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Fine Tuning argument / The best argument for the existence of God

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Taking a quantum of super compressed unified energy and making a claim that this looks like something "tuned for life" is what would be wrong.
"Taking a quantum of super compressed unified energy" is at best something borrowed from popular physics oversimplifications and is more likely just nonsense. Fine-tuning is a fact:
“The fine-tuning of our existence, as encoded in our current best (effective) physical theories—such as the standard models of particle physics and cosmology—is a striking putative fact.”
Azhar, F., & Loeb, A. (2018). Gauging fine-tuning. Physical Review D, 98(10), 103018.

The Big Bang should have created equal amounts of matter and antimatter in the early universe.
Why? Careful- you're dangerously close to (probably unknowingly) making an argument from fine-tuning.
Again, same problem. we already see mathematics embedded in the universe.
We don't. At all. Any more than we see god (and both have been "seen" in the universe in pretty much the same way for centuries).

No, they are not. The early universe was a quantum system.
All physical systems are quantum systems.
There is no way you can take this and say it looks like something tuned for life.
I don't. This is what many cosmologists and other theoretical physicists do. It is quite obviously true in many cases and is trivially true in others. Also, you are mistaking probabilistic structures and statistical distributions with epistemic and ontological uncertainty, not to mention mistaking predictive capabilities with the nature of physical laws and the structure of physical theories. Quantum theory is a physical theory, and it is precisely because we know how it works and how to use it to make predictions with unheard of accuracy that we require fine-tuning in the more restrictive senses that we tend to use in particle physics (which overlaps with usages by cosmologists and in cosmology). In particular, RG group flows and renormalization schemes in HEP require operational fine-tuning that include those uses of "fine-tuning problems" one sees in the cosmology literature.
You cannot make future predictions and say what the future state will be once it expands.
Wrong. Actually, in general the evolution of systems in QM is completely deterministic. A central feature of the measurement problem is that the theory requires (barring unorthodox views like Bohmian mechanics) two distinct types of state evolution. But the evolution involving random "jumps" and statistical distributions involves observation or measurement. Otherwise the system's evolution is unitary and deterministic.

But we know universes are possible. Gods are made up fiction.
We don't know universes are possible. Actually, they are basically impossible by definition. But we don't know that gods or universes are possible, we just have a long history of physics inspired by theistic and deistic belies and principles that remain today despite the increasingly secular growth of science in general and physics in particular.
We don't know there is a multiverse but it's a reasonable hypothesis.
It's a ridiculous hypothesis that is made almost purely in order to grant some kind of explanation that doesn't invoke the more traditional one that is behind the founding of much of physics: God. Not Zeus or other myths, but that of Newton, Galileo, etc. And I'm not a believer, so you don't have to try and convince me we lack convincing evidence for such a deity.

Yes one line of evidence is the idea that the physical laws may evolve and vary which would explain why this universe is what it is.
It wouldn't, and this explanation is often seen as an alternative to mutiverse cosmologies. It is like God- it explains nothing but does allow people who are uncomfortable with fine-tuning and naturalness problems to recover a metaphysical principle (e.g., the cosmological principle or the principle of mediocrity).

I cannot believe you would call the multiverse "speculative pleading"? This is apologist nonsense.
Actually, it is admitted by many of the proponents of this nonsense. It is obviously speculative as there is no evidence for it other than that e.g., our universe seems to be too special for comfort. To quote again from a proponent:
"Despite the growing popularity of the multiverse proposal, it must be admitted that many physicists remain deeply uncomfortable with it. The reason is clear: the idea is highly speculative and, from both a cosmological and a particle physics perspective, the reality of a multiverse is currently untestable...For these reasons, some physicists do not regard these ideas as coming under the purvey of science at all. Since our confidence in them is based on faith and aesthetic considerations (for example mathematical beauty) rather than experimental data, they regard them as having more in common with religion than science... Indeed, Paul Davies regards the concept of a multiverse as just as metaphysical as that of a Creator who fine-tuned a single universe for our existence"
from the editor's introduction to Carr, B. (Ed.). (2007). Universe or multiverse?. Cambridge University Press.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
LOL, oh my god. Another epic fail. There is scientific evidence for the theory of evolution.
That is just an assertion

[E]Here is a learning opportunity for you. Since you do not understand the concept of evidence are you willing to have a discussion so that you will not repeat this error of yours?
A discussion on what?
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
I did in the past. If you start acknowledging your errors I will do so again. Otherwise it is simply a waste of my time. People that are willing to have a proper discussion can make demands. Those that don't will simply have to wait. Or do their homework and find the earlier posts.
Aja so exactly what are you expecting from me?
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
The best "solution" is to admit that there are problems that one does not know the answer to. That is all. Trying to claim that there is a FT problem is unwarranted and not supported by the evidence. The evidence only points to currently unanswered questions.

Not knowing the answer doest prevents you from:

1 readining the literature on the topic

2 reading about the "solutions that have been proposed

3 selecting the one that you think is the best solution given our current data

4 explaining /justifying... Why is that solution better than design
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
I don't know what "tuned to the 10^120" means.

T means...... If the cosmological constant would have been one part in 10^120 stronger or weaker the universe would have evolved in a life prohibitting universe.


No, by my reading, that's the whole argument. It's entirely relevant.

Edit: I mean, at the one extreme end of what might be the case: if every single possible combination of all the constants for the universe is compatible with life, then the fact we have life wouldn't be special at all.

My point is that it doesn't matter if these values where given by a random event (the values could have been different)........... or by a deterministic event (the values where predetermined by a bunch of prior phenomenon and could have notbeen different)

The FT argument woukd worjk in ether scenario


I can do these simulations? I don't think I'm in a position to do them. I'm not even sure where I could find the software to run a simulation like that.

Have you done this?
No you cant do them, but brilliant scientists can.... You can simoly trust their conclusions
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Not knowing the answer doest prevents you from:

1 readining the literature on the topic

2 reading about the "solutions that have been proposed

3 selecting the one that you think is the best solution given our current data

4 explaining /justifying... Why is that solution better than design
Numbers 1 and 2 are reasonable. To do number 3 one needs some serious education. One also needs some honesty. And you completely fail at number 4 indicating that you were unprepared to attempt number 3.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
T means...... If the cosmological constant would have been one part in 10^120 stronger or weaker the universe would have evolved in a life prohibitting universe.
A quick Googling suggests to me that physicists have only been able to estimate the Cosmological Constant to a precision of about 1 part in 53.

But you apparently estimated it with phenomenally greater precision? Well done! Your lab must be one of the best on Earth!

If you're basing this claim on anything real and haven't just pulled it out of your butt (or aren't just parroting someone who pulled it out of their butt) then I look forward to seeing you properly acknowledged for your work with a Nobel Prize.

My point is that it doesn't matter if these values where given by a random event (the values could have been different)........... or by a deterministic event (the values where predetermined by a bunch of prior phenomenon and could have notbeen different)

The FT argument woukd worjk in ether scenario
Again: I don't think that's true.

No you cant do them, but brilliant scientists can.... You can simoly trust their conclusions
Which brilliant scientists did the simulations you're relying on? Please be specific.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
An honest attempt to learn from your errors. That is not unreasonable in the sciences.
I honestly what to learn form my errors , that is why I asked you specifically about what error are you talking about………. And your response was… I won’t tell you because…. “quack quack quack”
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I honestly what to learn form my errors , that is why I asked you specifically about what error are you talking about………. And your response was… I won’t tell you because…. “quack quack quack”
Now look at that. Was than an honest response? No one believes you when you make this sort of claim. An apology for past behavior would be in order. Just acknowledge the obvious. Your claims have been refuted time and time again. You have used bad sources or misused sources that you do not understand, . A major change is needed.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Numbers 1 and 2 are reasonable. To do number 3 one needs some serious education. One also needs some honesty. And you completely fail at number 4 indicating that you were unprepared to attempt number 3.
It is true that us as lay man we are not qualified to answer “3” with any degree of certainty………but you can do your best based on the knowledge you have and keep an open mind ………..
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
It is true that us as lay man we are not qualified to answer “3” with any degree of certainty………but you can do your best based on the knowledge you have and keep an open mind ………..
Keeping an open mind is fine. If you had one you would not make claims about a fine tuning problem. There seriously does not appear to be one if you talk to modern physicists.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Now look at that. Was than an honest response? No one believes you when you make this sort of claim. An apology for past behavior would be in order. Just acknowledge the obvious. Your claims have been refuted time and time again. You have used bad sources or misused sources that you do not understand, . A major change is needed.
More ridiculous excuses to avoid direct answers??????? Shame on you

1 You said that I made some errors but you are not willing to quote them

2 you said that took the sources out of context, but you don’t justify that accusation

3 you said that my claims have been refuted, but you are unable to quote a single claim of mine that was refuted

Grow up, stop acting like a 10yo,
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
More ridiculous excuses to avoid direct answers??????? Shame on you

1 You said that I made some errors but you are not willing to quote them

2 you said that took the sources out of context, but you don’t justify that accusation

3 you said that my claims have been refuted, but you are unable to quote a single claim of mine that was refuted

Grow up, stop acting like a 10yo,
Nope, When someone cannot be honest there is no point in trying to help them. You lost the ability to demand anything. Or did you forget how you treated the last link that I gave you that you requested.

You are projecting again.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Nope, When someone cannot be honest there is no point in trying to help them. You lost the ability to demand anything. Or did you forget how you treated the last link that I gave you that you requested.

You are projecting again.
which link are you talking about?

the one on ERVs?
Obviously I was being sarcastic; I was using your own “tactics” to avoid the argument on ERVs.

If a YEC claims that you are wrong about ERVs you would naturally expect him to quote and explain exactly where are you wrong…so that you can defend your position / It would be deshonest to simple say “ohh you took the article out of context” without any justification.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
leroy said:
Well what exactly do you mean by “FT problem “?
What? Where did I say that?

You said that scientists dont see a FT problem………..I am just asking what is your understanding of “FT problem” perhaps we are talking about different things


Subduction Zone said:
Keeping an open mind is fine. If you had one you would not make claims about a fine tuning problem. There seriously does not appear to be one if you talk to modern physicists.
When you say that there is not a FT problem exactly what do you mean by FT problem?
 
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Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
which link are you talking about?

the one on ERVs?
Obviously I was being sarcastic; I was using your own “tactics” to avoid the argument on ERVs.

If a YEC claims that you are wrong about ERVs you would naturally expect him to quote and explain exactly where are you wrong…so that you can defend your position / It would be deshonest to simple say “ohh you took the article out of context” without any justification.
No, you were being a jerk.

I gave you conditions. Until you meet them you are in no position to demand anything.
 
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