• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Burden of Proof is on Atheists

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
And yet the Bahai's I converse with here have been some of the most dogmatically irrational apologists I have ever encountered.
Who are you to judge? That is only your personal opinion and unless you have proof it is a bald assertion.
As if by magic, you present an entirely irrational argument. There are probably many times more articulate, erudite Chritian and Muslim apologist sources than Baha'i. Therefore, by your "argument", Christians and Muslim s are more educated than Baha'is.
Who are you to judge? That is only your personal opinion and unless you have proof it is a bald assertion.
Why does that matter if the author was guided by god? You claim that Bahaullah's writing are the ultimate religious scripture - but which prophet did he know? Which Biblical character had he met?
Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God/Prophet and He was the author of His own scriptures.
Baha'u'llah was All-knowing so He knew everything about the Bible, what was true and what was false.
So you have finally accepted that your constant claims for "proof" and "evidence" for god are merely belief. Phew, that took some time!
No, I have not accepted that what I have merely belief. I have evidence so I know, I not only believe.
The follower of every religion is just as certain that their beliefs are right and yours are wrong - and neither has any evidence nor rational argument to support your claims. So where does that leave you?
I have evidence and rational arguments to support my beliefs. I don't care about what other religious people believe, that has no bearing on my beliefs.
So what is the point in religious belief?
To know the truth about God.
Oh, now you've gone and spoiled it.
"Knowledge" and "belief" are two different and mutually exclusive concepts. If you "know" something, there is no need for "belief". If you are required to "believe" something, it means it is not "known".
I know that what I believe is true and there is nothing you can do about it but post on this forum and say I don't know, but you cannot take what I know from me because God guided me to that certainty.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
That is still a straw man because I maintain there is no rational atheist who makes that claim.
Maybe there is no 'rational atheist' that makes that claim but what makes you think that all atheists are rational?
I know an atheist who makes that claim and where there is one there are probably more. You cannot speak for all atheists.
Also, there is far more than 7% of the world who don't believe in god in the religious sense. You are merely citing one study's results on the people claiming to be "convinced atheists". Even in hard line theocracies like Saudi Arabia there are 6% confirmed atheists, plus another 19% who don't consider themselves religious.
In many countries the proportion of people who call themselves religious is below 50%
Studies vary. According to this article, 84 percent of the world population has a faith

According to sociologists Ariela Keysar and Juhem Navarro-Rivera's review of numerous global studies on atheism, there are 450 to 500 million positive atheists and agnostics worldwide (7% of the world's population), with China having the most atheists in the world (200 million convinced atheists). Demographics of atheism - Wikipedia
In which case you should make that clear. And even then, your claim is still pretty weak and by appealing to emotion you are still tending towards a straw man.
What you should be saying is that some atheists think that some religionists are delusional. This is both accurate in the representation of the atheists' claim, and the claim itself is accurate.
That's true. Some atheists think that some religionists are delusional and the rest of the atheists just think we are incorrect in what we believe.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
in ancient history when an event is attested to by 2 or more independent sources, historians would consider it a historical fact….. so why making an arbitrary exception with the resurrection?

Those aren't my standards for belief. I would tend to put credence on the testimony of two disinterested, independent eyewitnesses claiming that something that is know to have happened in the past has occurred again, such as the bystanders witnessing George Floyd's demise, even absent the footage showing the acts. I would tend to believe the patrons of a bar saying who threw the first punch if they weren't all regulars that knw one another. But these are eyewitnesses whose characters, motives, beliefs, and agendas if any can be investigated, and they are making claims consistent with well-documented similar events in the past.

No number of second- or third-hand witnesses can convince me of an extraordinary claim without compelling physical evidence. Words alone won't do.

The empty tomb is evidence for the resurrection, specifically it´s a correct prediction, “if Jesus resurrected we would expect to have an empty tomb”…. I know that this by itself is not good enough to establish the resurrection but it can be part of a cumulative case.

That's the formal fallacy called affirming the consequent: "We have an empty tomb, therefore Jesus was resurrected."

The story of the empty tomb is very weak evidence for a resurrection. There may have been no tomb. The tomb in question may never have held Jesus. If it had, Jesus might have been secretly removed. Each of these is much more likely than a supernatural occurrence.

Well we have no other option, it doesn’t matter if you believe in the resurrection or in an alternative naturalistic hypothesis, in either case you have to claim that something extraordinary happened, something that has only been reported once. It doesn’t matter If Jesus resurrected, if they where mass hallucinations, or if Jesus survived in the cross, of if he had a tween brother etc. all hypothesis involve something that has never been observed to happen and has never been reported.

Disagree. There is nothing extraordinary about unevidenced claims religious or otherwise.

And mass hallucination isn't offered as the only explanation for a group of people holding a false belief, or even the best one. Mass deception is more common, as at Jonestown Waco, and Heaven's Gate. Presumably you don't believe that the latter hitchhiked onto a comet just because they believed they would, do you? And you do not need to invoke hallucination to account for it. These are naturalistic processes being described, and there is nothing extraordinary about them. It's not mass hallucination that has so many people believing that the vaccine is more dangerous than the virus, nor that the earth is flat. But these are all examples of groups of people holding wrong beliefs. How do they come to them? Naturalistically.

The point is that if we treat the resurrection the same way you will treat any other claim from ancient history, then the resurrection would have been accepted as a historical fact.

Once again, that is not my criterion for belief. I need compelling evidence to believe, and thought they seem to be that for you, claims of resurrection and claims of empty tombs aren't that for me.

miracles would only be a problem if the existence of God where impossible (or very unlikely) but unless you accept this burden and show that God doesn’t exist, you shouldn’t have big problems with miracles.

I have the same attitude regarding miracles that I do about gods and all other insufficiently supported claims of fact. And I have the same criteria for belief in those areas that I do everywhere else: compelling evidence. It's been a very valuable rule to live by, and I have no reason to violate it now when considering tombs, resurrections, and miracles. If I can borrow from religious terminology, that would be the greatest sin against the self possible - to disable the reasoning and moral faculties and substitute belief by faith. I apologize if this sounds offensive, but that is much closer to to a lobotomy than I care to ever come. It would be excising the aspect of myself with which I most closely identify. It's my anchor to reality and right living.

Thanks, again, Leroy.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Well, the obvious issue would be that neither you nor the other religionists have any evidence to support your positions, it is merely belief, whereas the flat earth issue is one that can be empirically demonstrated. (It is not flat, BTW, in case you were wondering)

And (as I said in my earlier point, which you are still failing to address) other religionists make the same claim about their beliefs. And we're back to square one.
The point is that the fact that other people from other religions claim that their religion is correct does nothing to falsify Christianity.

“the claim but other religions make other claims” does nothing to falsify Christianity…….(therefore you argument is bad)




You are quite correct that if an ancient book contains extraordinary tales of gods, monsters, magic, etc, we require independent, corroborating accounts before we accept them as fact.

Then each book falls or stands my it´s own merits. Agree? If you what to claim that the bible is not “good enough” you should provide justification

T
hat is why we are sceptical about the cyclops in Odyssey, dragons in the Mabinogion, ice giants in the Norse Sagas, and Jesus' magical powers. We don't accept they exist simply because an old book describes them.

What evidence would you expect to find, in favor of the resurrection? What “realistic” peace of evidence would convince you that a miracle took place 2000 years ago?
And yet when it comes to Jesus, a pretty flaky record with zero corroboration is accepted as gospel without question

Nobody is telling you accept the gospels (and other books) without question. Just treat the new testament the same way you will treat any other ancient document……….. just explain under what basis do you afirmthat the gosples are not reliable? What arguments would you provide?

Most of the verifiable historical facts in the are true, so why not giving the gossips the benefit of the doubt and assume that they are likely correct in almost everything?





and every argument or discovery to the contrary is simply dismissed by default.
provide an example
Also bear in mind that the claim that an ordinary man lived and did some ordinary stuff does not require the same level of scepticism as claims of magic and monsters.

Ok so what evidence would you accept for “magic” 2000 years ago?
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Do you always have this paranoid and extreme skepticism? or you only apply high standards of skepticism only with stuff that contradict your own particular view?

Skepticism in this context is the belief that no claim should be believed without sufficient reason as judged by the principles of critical thought. There are no degree of this. There is no paranoid form of this. It's a simple position, and yes, it is always in play with every existential claim made.

Incidentally, I agree with him, as will every other critical thinker. He said, "you assume [Paul believed that Jesus was resurrected] because of what he wrote. However, he may not have. You will never know. History contains many examples of people who were not what they appeared to be." As with everything else in the Bible, Paul's claims are just claims unless they can be corroborated by physical evidence acquired elsewhere. The mention of David in the Old Testament is not sufficient evidence to believe that such a person ever lived, but the independent corroboration of the claim from archeology is. Without that, what we have is evidence that somebody thought or claimed to think that David was a historical character. With that, we have evidence that the Bible writers were correct.

how do you know that Richard Dawkins truly believes in the theory of evolution? How do you know he is an atheist? Maybe he is a flat earthier YEC that lies about his views for whatever reason.

We don't. Nor is it important. We judge his words, whoever wrote them, and whatever his beliefs actually are. What if you discovered that I was actually a closet theist. It might seem odd that I would post the way I do, but would it change the value of the arguments made any? Wouldn't theists still object to them and the empiricists still agree with them?

This reminds me of the historicity of Jesus discussions. Once a person has excluded that Jesus was born of a virgin, walked on water, raised the dead, and was himself resurrected to ascend to heaven to atone for mankind's sin, does any of the rest matter? Does it matter whether an itinerant, fundamentalist Jew named Jesus roamed the Levant two millennia ago with a band of adherents or not? If one respects the message of the Gospels and the words attributed to Jesus, and many non-Christians and even some atheists do, does it really matter who said them? What if it turned out to be Wilbur in collaboration with Edna? What if Socrates never told Plato what Plato reported he did, but it was all from the quill of Plato? So what? Who cares what the author's name was. Same with Shakespeare. It's really only the words that matter - not whether these people actually lived or even if they believed what they wrote.

With Paul based on his actions and claims, it is fair to assume that he truly believed in the resurrection, just like it is fair to assume that Richard Dawkins believed in the theory of evolution, sure anyone of them would be lying for some mysterious reason.

Agree, but for reasons just explained, it doesn't matter. Nothing changes for me to learn that Paul didn't actually believed what he said, or that he did. You seem to think that it makes his beliefs more believable to others. Maybe Trump actually believes that the election was stolen from him. Does that make it more likely that it was? Yes, but infinitesimally - not enough to even consider it, like finding four miscounted votes.

Who are you to judge? That is only your personal opinion and unless you have proof it is a bald assertion.

Your comment was in response to, "And yet the Bahai's I converse with here have been some of the most dogmatically irrational apologists I have ever encountered."

It's not just his opinion. Many of us describe Abrahamic apologists in those terms.
 
Last edited:

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
The point is that the fact that other people from other religions claim that their religion is correct does nothing to falsify Christianity.
Conversely, the claim of Christianity to be the 'only true religion' does nothing to falsify the claims of other religions who claim that their religion is correct.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Your comment was in response to, "And yet the Bahai's I converse with here have been some of the most dogmatically irrational apologists I have ever encountered."

It's not just his opinion. Many of us describe Abrahamic apologists in those terms. Why do you think he lacks the standing to make such judgments?
Why would it matter if “many of you” describe Abrahamic apologists in those terms? That is just your opinion to which you are welcome but it does not mean you are right.

Nobody has any ‘standing’ to make judgments, not unless they are in a court of law.
Regarding who is he to judge, he is a rational, moral agent. That's what they do. They use their reasoning and moral faculties to judge what is true and what is right and good by their standards. Who else's would he use?
No, not all rational moral people pass judgments upon other people. Only arrogant people judge everything only by their own standards which they consider to be incontrovertibly true. I do not see believers passing judgments upon atheists, all we do is defend ourselves from their judgments.
Isn't this you making a dogmatic, irrational, bald assertion?

No, it is just me stating my beliefs. What you choose to think about them is entirely up to you.
Oh, the beauty of free will!
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Skepticism in this context is the belief that no claim should be believed without sufficient reason as judged by the principles of critical thought. There are no degree of this. There is no paranoid form of this. It's a simple position, and yes, it is always in play with every existential claim made.

Incidentally, I agree with him, as will every other critical thinker. He said, "you assume [Paul believed that Jesus was resurrected] because of what he wrote. However, he may not have. You will never know. History contains many examples of people who were not what they appeared to be." As with everything else in the Bible, Paul's claims are just claims unless they can be corroborated by physical evidence acquired elsewhere. The mention of David in the Old Testament is not sufficient evidence to believe that such a person ever lived, but the independent corroboration of the claim from archeology is. Without that, what we have is evidence that somebody thought or claimed to think that David was a historical character. With that, we have evidence that the Bible writers were correct.



We don't. Nor is it important. We judge his words, whoever wrote them, and whatever his beliefs actually are. What if you discovered that I was actually a closet theist. It might seem odd that I would post the way I do, but would it change the value of the arguments made any? Wouldn't theists still object to them and the empiricists still agree with them?

This reminds me of the historicity of Jesus discussions. Once a person has excluded that Jesus was born of a virgin, walked on water, raised the dead, and was himself resurrected to ascend to heaven to atone for mankind's sin, does any of the rest matter? Does it matter whether an itinerant, fundamentalist Jew named Jesus roamed the Levant two millennia ago with a band of adherents or not? If one respects the message of the Gospels and the words attributed to Jesus, and many non-Christians and even some atheists do, does it really matter who said them? What if it turned out to be Wilbur in collaboration with Edna? What if Socrates never told Plato what Plato reported he did, but it was all from the quill of Plato? So what? Who cares what the author's name was. Same with Shakespeare. It's really only the words that matter - not whether these people actually lived or even if they believed what they wrote.



Agree, but for reasons just explained, it doesn't matter. Nothing changes for me to learn that Paul didn't actually believed what he said, or that he did. You seem to think that it makes his beliefs more believable to others. Maybe Trump actually believes that the election was stolen from him. Does that make it more likely that it was? Yes, but infinitesimally - not enough to even consider it, like finding four miscounted votes.



Your comment was in response to, "And yet the Bahai's I converse with here have been some of the most dogmatically irrational apologists I have ever encountered."

It's not just his opinion. Many of us describe Abrahamic apologists in those terms.
The relevant point is:

If Paul (and other Christians) honestly and sincerely believed in the resurrection, then he was not lying, which means that any theory that implies that Christians lied about the resurrection should be discarded.

In other words it´s not an argument for the resurrection, it’s an argument against alternative theories that imply that that Christians laid.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
The relevant point is:

If Paul (and other Christians) honestly and sincerely believed in the resurrection, then he was not lying, which means that any theory that implies that Christians lied about the resurrection should be discarded.

In other words it´s not an argument for the resurrection, it’s an argument against alternative theories that imply that that Christians laid.
I think that Christians honestly and sincerely believe in the resurrection because that is what they were taught by the Church to believe.

How do you know that Paul believed in the bodily resurrection of Jesus?
I do not think that all Christians believe that Paul taught a 'bodily' resurrection.

What many liberal theologians believe about Jesus' death

"Many liberal and some mainline Christian leaders believe that Jesus died during the crucifixion, did not resurrect himself, and was not bodily resurrected by God. At his death, his mind ceased to function and his body started the decomposition process. Returning to life a day and a half later would have been quite impossible. The story of having been wrapped in linen and anointed with myrrh seems to have been copied from the story of the death of Osiris -- the Egyptian God of the earth, vegetation and grain. The legend that he visited the underworld between his death and resurrection was simply copied from common Pagan themes of surrounding cultures. One example again was Osiris. "With his original association to agriculture, his death and resurrection were seen as symbolic of the annual death and re-growth of the crops and the yearly flooding of the Nile." 1

They also believe that Paul regarded the resurrection to be an act of God in which Jesus was a passive recipient of God's power. Paul did not mention the empty tomb, the visit by a woman or women, the stone, the angel/angels/man/men at the tomb, and reunion of Jesus with his followers in his resuscitated body. Rather, he believed that Jesus was taken up into heaven in a spirit body. It was only later, from about 70 to 110 CE when the four canonic Gospels were written, that the Christians believed that Jesus rose from the grave in his original body, and by his own power.

Later, perhaps after Paul's death, there was great disappointment within the Christian communities because Jesus had not returned as expected. They diverted their focus of attention away from Jesus' second coming. They studied his life and death more intensely. Legends without a historical basis were created by the early church; these included the empty tomb and described Jesus returning in his original body to eat and talk with his followers."
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The relevant point is: If Paul (and other Christians) honestly and sincerely believed in the resurrection, then he was not lying, which means that any theory that implies that Christians lied about the resurrection should be discarded. In other words it´s not an argument for the resurrection, it’s an argument against alternative theories that imply that that Christians laid.

I assume that you mean that Paul was not lying when he said that he believed a resurrection occurred, and not lying about whether one actually occurred. I don't see why that's relevant since Paul wasn't an eyewitness of a resurrection. If there was lying about the resurrection, it was done by people who were present relatively recently after the crucifixion. Others that have believed them are not liars. You believe them. I do not consider you a liar, just somebody willing to believe with less than I require to believe.

It's not important to me what fraction of this story is due to lying, misunderstanding, delusion or hallucination, or confirmation bias (the will to believe). What was the breakdown at Jonestown, where several hundred people believed that Jim Jones was "a return of Elijah the Prophet, the voice of God, a manifestation of Christ." How many of them were liars? Was Jones a liar or just delusional? I don't know. Were his cadre liars or delusional or hallucinating or just too willing to believe? I don't know. His followers? Same answer, except probably few liars. The point is that any combination of these is more believable than the claim that he was any of those things.

Consider other cases of large groups of people sharing a similar faith-based vision, such as the hundreds of people that stormed the Capitol building. How many do you think lying about their belief that the election was stolen? How many of those people believe that a fair election transpired, but are saying otherwise anyway? I'd guess that most at the top who planned and organized the insurrection fit that description, but most of the soldiers appear to have been deceived and were sincere in their false beliefs.

Now do the same with anti-vax. You've got people like Trump and Fox talking heads promoting the idea that the vaccine is more dangerous than the virus, and millions of rank and file consumers of their words agreeing. Which are lying, which are hallucinating, which are delusional, and which simply are willing to believe what they are told? I don't know. My point is that it doesn't matter, and arguing over whether lying was an element at any level is unnecessary.

As I said, I don't consider you a liar, hallucinating, or delusional. You fit in the category of willing to believe despite insufficient support, but believing that you have sufficient support to believe gauging by your arguments placing so much weight on multiple second- and third-hand testimonials including the claim of an empty tomb that could only exist because the body within had been resurrected. Forget the problem of a physical body ascending presumably through rock into the open air like a rocket launch, and ascending in the direction of whatever constellation was overhead at the time. When did that body separate from the soul within it?

When that happened, did the body fall back toward earth like a spent rocket booster after separation (I'm presuming that heaven doesn't have coordinates in our space, so there was no physical destination the body could go and be closer to heaven)?

If not, where is the body now? In interstellar space like Voyager? I realize this is all ridiculous, albeit no more so than three Magi following a star to a manger in a foreign country (how does one know which manger is under the star, and can camels really go 1000 miles per hour?), but if one is citing the absence of a physical body in a tomb as evidence of a resurrection, then one is saying that the body left the tomb and the earth.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
So what is the evidence for the resurrection that makes an actual resurrection more likely than a myth or superstition?
That is easy, we have multiple early documents that claim that a resurrection happened, (the earliest source dates to within 2 or 3 years after the crusifixtion.

This is too early for any myth or legend to flourish………… it´s a fact that some early Christians saw something that they interpreted as a resurrection,
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Forget the problem of a physical body ascending presumably through rock into the open air like a rocket launch, and ascending in the direction of whatever constellation was overhead at the time. When did that body separate from the soul within it?

When that happened, did the body fall back toward earth like a spent rocket booster after separation (I'm presuming that heaven doesn't have coordinates in our space, so there was no physical destination the body could go and be closer to heaven)?

If not, where is the body now? In interstellar space like Voyager?
Yeah, let's forget all about that because if Christians had to think about that they might lose faith.

As you must know, most Christians believe that the physical body of Jesus magically turned into a glorified physical body that is immortal and then it ascended up to heaven in the clouds and that same physical body will return to earth someday just the way it left (Acts 1:9-11).

Baha'is believe that Jesus died on the cross and His soul ascended to heaven at that time, and that is why the same Jesus can never return to earth as Christians believe He will, someday.

This short chapter explains what Baha'is believe about the resurrection.

23: THE RESURRECTION OF CHRIST
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Because all we have is claims and testimony from people who claim to have found and studied the fossils.

Th

Wrong again. There is far more than mere testimony, as has been explained to you repeatedly.
Yes I have been told many times, but you haven’t provided any evidence for the authenticity of the fossils (stegosaurus in the museum) apart form testimonies.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Out of curiosity: why do you consider the New Testament to be a "historical document" about the resurrection?

I mean, look at how the narrative developed:

  • in the original short version of Mark, it ends on a down note: the tomb is empty and the disciples are all just confused and afraid.
  • the later the date of the document, the more elaborate the story of Jesus's death: with the later accounts, there get added more and more mythic and fantastical elements.
  • Finally, by the time we get to the latest account, John, we get a very elaborate account with things that would have been hard for an observer at the time to miss: a giant earthquake, the temple curtain ripped in two, the zombie invasion of Jerusalem, etc., etc.
Generally, when a story snowballs like this in the retelling, we don't take those added embellishments - e.g. the Resurrection - as reliable.

In the original version, all we have is that the tomb is empty and the disciples don't know why. Why aren't you just going with that account?
Most of the verifiable historical things that are reported in the gospels happen to be true; this is why I trust the gospels as reliable historical documents. This means that at the very least they deserve the benefit of the doubt with stuff that is impossible to verify.


The zombie and the earthquake stuff is just a literally tool, nobody thinks (nor thought) that zombies literally appeared .
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Most of the verifiable historical things that are reported in the gospels happen to be true; this is why I trust the gospels as reliable historical documents. This means that at the very least they deserve the benefit of the doubt with stuff that is impossible to verify.


The zombie and the earthquake stuff is just a literally tool, nobody thinks (nor thought) that zombies literally appeared .
Why on Earth would you consider the Resurrection a "verifiable historical thing"?

Why on Earth would you consider a book that describes events you don't think actually happened (e.g. the zombie invasion of Jerusalem) as "reliable"?

What else in the Gospels don't you think actually happened? How do you decide what's real vs. what isn't?
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Most people who end up dying for a cause don't think they're going to die for it until it's too late to avoid dying.
That’s not the case for Paul and early Christians, they could have avoided prison and death by simply denying Jesus,

What you are askig us to belive is that

1 Early Christians invented the myth of the resurrection (they knew it was false)

2 then they died for that myth , (knowing that the myth was false in the first place.)

Its much more likely that early Christians “saw something” that they interpreted as the risen Jesus……… what did they see? We don’t know there are many alternatives

1 maybe someone dressed up like jesus and fooled everybody

2 maybe they imagined / dreamed / hallucinated jesus

3 maybe Jesus didn’t die in the cross

4 maybe Jesus really and truly rose from the death

As you can see, you can accept that early Christians honestly believed in the resurrection, and they “saw something” without accepting the resurrection

The question is which of these alternatives do you pick and why is it better than resurrection? (or perhaps there is a 5th alternative that you prefer.)
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Why on Earth would you consider the Resurrection a "verifiable historical thing"?
That was not my point, but the answer is that there are multiple lines of evidence for the resurrection.


Why on Earth would you consider a book that describes events you don't think actually happened (e.g. the zombie invasion of Jerusalem) as "reliable"?

Again that is a literally tool, the author is using symbolic language

For example

Luke 6:41-42

Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?


Obviously I don’t believe that people used to have planks in their eyes / nor I belive that the bible literally teaches that, the author is clearly using symbolic language.


What else in the Gospels don't you think actually happened? How do you decide what's real vs. what isn't?

The same way you decide in your daily life with in conversation

Did the author claim it to be real? Or was he using literally tool?............. if your friend tells you that he is “so hungry that he could eat a horse” how can you tell if its literally true or if he is just using an expression, ?

All I am saying is that the gospels deserve the benefit of the doubt,

If the author claims that something is real, then we must trust him, unless proven otherwise. (you do the same thign with josephus, tacitus and other historians from that period)
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
in ancient history when an even is attested in 2 or more independent sources, historians would consider it a historical fact….. so why making an arbitrary exception with the resurrection?


1. You don't have any sources. only second or third hand hearsay from unknown authors.
2. Even IF you could establish an empty tomb, as an historical fact, that would not remotely evidence anything supernatural.

Why on earth would it?
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
The evidence for the empty tomb is conclusive

There is no objective evidence, only unevidenced claims, from unknown authors, long after the fact.

The empty tomb is evidence for the resurrection,

Not even remotely true.

it´s a correct prediction, “if Jesus resurrected we would expect to have an empty tomb”

that's just a circular reasoning fallacy, and again we have zero objective evidence for any empty tomb, and anyway an empty tomb alone would not remotely demonstrate anything supernatural.

I know that this by itself is not good enough to establish the resurrection

Well there you go.

it can be part of a cumulative case.

unlikely or you and all the theists would have presented this, though I am familiar with the line of apologetics that thinks lining subjective claims in tandem makes them stronger, it doesn't.

Well we have no other option, it doesn’t matter if you believe in the resurrection or in an alternative naturalistic hypothesis, in either case you have to claim that something extraordinary happened, something that has only been reported once.

1. You have only hearsay from unknown sources that any tomb was empty.
2. An empty tomb would be pretty commonplace, but again we have no objective evidence for one.
3. I see nothing extraordinary beyond subjective post ad hoc claims from unknown authors, many years afterward.


It doesn’t matter If Jesus resurrected, if they where mass hallucinations, or if Jesus survived in the cross, of if he had a tween brother etc. all hypothesis involve something that has never been observed to happen and has never been reported.

Still just unevidenced hearsay, from unknown authors, long after the fact, and still pretty ordinary, and certainly not remotely evidence for anything supernatural, let alone a resurrection. Plenty of tombs in Egyptian pyramids turned out to be empty, were they all resurrected deities? You will have to do better than subjective claims.

The point is that if we treat the resurrection the same way you will treat any other claim form ancient history, then the resurrection would have been accepted as a historical fact.

Laughably wrong. Historical facts don't ever involve unevidenced supernatural events, based on nothing but hearsay, from unknown sources.

We have multiple independent and early sources, explanatory power, explanatory scope, parsimony etc.

We have no contemporary sources at all, this has been explained to you, and the bare unevidenced claim for a resurrection has no explanatory powers, only unevidenced assumption, you have yet to explain what you think explanatory scope means, even after being asked twice to explain it. Parsimony??? I have no idea what etc refers to either???
 
Top