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In Science We Trust

F1fan

Veteran Member
No, it is natural as how to it is a consequence of human psychology and then relative to knowledge and technology. And there is no as a whole in religion.
This is also a religion: Unitarian Universalist Association | UUA.org
That organizations use their access to volunteers and decide to do good in the community isn't necessarily religious. Sports clubs use their organizations to do public good as well.

Theists are not the only religious people. Here is a scholarly academic definition of religion:
"Religion is the most intensive and comprehensive method of valuing that is experienced by humankind."
The Definition of Religion
Theists are by definition religious.

That religion has historically been a means for value for developing civilizations does not mean they set values from a supernatural perspective.

And here is another definition: religion | Definition, Types, List of Religions, Symbols, Examples, & Facts

And here is a religion that fits those two definitions:
"...
Definitions
Atheism is the comprehensive world view of persons who are free from theism and have freed themselves of supernatural beliefs altogether. It is predicated on ancient Greek Materialism.
Atheism involves the mental attitude that unreservedly accepts the supremacy of reason and aims at establishing a life-style and ethical outlook verifiable by experience and the scientific method, independent of all arbitrary assumptions of authority and creeds.
Materialism declares that the cosmos is devoid of immanent conscious purpose; that it is governed by its own inherent, immutable, and impersonal laws; that there is no supernatural interference in human life; that humankind, finding the resources within themselves, can and must create their own destiny. It teaches that we must prize our life on earth and strive always to improve it. It holds that human beings are capable of creating a social system based on reason and justice. Materialism’s ‘faith’ is in humankind and their ability to transform the world culture by their own efforts. This is a commitment that is, in its very essence, life-asserting. It considers the struggle for progress as a moral obligation that is impossible without noble ideas that inspire us to bold, creative works. Materialism holds that our potential for good and more fulfilling cultural development is, for all practical purposes, unlimited.
"
Our Vision

So those of us, who use more than just natural science as science can have a different opinion. And some of us are still atheists.
Sure, your category of people might have religious assumptions. As long as you get your science right, and don't allow religious belief to influence science, you will be ok.
 
I don't think that's funny. I think that's logical.
Especially when talking in context of the natural sciences, which is almost always the case on platforms such as this one... what with all the evolution deniers, noah flood believers, dating method deniers, etc. :rolleyes:

What is funny is that when I said the natural sciences were far more reliable than the some other sciences and we should be far more sceptical of findings in the latter, several posters found something objectionable about it.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
That organizations use their access to volunteers and decide to do good in the community isn't necessarily religious. Sports clubs use their organizations to do public good as well.


Theists are by definition religious.

That religion has historically been a means for value for developing civilizations does not mean they set values from a supernatural perspective.


Sure, your category of people might have religious assumptions. As long as you get your science right, and don't allow religious belief to influence science, you will be ok.

Yeah, so what is science?
Philosophy of science - Wikipedia

I mean I come from a culture, where natural science is not science. It is one of the 7 overall categories of knowledge.
Now if you analyse the assumption behind naturalism as related to natural science, what do you notize?
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Take an educated guess then, it's not rocket science.
This illustrates the difference between you and me. You want to make guesses. I want facts and data before I make a decision.

How does one become an expert in something? Now which people are in the best position to gain this experience ethical scientists, or the unethical ones who help athletes to cheat?
University. Hard studying.

You miss the point. I said that elite athletes and their doping doctors are not naive about the benefits of EPO as they have exponentially more evidence and data than the guy who conducted the study.
This is another guess on your part. In the early 90's when EPO was being used what data did doctors have that showed it will benefit athletic performance? There was none.

The doctors had to use data from cancer patients and assume it will benefit an athlete. Let's note that higher hematocrit levels tends to be an advantage for endurance athletes.


The researcher said EPO doesn't work. Tumbling endurance records in multiple sports when people started taking it says it most likely does work.
First, the results stated it works in the lab tests. As I have stated TWICE now you are overlooking the psychological effect in the "set of the pants' experience of athletes. You've not stated any sort of personal experience of being an endurance athlete so are at liability in understanding how crucial this is. Second you seem to be naive about the massive advances in technology today versus the past. In 1983 the top of the line road bike was about $2000. Today the average road racing bike costs about $10,000. My BMC TeamMachine listed at $9850 two years ago. Of course racers get deals. Think of these as the Ferrari of bicycles. These advances has meant faster times. Better nutrition and sports training has also benefitted athlete in recent years.



My point is the benefits of PEDs are not simply placebo, and evidence suggests this is true for EPO too.
The only way to know is more testing with more specific parameters under control.


Understanding the benefits of PEDs v natural differences between elite athletes is very good data.

The best sprinter in history winning sprints against a weak field after a period out injured is not a magical mid-career transformation though.

A mid-career transformation is Lance, or Froome going from the brink of losing his job to the greatest stage racer of his generation basically instantly
I think you have a poorly informed belief here. There are many examples of athletes coming back to success after a period of poor results.



Both massive dopers
Irrelevant. The more a pro wins the more scrutiny and testing they are subject to. Lance was caught numerous times, but the UCI covered it up. No other athlete got that sort of cover.



Where you on the Lance train till the bitter end? "Most tested athlete in the world!" "I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles".

The evidence is they destroy other elite athletes who are massive dopers in sports where doping makes a big difference.
You sound like you have an ax to grind. I don't defend any dopers. Lance was targeted more than any other. The reason the 7 years he won the TdF is because doping was so rampant that they couldn't declare a clean winner. In a sense it was fair racing given most of the peloton was likely doping.



That's the point.

Doping doctors and athletes test them in competition every single race. They almost certainly know better
"Seat of the pants" tests. It's not as if every athlete doping wins. If you dope and win you are likely to keep doping.

Look at Tyler Hamilton's experiences with doping. He claimed clear advantages. Betsy Andreu said she couldn't believe her husband Frankie could keep up with climbers in one year during the TdF. She confronted him about doping and he was, and he quit. So yes there is "seat of the pants" benefits. We don't know what is going on exactly since these tests are not controlled.

I can see how a drug can help an athlete push harder in training and competition, which only causes more damage and fatigue, so a short term benefit that the athlete needs more recovery from.

So there is no "one size fits all" conclusion.


Christ you're naive.
That's no way to talk about Jesus.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Yeah, so what is science?
Philosophy of science - Wikipedia

I mean I come from a culture, where natural science is not science. It is one of the 7 overall categories of knowledge.
Now if you analyse the assumption behind naturalism as related to natural science, what do you notize?
You have a bad habit of trying to redefine things in very abstract terms, which doesn't really help anyone understand the topic.

What is science? It what allows you to live outside of a mud hut, and not be dead because your life expectancy is only about 30 years.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
You have a bad habit of trying to redefine things in very abstract terms, which doesn't really help anyone understand the topic.

What is science? It what allows you to live outside of a mud hut, and not be dead because your life expectancy is only about 30 years.

Yeah, and learn how different people cope with live as per Maslow's hierarchy of needs. You only covered 2 stages. Or other parts of how to live beside physical needs.
Basically you have reduced human life down to physical needs.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Yeah, and learn how different people cope with live as per Maslow's hierarchy of needs. You only covered 2 stages. Or other parts of how to live beside physical needs.
Basically you have reduced human life down to physical needs.
No. Science allows humans to live through ALL the set of needs. Without science you are basically an animal fighting for survival of the fittest.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
No. Science allows humans to live through ALL the set of needs. Without science you are basically an animal fighting for survival of the fittest.

And you can show with science, that that is bad? BTW the correct version is reproduction of the fittest gene.
 
Oh, there's no pattern? No ongoing problem with this issue in science? It's just one example you stumbled on and you posted it?

The is a problems that many sciences have terrible replication rates if that's what you mean.

Do you agree?
 
Assuming we can give credence to the claim and the stat, I think that answers itself doesn't it? Just a couple of thoughts, what methodology did you use to arrive at those rates of failures? Are you saying you've got access to a method superior to science, but that is in fact not part of the scientific method? Oh I know the method doesn't exist, I'm afraid that strikes me as sophistry sorry.

Also, what happens to the reputation of scientists who produce that level of retractions after peer review, and to whoever peer reviewed the work? I mean how do you imagine credible scientists view kent Hovind's PhD he purchased from the creation movement? What about the creation institute, do think that is science?

Wow you avoided answering the questions again. That's a surprise.

Answer them and I'll answer yours.

So a branch of science is producing a high level of retractions, that makes that branch by definition unreliable, so that means their methods are less reliable than other branches of science no, is anyone here defending sloppy methods, and failures? I just don't accept that this is as widespread as some here seem to want to claim.

Recent work has suggested that the replicability of social-science research may be disturbingly low (Baker, 2016). For instance, several systematic high-powered replication projects have demonstrated successful replication rates ranging from 36% (Open Science Collaboration, 2015) to 50% (Klein et al., 2018), 62% (Camerer et al., 2018), and 85% (Klein et al., 2014). These low replication rates have been explained by several factors that operate at different levels. At the level of the scientific field as a whole, problems include publication bias (Francis, 2013) and perverse incentive structures (Giner-Sorolla, 2012). At the level of individual studies, problems concern low statistical power (Button et al., 2013; Ioannidis, 2005) and questionable research practices, such as data-driven flexibility in statistical analysis (i.e., significance seeking; John, Loewenstein, & Prelec, 2012; Simmons, Nelson, & Simonsohn, 2011; Wagenmakers, Wetzels, Borsboom, & van der Maas, 2011). Here we focus on yet another problem that has recently been associated with poor replicability: the a priori implausibility of the research hypothesis (Benjamin et al., 2018; Ioannidis, 2005).

SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class research journals
 
This illustrates the difference between you and me. You want to make guesses. I want facts and data before I make a decision.

The idea that until an expert tells us what to think in a scientific study we are unable to make a probabilistic judgement based on masses of evidence is something we disagree on.

University. Hard studying.

Another thing we disagree on.

You think credentials make the expert. I'd back real world experience and demonstrated sucess as being the hallmark or exertise.

This is another guess on your part. In the early 90's when EPO was being used what data did doctors have that showed it will benefit athletic performance? There was none.

See, a non-expert made a probabilistic judgement that EPO would benefit athletic performance before having any 'proof and data' from an expert to tell him he should do it.

But you miss the point again, once people started taking it, they gathered masses of data on its impact on performance.

This is the evidence you ignore.

First, the results stated it works in the lab tests. As I have stated TWICE now you are overlooking the psychological effect in the "set of the pants' experience of athletes. You've not stated any sort of personal experience of being an endurance athlete so are at liability in understanding how crucial this is. Second you seem to be naive about the massive advances in technology today versus the past. In 1983 the top of the line road bike was about $2000. Today the average road racing bike costs about $10,000. My BMC TeamMachine listed at $9850 two years ago. Of course racers get deals. Think of these as the Ferrari of bicycles. These advances has meant faster times. Better nutrition and sports training has also benefitted athlete in recent years.

You are overlooking that people with far better data than you who know far more about pro-cycling than you believed it very much was more than a placebo.

People don't ride bikes in athletics which also saw massive performance gains and tumbling world records at exactly the time EPO started to be used.

Most of these athletes were doping prior to EPO anyway, so why does EPO provide a "super-placebo" effect and why did this decline when EPO testing appeared?

The only way to know is more testing with more specific parameters under control.

Until that point though, we can still be pretty confident EPO works very well on elite endurance athletes.

I think you have a poorly informed belief here. There are many examples of athletes coming back to success after a period of poor results.

You are again missing the point.

Magical transformations mid-career are not 'a return to form', they are performance that has no connection with what happened before and are thus highly likely to be the result of doping rather than anything else.

Armstrong, Froome, Wiggins, etc.


"Seat of the pants" tests. It's not as if every athlete doping wins. If you dope and win you are likely to keep doping.

Look at Tyler Hamilton's experiences with doping. He claimed clear advantages. Betsy Andreu said she couldn't believe her husband Frankie could keep up with climbers in one year during the TdF. She confronted him about doping and he was, and he quit. So yes there is "seat of the pants" benefits. We don't know what is going on exactly since these tests are not controlled.

I can see how a drug can help an athlete push harder in training and competition, which only causes more damage and fatigue, so a short term benefit that the athlete needs more recovery from.

So there is no "one size fits all" conclusion.

Not every athlete doping wins, but most athletes who win are doping.

There is a reason for this. PEDs enhance performance in all kinds of sports.

That's no way to talk about Jesus.

You seriously believe that peer-review catches almost all errors?
 
Oh, there's no pattern? No ongoing problem with this issue in science? It's just one example you stumbled on and you posted it?

Posted something from this to another poster earlier, but actually you might be interested in this


Laypeople Can Predict Which Social-Science Studies Will Be Replicated Successfully

Large-scale collaborative projects recently demonstrated that several key findings from the social-science literature could not be replicated successfully. Here, we assess the extent to which a finding’s replication success relates to its intuitive plausibility. Each of 27 high-profile social-science findings was evaluated by 233 people without a Ph.D. in psychology. Results showed that these laypeople predicted replication success with above-chance accuracy (i.e., 59%). In addition, when participants were informed about the strength of evidence from the original studies, this boosted their prediction performance to 67%. We discuss the prediction patterns and apply signal detection theory to disentangle detection ability from response bias. Our study suggests that laypeople’s predictions contain useful information for assessing the probability that a given finding will be replicated successfully...

In this study, our primary aim was to investigate whether and to what extent accurate predictions of replicability can be generated by people without a Ph.D. in psychology or other professional background in the social sciences (i.e., laypeople) and without access to the statistical evidence obtained in the original study. Laypeople may be able to reliably evaluate the plausibility of research hypotheses (and hence reliably predict replication outcomes), even without access to relevant statistical information or in-depth knowledge of the literature. After all, social science concerns itself with constructs that are often accessible and interesting to a lay audience (Milkman & Berger, 2014). Consequently, when presented with a nontechnical description of a study’s topic, operationalization, and result, laypeople may well be able to produce accurate replicability forecasts.

SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class research journals


Funny that if non-experts have no means of evaluating the claims of experts

thinking-face_1f914.png
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Wow you avoided answering the questions again. That's a surprise.

Answer them and I'll answer yours.



Recent work has suggested that the replicability of social-science research may be disturbingly low (Baker, 2016). For instance, several systematic high-powered replication projects have demonstrated successful replication rates ranging from 36% (Open Science Collaboration, 2015) to 50% (Klein et al., 2018), 62% (Camerer et al., 2018), and 85% (Klein et al., 2014). These low replication rates have been explained by several factors that operate at different levels. At the level of the scientific field as a whole, problems include publication bias (Francis, 2013) and perverse incentive structures (Giner-Sorolla, 2012). At the level of individual studies, problems concern low statistical power (Button et al., 2013; Ioannidis, 2005) and questionable research practices, such as data-driven flexibility in statistical analysis (i.e., significance seeking; John, Loewenstein, & Prelec, 2012; Simmons, Nelson, & Simonsohn, 2011; Wagenmakers, Wetzels, Borsboom, & van der Maas, 2011). Here we focus on yet another problem that has recently been associated with poor replicability: the a priori implausibility of the research hypothesis (Benjamin et al., 2018; Ioannidis, 2005).

SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class research journals


So isn't that the scientific method broadly being used to ascertain what you call a failure in the scientific method? Would you prefer I substituted the word research for method? To me this seem again to come under the heading of science like all human methods, is fallible, as human methods cannot be otherwise?

Your question was too generic, since you offered little in the way of context beyond broad swipes, so I can't offer an opinion, obviously. To me what you are showing is a method that is necessarily not infallible, correcting errors when the evidence dictates, that to me seems to be describing part of the scientific method.

I was on a forum once, and a poster was decrying science in favour of all manner of unevidenced crackpot fantasies. This poster to show that science wasn't credible cited Lysenko, now I was at that time only vaguely aware of the example, So intrigued but sceptical, I checked into what was being claimed against the facts. He was basically citing an example of pseudoscience, decried almost universally by credible scientists, many of who Stalin had imprisoned or killed for their troubles.

The point is we only knew that the very example he offered was pseudoscience, because science works and had demonstrated this, and I can't be sure as you're offering only broad stats, but that seems to be the case here. So far other than psychology, what fields of science are you saying we should lessen our trust in, and why?
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Large-scale collaborative projects recently demonstrated that several key findings from the social-science literature could not be replicated successfully.
Now me being an uneducated old duffer, perhaps you can explain something to me, is that an indictment of the scientific method in general, or of the methods as they were applied here? I mean this appears to be sloppy work no? Or are you saying the method as applied simply isn't reliable in some areas of study?

Parenthetically if "laymen" have demonstrated through rigorous testing that the results are unreliable because they could not be replicated under the same testing criteria, that sounds an awful lot to me like scientific peer review, so whilst we could ask why this work passed peer review in the first place, I don't think the method is at fault, merely it's application, like the Lysenko example of course.

Any thoughts?
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Armstrong, Froome, Wiggins, etc.
Not to be pedantic, but we only have sufficient evidence that one of those resorted to doping. Now please don't make an appeal to ignorance fallacy, I am not making a contrary claim, merely cautioning that correlation is not sufficient here.
 
So isn't that the scientific method broadly being used to ascertain what you call a failure in the scientific method? Would you prefer I substituted the word research for method? To me this seem again to come under the heading of science like all human methods, is fallible, as human methods cannot be otherwise?

"The scientific method" doesn't exist, it is a simplification taught to children.

Also it makes far more sense to talk of the sciences

Now me being an uneducated old duffer, perhaps you can explain something to me, is that an indictment of the scientific method in general, or of the methods as they were applied here? I mean this appears to be sloppy work no? Or are you saying the method as applied simply isn't reliable in some areas of study?

I'm saying that different sciences vary wildly in the accuracy and reliability of their results. This is not due to "sloppy work", but because the methods of science are far less effective in some domains than others.

Agreed?

I don't think the method is at fault, merely it's application

Well that a method has to be applied by very fallible humans is certainly a weakness, but it's not simply that.

The methods work far better in non-complex domains than complex ones as reductionism is not possible. Hence the problems in domains like psychology and other social sciences, economics, neuroscience, medical sciences, etc.

Complex in this sense btw, not simply 'complicated': Complex system - Wikipedia
 
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