Messiah was due to arrive (the year Jesus presented himself for water baptism), but not this other date.

 

[Tumah]

How is this date calculated? I know how the date of 29 C.E. was calculated as being when the Messiah was due to arrive (the year Jesus presented himself for water baptism), but not this other date.

From certain Talmudic statements.
29 CE is your calculation, not ours.

 

[ameraz1]

For Baha'is the prophecies concerning the second coming of Christ were fulfilled in 1844 in Shiraz with the declaration of the Bab (Siyyid Ali Muhammad) that He was the Mahdi and Qa'im ... this tied in the Islamic and Christian expectations... Muslims expecting the return of Jesus and Christians as well.

Two movements also sprang from this period around 1844...the Adventist movement from William Miller and the Shaykhi movement from Shaykh Ahmad Ahsai in Iran and Iraq.

I believe Bahaullah’s claim is not to prophethood or Messiah in the manner it is narrated in prophecy in the Judaic and Islamic traditions. I believe his claim is a novelty being the foretold manifestation of God. I believe the Bahai doctrine claims that the prophetic cycle (Dur-i-nabuwwat) from Adam to Muhammad is passed and now in the day of the Lord, Bahaullah is the great news (Naba-i-Azim) that will fill the earth with the glory of God.

So, it appears that this is not prophethood in the typical Judeo-Christian-Islamic sense. And certainly does not appear to be an idea conforming to the second coming of Christ which would be a Messiah and a prophet as expounded by Muhammad (pbuh) and the Islamic tradition. The Islamic sense of prophethood is strictly human as exhorted by Quran and Muhammad (pbuh).

Here it is also important to shed some light on the Shaykhi sect of Shia Islam from which Bahai faith emerged, this sect has had this ideology of divine-humans before the claims of Bab and Bahaullah. This is not an Islamic ideology and I believe the sect was treated heretical on this basis in the Islamic tradition.

Again, the Bahai argument of the age of the Glory of God be as it may, I don’t feel it can applied to the concept of the Second Coming of Christ. The prophecies of Muhammad (pbuh) are heavily centered on the terminology of the Jesus, Son of Mary-- and his people falling into a parallel with events that overtook the Jews.

Do you have any references directly from Bahaullah's writings that he is a prophet in the historical context and specifically the Messiah termed to be the 2nd coming of Christ?

 

[ameraz1]

If he would have come before the Temple was destroyed he would have been coming earlier than expected. Not impossible, but not expected. The waiting only began after the time he was expected began and that was only 1,775 years ago.

Ah! I see, my 3000 year reference is approx. to around when Judaism started which is not accurate I think as to when the earliest prophecy about the Messiah was dispensed. Is it Isaiah where the first ones are found? Would that make it ~2,500 years ago?

 

[Kolibri]

29 CE is your calculation, not ours.

Sorry, I did not mean for it be understood as if it was "yours." Just that it can be calculated as such off of how Dan 9's 70 weeks prophesy can be understood - not specifically how Jews today understand it.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Btw, if you are of the Hindu persuasion then same goes for the Kalki Avataar of Sri Krishan-- he said that he will return during the kaali yurg, which many believe is occurring now.

Yes, he will come but only after 427,000 years, i.e., towards the end of Kaliyuga. The fortunate thing is that he is not in competition with any of the scores of Abrahamic messengers, manifestations or messiahs.

 

[ameraz1]

Yes, he will come but only after 427,000 years, i.e., towards the end of Kaliyuga. The fortunate thing is that he is not in competition with any of the scores of Abrahamic messengers, manifestations or messiahs.

What good would it do for him to come after 427,000 years at the end?? In the Bhagavad Gita 4:7-8, in the famous chant Krishna gives prophecy that he himself will descend every time irreligion abounds to deliver the pious ones and annihilate evil. We believe that is now and that Krishna has already made the Kalki Avatar as Ghulam Ahmad (pbuh). That is not something that happens once in 427,000 years.

If you would like to read more literature about the prophecy according to Hindu texts, I can post a reference.

We believe Krishna was a prophet of Allah in a rational and historical manner who later came to be worshiped as a deity. The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) has mentioned Krishna by name as "Kahina", a prophet from India (ref: Tarikhe Hamda, Babul Kaaf)

 

[arthra]

The prophecies of the Kalkin avatara are interesting I think as are those of the Maitreya Buddha ...

Per Sri Yukteshwar's calculation,... Kali Yuga has ended.
Kali yuga started in AD 500 and ended in AD1700.

Note to Ameraz.. I was suggesting the Bab was the fulfillment of both Christian and Islamic prophecies at the juncture around 1844 AD and the same date 1260 AH in the Islamic calendar... You may as an Ahmadi not accept the origins or background of the Baha'i dispensation... It's your choice!

You are correct in your statement:

"I believe the Bahai doctrine claims that the prophetic cycle from Adam to Muhammad is passed and now in the day of the Lord, Bahaullah is the great news that will fill the earth with the glory of God."

To understand the fulfillment of the prophecies in Islam and Christianity requires a knowledge of the Millerite movement as well as some knowledge of the expectation of the Mahdi and Qa'im. The expectation of the Mahdi and the return of the Twelfth Imam was based on the disappearance of the twelfth Imam in 260 AH and the thousand years for the reappeance are lunar years to 1260 AH.