paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Now, please substantiate that:
- Quran verse 9:111 is a stand alone verse
- and it is wrong to understand it from the its context verses (some verses preceding and some following).
Regards
-
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My first post
- Thread starter Come2thelight
- Start date
Regards
stevecanuck
Well-Known Member
Sorry, but I answered your question quite clearly. If you don't understand or accept it, that's okay. If you disagree with anything I've said, I'm going to leave it to you to show me how I'm in error.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
It is clear wrong , I understand, to take the Verses of Quran in stand alone position and or insist on doing it, as sometimes and or most of the times or almost always the verses of Quran are best and correctly understood if these are taken in the context where these are/were arranged/compiled as per the revelation from G-d in Muhammad's time.
Is it difficult for one to understand, and or asking to much from one, please?
Kindly don't be angry, please. Right?
Regards
stevecanuck
Well-Known Member
I'm not angry, and I'm sorry I gave you that impression.
We disagree very much about this issue. Let's take another example - the last line of 2:98, "Allah is an enemy to disbelievers". Context can tell you everything you need to know leading up to the statement, but nothing can ever change what it means.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
stevecanuck said: ↑
paarsurrey said: ↑
It is clear wrong , I understand, to take the Verses of Quran in stand alone position and or insist on doing it, as sometimes and or most of the times or almost always the verses of Quran are best and correctly understood if these are taken in the context where these are/were arranged/compiled as per the revelation from G-d in Muhammad's time.
Is it difficult for one to understand, and or asking to much from one, please?
Kindly don't be angry, please. Right?
The phrase " عَدُوٌّ لِّلۡکٰفِرِیۡنَ" translated in English as " to such disbelievers" or "to the disbelievers" points to and suggests that "لِّلۡ " containing "two lams" , the last "lam" has alif (hidden) and this alif+lam stand for and is, therefore, for the aforementioned/specific disbelievers and is not to be generalized for every disbeliever, please. Does one get the point. please. Right?
Regards
paarsurrey said: ↑
It is clear wrong , I understand, to take the Verses of Quran in stand alone position and or insist on doing it, as sometimes and or most of the times or almost always the verses of Quran are best and correctly understood if these are taken in the context where these are/were arranged/compiled as per the revelation from G-d in Muhammad's time.
Is it difficult for one to understand, and or asking to much from one, please?
Kindly don't be angry, please. Right?
Now one comes to a phrase/part of a verse (2:98) ignoring even the complete/entire or the rest of the verse , not to speak of the context and all the verses preceding and following the verse in question. Why do it and insist to do it, please? What is the compulsion in one's mind, please? Kindly ponder over it and let us know, only then one's misgiving/s could be corrected. Right?
The phrase " عَدُوٌّ لِّلۡکٰفِرِیۡنَ" translated in English as " to such disbelievers" or "to the disbelievers" points to and suggests that "لِّلۡ " containing "two lams" , the last "lam" has alif (hidden) and this alif+lam stand for and is, therefore, for the aforementioned/specific disbelievers and is not to be generalized for every disbeliever, please. Does one get the point. please. Right?
Regards
stevecanuck
Well-Known Member
That was the whole point. I said I was giving you an example that didn't even require quoting the whole verse.
I keep explaining this, and you keep missing the point. I'm doing it to prove that the words mean what they say, regardless of context.
I'm not anywhere near fluent in Arabic, but I do know a bit about using alif-lam ("the" in English). It is frequently used in syntax that's completely different from English. For example, the greeting that we translate as, "Good morning", which is, "SabaH al kheer" literally translates to, "Morning the great". You can't use English syntax to explain an Arabic meaning.
Also, the seven translations of 2:98 in corpus.quran.com use the generic, rather than specific, meaning of disbeliever:
Sahih International: ... Allah is an enemy to the disbelievers.
Pickthall: ... Allah (Himself) is an enemy to the disbelievers.
Yusuf Ali: ... Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith.
Shakir: ... Allah is the enemy of the unbelievers.
Muhammad Sarwar: ... God is the enemy of those who hide the Truth..
Mohsin Khan: ... Allah is an enemy to the disbelievers."
Arberry: ... God is an enemy to the unbelievers.'
Audie
Veteran Member
Audie
Veteran Member
Everyone thinks they are gifted with infallible
powers to read their CHOSEN " sacred book"
correctly.
Such claims only fool the onrs making the claim.
No amount of. " right, please" is going to help.
muhammad_isa
Veteran Member
G-d guides whomsoever He wills.
You are free to disbelieve.
Personally, I am not able to disbelieve, and I'm glad about that.
..and G-d knows best.
Audie
Veteran Member
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
One may like to read my post #125 in another thread which in a way is related to the discussion here, my friend. (Note, I have not used, please or right in response to one's post). OK?
Regards
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
paarsurrey ↑
The phrase " عَدُوٌّ لِّلۡکٰفِرِیۡنَ" translated in English as " to such disbelievers" or "to the disbelievers" points to and suggests that "لِّلۡ " containing "two lams" , the last "lam" has alif (hidden) and this alif+lam stand for and is, therefore, for the aforementioned/specific disbelievers and is not to be generalized for every disbeliever, please. Does one get the point. please. Right?
One's example did not substantiate one's point rather it was an incorrect one. It was one's choice.
I gave my arguments. I remain focused with the original Quran text in Arabic, as the translations are not Quran whoever the translators and whatever the translations.
If one cannot go deep in the text itself in one's example, then one can take help of the Arabic speaking atheists here or from elsewhere, I won't mind.
Else, start with another example but first quote the text of the verse of one's example with verses in the context , some (at least 5) verses preceding and ( at least 5 ) following. And kindly get prepared for going deep in the verse itself instead of switching to othe rverses. Right?
Regards
The phrase " عَدُوٌّ لِّلۡکٰفِرِیۡنَ" translated in English as " to such disbelievers" or "to the disbelievers" points to and suggests that "لِّلۡ " containing "two lams" , the last "lam" has alif (hidden) and this alif+lam stand for and is, therefore, for the aforementioned/specific disbelievers and is not to be generalized for every disbeliever, please. Does one get the point. please. Right?
One was to give examples. Right?
One's example did not substantiate one's point rather it was an incorrect one. It was one's choice.
I gave my arguments. I remain focused with the original Quran text in Arabic, as the translations are not Quran whoever the translators and whatever the translations.
If one cannot go deep in the text itself in one's example, then one can take help of the Arabic speaking atheists here or from elsewhere, I won't mind.
Else, start with another example but first quote the text of the verse of one's example with verses in the context , some (at least 5) verses preceding and ( at least 5 ) following. And kindly get prepared for going deep in the verse itself instead of switching to othe rverses. Right?
Regards
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
One may like to read my post #1032, and no compulsion in appreciating it friend. Got the point?
Regards
Sheldon
Veteran Member
Sorry, but I have no idea what you're question is asking, or what relevance you think it has to my post?
Sheldon
Veteran Member
I cannot do otherwise actually, since bare unevidenced claims of this type are meaningless.
Doubt is part of critical thinking, without one could literally believe anything.
Again bare unevidenced claims of this type are pretty meaningless.
paarsurrey
Veteran Member
Humans often need tools to ascertain reality/truth. To find truth in physical and material realms humans found out the Methodology of the famous "Scientific Method" not very long ago, hence the scientific progress of humans in recent centuries. Right?
To find truth in realms which are non-physical and non-material , I mean the ethical, moral and spiritual domains, will it be wrong to have some Methodology in this connection, please? Right?
If yes, what Methodology did one adopt to find truth among so many world-views/Religions/no-religions.
What Methodology did one adopt to reach to one's present stage, whatever, please?
Regards
Last edited:
stevecanuck
Well-Known Member
Also known as the 'gratuitous assertion'. All it ever deserves is an equally gratuitous denial.
Sheldon
Veteran Member
And this is relevant to my post that you responded to how exactly?
This was my response to claims made by another poster:
So again I'm not seeing how your response is relevant to my post?
stevecanuck
Well-Known Member
One did
The winning side of any argument should always be willing to expound further. Let me demonstrate. I summarized the Qur'an for my own use, and the following is what I wrote regarding the verse in question and surrounding verses from surah 2 when Mohamed was chastising the Jews of Yathrib. Remember, you asked for this, and all it does is showcase Allah's utter hatred for non-Muslims.
In verses 74-140, God's displeasure with Jews, and to a lesser extent, Christians, became evident in what can only be described as a diatribe. Apparently the Jews did not heed Mohamed's earlier directive (41) to accept the Qur'an as further divine revelation, as these verses damned them for failing to do so:
- 74 "Your hearts were hardened".
- 75 "They willfully distorted the word of god".
- 76 accuses Jews of lying about being true believers.
- 79-81 accuse Jews of tampering with scripture.
- 83-88 revisit sins of the past in extremely bitter and accusatory terms, "After this it is ye, the same people, who slay among yourselves, and banish a party of you from their homes and assist (Their enemies) against them ... Then is it only a part of the Book that ye believe in, and do ye reject the rest [the Qur'an]? ... but what is the reward for those among you who behave like this but disgrace in this life? ... and on the Day of Judgment they shall be consigned to the most grievous penalty ... These are the people who buy the life of this world at the price of the Hereafter: their penalty shall not be lightened nor shall they be helped ... And when there comes to them a Book from Allah [the Qur'an], confirming what is with them [the Bible], they refuse to believe in it, but the curse of Allah is on those without Faith. God has cursed them for their unbelief".
- 90 piles on further, "Miserable is the price for which they have sold their souls, in that they deny [the Qur'an] which Allah has sent down, in insolent envy that Allah of His Grace should send it to any of His servants He pleases: Thus have they drawn on themselves Wrath upon Wrath. And humiliating is the punishment of those who reject Faith".
- 91 again asks Jews why they killed the prophets of the past (who, btw, are never named).
- 92-93 complain, not for the first time, about Jews worshipping the golden calf.
- 94-96 suggest that Jews should long for death if they are indeed the 'Chosen Ones', but say they refuse to because they are "the greediest of mankind for life".
Verse 98 should be read attentively to appreciate its gravity - "Whosoever is an enemy to God and His angels and His Messengers, and Gabriel, and Michael - surely God is an enemy to the unbelievers". If you think the wording of that verse sounds like a clumsy non-sequitur, you are not alone. Grammatically, if it had said,"Whosoever is an enemy to God etc. - surely God is an enemy to them", it would have made sense. But, what it is clearly doing is saying that simply being an unbeliever automatically makes one an "enemy to God and His angels", and vice versa. In my opinion, this is one of the most crucial verses of the Qur'an as it irrevocably defines the god of Islam, and therefore Muslims, as enemies to unbelievers.
Verses 99-105 are more of the same:
- 99 "We have sent down to thee [Jews] Manifest Signs [the Qur'an]; and none reject them but those who are perverse".
- 100 says Jews can not be trusted to keep their promises to God.
- 101-103 say Jews ignore God's prophets while listening to devils to their detriment.
- 104 seems to be addressing Muslims. It tells believers to allow themselves to be taught, but even here, apropos of nothing, the Qur'an adds, "For the unbelievers there is a painful chastisement".
- 105 continues this seemingly endless rebuke, "Neither those who disbelieve from the People of the Scripture nor the polytheists wish that any good [the Qur'an] should be sent down to you from your Lord".
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe all the NT is the writing of Jesus but not by His hand, by His Spirit.