Why is evolution even still a debate?

[Evangelicalhumanist]

No... For example, all canines would be one kind.

And another example of just not getting it.

 

[ppp]

This is why the evolution crowd gets away with a lot because they don't define their terms well. Creationist all believe in what you would call evolution in a species... The disagreement is one kind transitioning into another kind.

Speaking of not defining terms well (or at all)..please define "kind".

 

[Wildswanderer]

Are you familiar with the anhedonia of major depression? It's characterized by the loss of feeling and emotions, and is a risk factor for suicide. THAT gets in the way of survival, not emotion.

Thanks for proving my point. There's no reason we should have emotion or a spirit in a world created by random chance. The fact that we NEED emotion is telling us we are not just animals.

 

[Wildswanderer]

otally correct is not the standard. Newtonian physics is not totally correct. But it is still valuable physics

Switching to another branch of science isn't an argument. I'm talking about our knowledge of the past. We don't even get our own history right and we are expected to believe we know what happened billions of years before we existed.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Now you're just trying to change what you said.

Go back and read it.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Speaking of not defining terms well (or at all)..please define "kind".

In general, if two things can breed together, then they are of the same kind.

 

[Wildswanderer]

And another example of just not getting it.

Getting what? I find it highly amusing that if anyone questions evolution in any way, they are guaranteed more responses than they will get on any other religion here.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Again no substance here, just claims.

I know, you fully expect somebody to condense the totality of evidence garnered through 163 years of study by tens of thousands of scientists in multiple fields since Darwin published "Origin...," and a 2 paragraph "Readers Digest" version of the knowledge pursued in 7 or 8 university degrees, because you can't be bothered looking for anything but that which confirms your biases.

But I'm afraid it's not going to happen. You'll have to remain ignorant on the topic of evolution, I'm afraid.

 

[Wildswanderer]

I know, you fully expect somebody to condense the totality of evidence garnered through 163 years of study by tens of thousands of scientists in multiple fields since Darwin published "Origin...," and a 2 paragraph "Readers Digest" version of the knowledge pursued in 7 or 8 university degrees, because you can't be bothered looking for anything but that which confirms your biases.

But I'm afraid it's not going to happen. You'll have to remain ignorant on the topic of evolution, I'm afraid.

Oh, so the other side can go with bare claims but if someone supporting creation does that it's invalid. Got it.

 

[cladking]

What does what you "believe" have to do with anything? Even though you claim science is based on false assumptions in this case, you don't even bother to mention what assumptions you are using. And your suggestion that 'because off spring can coherently differ from their parents does not mean they have "evolved"' shows that you don't have a firm grasp on what you don't even bother to mention what assumptions you are using.

So, please back up your claim that "Darwin led us far astray," with something at least vaguely factual -- if you have anything.

Nobody's beliefs has anything to do with reality and that applies to your beliefs as well. Only EXPERIMENT applies to reality and no experiment shows a gradual change in species caused by "survival of the fittest OR ANY OTHER MECHANISM. ALL OBSERVED CHANGE IS SUDDEN.

you don't even bother to mention what assumptions you are using.

I've mentioned all my assumptions many times. But in this case they aren't completely relevant because all observation and all experiment support my perspective. I am merely reinterpreting experiment to more closely agree with the facts and evidence as I see them. It is called hypothesis formation.

And your suggestion that 'because off spring can coherently differ from their parents does not mean they have "evolved"' shows that you don't have a firm grasp on what you don't even bother to mention what assumptions you are using

Even now your assumption is showing. You are assuming the off spring are very similar to their parents because your BELIEF is that "Evolution" is gradual. There exists no such gradual change and every individual is principally a sort of amalgam of its parents. The reality is each juvenile is virtually the same as the parents until the species changes and then they are "suddenly" different. How can you consider another argument if you interject your own beliefs into it?

Every single experiment and observation says Darwin was wrong but we believe in "Evolution" so we see that Darwin was right. All change is sudden and all individuals are fit. Darwin was wrong.

 

[Polymath257]

No... For example, all canines would be one kind.

Why?

 

[Polymath257]

Oh, so the other side can go with bare claims but if someone supporting creation does that it's invalid. Got it.

There is a difference between bare claims and the mountain of evidence in favor of evolution.

 

[cladking]

I know, you fully expect somebody to condense the totality of evidence garnered through 163 years of study by tens of thousands of scientists in multiple fields since Darwin published "Origin...," and a 2 paragraph "Readers Digest" version of the knowledge pursued in 7 or 8 university degrees, because you can't be bothered looking for anything but that which confirms your biases.

But I'm afraid it's not going to happen. You'll have to remain ignorant on the topic of evolution, I'm afraid.

And by the exact same token you can't hold every one of these experiments in mind and see that our interpretation is wrong. It should be relatively easier since there are so few experiments that support any gradual change in species or that shows some individuals are less fit or less conscious.

 

[Polymath257]

Thanks for proving my point. There's no reason we should have emotion or a spirit in a world created by random chance. The fact that we NEED emotion is telling us we are not just animals.

Animals have emotions because they need them as well for survival.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Bibliography

• Altenberg, Lee (1995). "Genome growth and the evolution of the genotype–phenotype map". In Banzhaf, Wolfgang; Eeckman, Frank H. (eds.). Evolution and Biocomputation: Computational Models of Evolution. Lecture Notes in Computer Science. Vol. 899. Berlin; New York: Springer-Verlag Berlin Heidelberg. pp. 205–259. CiteSeerX 10.1.1.493.6534. doi:10.1007/3-540-59046-3_11. ISBN 978-3-540-59046-0. ISSN 0302-9743. LCCN 95005970. OCLC 32049812.

• Birdsell, John A.; Wills, Christopher (2003). "The Evolutionary Origin and Maintenance of Sexual Recombination: A Review of Contemporary Models". In MacIntyre, Ross J.; Clegg, Michael T. (eds.). Evolutionary Biology. Evolutionary Biology. Vol. 33. New York: Springer Science+Business Media. ISBN 978-1-4419-3385-0. ISSN 0071-3260. OCLC 751583918.

• Bowler, Peter J. (1989). The Mendelian Revolution: The Emergence of Hereditarian Concepts in Modern Science and Society. Baltimore, Maryland: Johns Hopkins University Press. ISBN 978-0-8018-3888-0. LCCN 89030914. OCLC 19322402.

• Bowler, Peter J. (2003). Evolution: The History of an Idea (3rd completely rev. and expanded ed.). Berkeley, California: University of California Press. ISBN 978-0-520-23693-6. LCCN 2002007569. OCLC 49824702.

• Browne, Janet (2003). Charles Darwin: The Power of Place. Vol. 2. London: Pimlico. ISBN 978-0-7126-6837-8. LCCN 94006598. OCLC 52327000.

• Burkhardt, Frederick; Smith, Sydney, eds. (1991). The Correspondence of Charles Darwin. The Correspondence of Charles Darwin. Vol. 7: 1858–1859. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. ISBN 978-0-521-38564-0. LCCN 84045347. OCLC 185662993.

• Carroll, Sean B.; Grenier, Jennifer K.; Weatherbee, Scott D. (2005). From DNA to Diversity: Molecular Genetics and the Evolution of Animal Design (2nd ed.). Malden, Massachusetts: Blackwell Publishing. ISBN 978-1-4051-1950-4. LCCN 2003027991. OCLC 53972564.

• Chapman, Arthur D. (2009). Numbers of Living Species in Australia and the World (2nd ed.). Canberra: Department of the Environment, Water, Heritage and the Arts: Australian Biological Resources Study. ISBN 978-0-642-56860-1. OCLC 780539206. Archived from the original on 25 December 2016. Retrieved 6 November 2016.

• Coyne, Jerry A. (2009). Why Evolution is True. New York: Viking. ISBN 978-0-670-02053-9. LCCN 2008033973. OCLC 233549529.

• Dalrymple, G. Brent (2001). "The age of the Earth in the twentieth century: a problem (mostly) solved". In Lewis, C.L.E.; Knell, S.J. (eds.). The Age of the Earth: from 4004 BC to AD 2002. Geological Society, London, Special Publications. Geological Society Special Publication. Vol. 190. pp. 205–221. Bibcode:2001GSLSP.190..205D. doi:10.1144/gsl.sp.2001.190.01.14. ISBN 978-1-86239-093-5. LCCN 2003464816. OCLC 48570033. S2CID 130092094.

• Darwin, Charles (1837). "B" Notebook. The notebook is available from The Complete Work of Charles Darwin Online. Retrieved 2019-10-09.

• Darwin, Charles (1859). On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life (1st ed.). London: John Murray. LCCN 06017473. OCLC 741260650. The book is available from The Complete Work of Charles Darwin Online. Retrieved 2014-11-21.

• Darwin, Charles (1872). The Expression of the Emotions in Man and Animals. London: John Murray. LCCN 04002793. OCLC 1102785.

• Darwin, Francis, ed. (1909). The foundations of The origin of species, a sketch written in 1842 (PDF). Cambridge: Printed at the University Press. LCCN 61057537. OCLC 1184581. Retrieved 27 November 2014.

• Dennett, Daniel (1995). Darwin's Dangerous Idea: Evolution and the Meanings of Life. New York: Simon & Schuster. ISBN 978-0-684-80290-9. LCCN 94049158. OCLC 31867409.

• Dobzhansky, Theodosius (1968). "On Some Fundamental Concepts of Darwinian Biology". In Dobzhansky, Theodosius; Hecht, Max K.; Steere, William C. (eds.). Evolutionary Biology. Volume 2 (1st ed.). New York: Appleton-Century-Crofts. pp. 1–34. doi:10.1007/978-1-4684-8094-8_1. ISBN 978-1-4684-8096-2. OCLC 24875357.

• Dobzhansky, Theodosius (1970). Genetics of the Evolutionary Process. New York: Columbia University Press. ISBN 978-0-231-02837-0. LCCN 72127363. OCLC 97663.

• Eldredge, Niles; Gould, Stephen Jay (1972). "Punctuated equilibria: an alternative to phyletic gradualism". In Schopf, Thomas J.M. (ed.). Models in Paleobiology. San Francisco, California: Freeman, Cooper. ISBN 978-0-87735-325-6. LCCN 72078387. OCLC 572084.

• Eldredge, Niles (1985). Time Frames: The Rethinking of Darwinian Evolution and the Theory of Punctuated Equilibria. New York: Simon & Schuster. ISBN 978-0-671-49555-8. LCCN 84023632. OCLC 11443805.

• Ewens, Warren J. (2004). Mathematical Population Genetics. Interdisciplinary Applied Mathematics. Vol. I. Theoretical Introduction (2nd ed.). New York: Springer-Verlag New York. ISBN 978-0-387-20191-7. LCCN 2003065728. OCLC 53231891.

• Fisher, Ronald A. (1930). The Genetical Theory of Natural Selection. Oxford: The Clarendon Press. ISBN 978-0-19-850440-5. LCCN 30029177. OCLC 18500548.

• Futuyma, Douglas J. (2004). "The Fruit of the Tree of Life: Insights into Evolution and Ecology". In Cracraft, Joel; Donoghue, Michael J. (eds.). Assembling the Tree of Life. Oxford; New York: Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-517234-8. LCCN 2003058012. OCLC 61342697. "Proceedings of a symposium held at the American Museum of Natural History in New York, 2002."

• Futuyma, Douglas J. (2005). Evolution. Sunderland, Massachusetts: Sinauer Associates. ISBN 978-0-87893-187-3. LCCN 2004029808. OCLC 57311264.

• Futuyma, Douglas J.; Kirkpatrick, Mark (2017). Evolution (Fourth ed.). Sunderland, Massachusetts: Sinauer Associates. ISBN 978-1-60535-605-1. LCCN 2017000562. OCLC 969439375.

• Gould, Stephen Jay (2002). The Structure of Evolutionary Theory. Cambridge, Massachusetts: Belknap Press of Harvard University Press. ISBN 978-0-674-00613-3. LCCN 2001043556. OCLC 47869352.

• Gray, Peter (2007). Psychology (5th ed.). New York: Worth Publishers. ISBN 978-0-7167-0617-5. LCCN 2006921149. OCLC 76872504.

• Hall, Brian K.; Hallgrímsson, Benedikt (2008). Strickberger's Evolution (4th ed.). Sudbury, Massachusetts: Jones and Bartlett Publishers. ISBN 978-0-7637-0066-9. LCCN 2007008981. OCLC 85814089.

• Hennig, Willi (1999) [Originally published 1966 (reprinted 1979); translated from the author's unpublished revision of Grundzüge einer Theorie der phylogenetischen Systematik, published in 1950]. Phylogenetic Systematics. Translation by D. Dwight Davis and Rainer Zangerl; foreword by Donn E. Rosen, Gareth Nelson, and Colin Patterson (Reissue ed.). Urbana, Illinois: University of Illinois Press. ISBN 978-0-252-06814-0. LCCN 78031969. OCLC 722701473.

• Holland, John H. (1975). Adaptation in Natural and Artificial Systems: An Introductory Analysis with Applications to Biology, Control, and Artificial Intelligence. Ann Arbor, Michigan: University of Michigan Press. ISBN 978-0-472-08460-9. LCCN 74078988. OCLC 1531617.

• Kampourakis, Kostas (2014). Understanding Evolution. Cambridge; New York: Cambridge University Press. ISBN 978-1-107-03491-4. LCCN 2013034917. OCLC 855585457.

• Kirk, Geoffrey; Raven, John; Schofield, Malcolm (1983). The Presocratic Philosophers: A Critical History with a Selection of Texts (2nd ed.). Cambridge; New York: Cambridge University Press. ISBN 978-0-521-27455-5. LCCN 82023505. OCLC 9081712.

• Koza, John R. (1992). Genetic Programming: On the Programming of Computers by Means of Natural Selection. Complex Adaptive Systems. Cambridge, Massachusetts: MIT Press. ISBN 978-0-262-11170-6. LCCN 92025785. OCLC 26263956.

• Lamarck, Jean-Baptiste (1809). Philosophie Zoologique. Paris: Dentu et L'Auteur. OCLC 2210044. Philosophie zoologique (1809) at the Internet Archive. Retrieved 2014-11-29.

• Lane, David H. (1996). The Phenomenon of Teilhard: Prophet for a New Age (1st ed.). Macon, Georgia: Mercer University Press. ISBN 978-0-86554-498-7. LCCN 96008777. OCLC 34710780.

• Levinson, Gene (2019). Rethinking Evolution: The Revolution That's Hiding in Plain Sight. Hackensack, New Jersey: World Scientific. ISBN 978-1-78634-726-8. LCCN 2019013762. OCLC 1138095098.

• Lucretius. "Book V, lines 855–877". De Rerum Natura. Perseus Digital Library. Edited and translated by William Ellery Leonard (1916). Medford/Somerville, Massachusetts: Tufts University. OCLC 33233743. Archived from the original on 4 September 2014. Retrieved 25 November 2014.

• Mason, Stephen F. (1962). A History of the Sciences. Collier Books. Science Library, CS9 (New rev. ed.). New York: Collier Books. LCCN 62003378. OCLC 568032626.

• Maynard Smith, John (1978). The Evolution of Sex. Cambridge; New York: Cambridge University Press. ISBN 978-0-521-29302-0. LCCN 77085689. OCLC 3413793.

• Maynard Smith, John (1998). "The Units of Selection". In Bock, Gregory R.; Goode, Jamie A. (eds.). The Limits of Reductionism in Biology. Novartis Foundation Symposium. Novartis Foundation Symposia. Vol. 213. Chichester; New York: John Wiley & Sons. pp. 203–221. doi:10.1002/9780470515488.ch15. ISBN 978-0-471-97770-4. LCCN 98002779. OCLC 38311600. PMID 9653725. "Papers from the Symposium on the Limits of Reductionism in Biology, held at the Novartis Foundation, London, May 13–15, 1997."

• Mayr, Ernst (1942). Systematics and the Origin of Species from the Viewpoint of a Zoologist. Columbia Biological Series. Vol. 13. New York: Columbia University Press. LCCN 43001098. OCLC 766053.

• Mayr, Ernst (1982). The Growth of Biological Thought: Diversity, Evolution, and Inheritance. Translation of John Ray by E. Silk. Cambridge, Massachusetts: Belknap Press. ISBN 978-0-674-36445-5. LCCN 81013204. OCLC 7875904.

• Mayr, Ernst (2002) [Originally published 2001; New York: Basic Books]. What Evolution Is. Science Masters. London: Weidenfeld & Nicolson. ISBN 978-0-297-60741-0. LCCN 2001036562. OCLC 248107061.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Continued....

• McKinney, Michael L. (1997). "How do rare species avoid extinction? A paleontological view". In Kunin, William E.; Gaston, Kevin J. (eds.). The Biology of Rarity: Causes and consequences of rare—common differences (1st ed.). London; New York: Chapman & Hall. ISBN 978-0-412-63380-5. LCCN 96071014. OCLC 36442106.

• Miller, G. Tyler; Spoolman, Scott E. (2012). Environmental Science (14th ed.). Belmont, California: Brooks/Cole. ISBN 978-1-111-98893-7. LCCN 2011934330. OCLC 741539226. Retrieved 27 December 2014.

• Nardon, Paul; Grenier, Anne-Marie (1991). "Serial Endosymbiosis Theory and Weevil Evolution: The Role of Symbiosis". In Margulis, Lynn; Fester, René (eds.). Symbiosis as a Source of Evolutionary Innovation: Speciation and Morphogenesis. Cambridge, Massachusetts: MIT Press. ISBN 978-0-262-13269-5. LCCN 90020439. OCLC 22597587. "Based on a conference held in Bellagio, Italy, June 25–30, 1989"

• National Academy of Sciences; Institute of Medicine (2008). Science, Evolution, and Creationism. Washington, DC: National Academy Press. ISBN 978-0-309-10586-6. LCCN 2007015904. OCLC 123539346. Retrieved 22 November 2014.

• Odum, Eugene P. (1971). Fundamentals of Ecology (3rd ed.). Philadelphia, Pennsylvania: Saunders. ISBN 978-0-7216-6941-0. LCCN 76081826. OCLC 154846.

• Okasha, Samir (2006). Evolution and the Levels of Selection. Oxford; New York: Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-926797-2. LCCN 2006039679. OCLC 70985413.

• Panno, Joseph (2005). The Cell: Evolution of the First Organism. Facts on File science library. New York: Facts on File. ISBN 978-0-8160-4946-2. LCCN 2003025841. OCLC 53901436.

• Piatigorsky, Joram; Kantorow, Marc; Gopal-Srivastava, Rashmi; Tomarev, Stanislav I. (1994). "Recruitment of enzymes and stress proteins as lens crystallins". In Jansson, Bengt; Jörnvall, Hans; Rydberg, Ulf; et al. (eds.). Toward a Molecular Basis of Alcohol Use and Abuse. Exs. Experientia. Vol. 71. Basel; Boston: Birkhäuser Verlag. pp. 241–50. doi:10.1007/978-3-0348-7330-7_24. ISBN 978-3-7643-2940-2. LCCN 94010167. OCLC 30030941. PMID 8032155.

• Pigliucci, Massimo; Müller, Gerd B., eds. (2010). Evolution, the Extended Synthesis. Cambridge, Massachusetts: MIT Press. ISBN 978-0-262-51367-8. LCCN 2009024587. OCLC 804875316. Archived from the original on 18 September 2015.

• Provine, William B. (1971). The Origins of Theoretical Population Genetics. Chicago History of Science and Medicine (2nd ed.). Chicago, Illinois: University of Chicago Press. ISBN 978-0-226-68464-2. LCCN 2001027561. OCLC 46660910.

• Raven, Peter H.; Johnson, George B. (2002). Biology (6th ed.). Boston, Massachusetts: McGraw-Hill. ISBN 978-0-07-112261-0. LCCN 2001030052. OCLC 45806501.

• Ray, John (1686). Historia Plantarum [History of Plants]. Vol. I. Londini: Typis Mariæ Clark. LCCN agr11000774. OCLC 2126030.

• Rechenberg, Ingo (1973). Evolutionsstrategie; Optimierung technischer Systeme nach Prinzipien der biologischen Evolution (PhD thesis). Problemata (in German). Vol. 15. Afterword by Manfred Eigen. Stuttgart-Bad Cannstatt: Frommann-Holzboog. ISBN 978-3-7728-0373-4. LCCN 74320689. OCLC 9020616.

• Ridley, Mark (2004). Evolution. Oxford: Blackwell. ISBN 978-1-4051-0345-9.

• Stearns, Beverly Peterson; Stearns, Stephen C. (1999). Watching, from the Edge of Extinction. New Haven, Connecticut: Yale University Press. ISBN 978-0-300-08469-6. LCCN 98034087. OCLC 803522914.

• Stevens, Anthony (1982). Archetype: A Natural History of the Self. London: Routledge & Kegan Paul. ISBN 978-0-7100-0980-7. LCCN 84672250. OCLC 10458367.

• Voet, Donald; Voet, Judith G.; Pratt, Charlotte W. (2016). Fundamentals of Biochemistry: Life at the Molecular Level (Fifth ed.). Hoboken, New Jersey: John Wiley & Sons. ISBN 978-1-118-91840-1. LCCN 2016002847. OCLC 939245154.

• Wright, Sewall (1984). Genetic and Biometric Foundations. Evolution and the Genetics of Populations. Vol. 1. Chicago, Illinois: University of Chicago Press. ISBN 978-0-226-91038-3. LCCN 67025533. OCLC 246124737.

Further reading

Introductory reading

• Barrett, Paul H.; Weinshank, Donald J.; Gottleber, Timothy T., eds. (1981). A Concordance to Darwin's Origin of Species, First Edition. Ithaca, New York: Cornell University Press. ISBN 978-0-8014-1319-3. LCCN 80066893. OCLC 610057960.

• Carroll, Sean B. (2005). Endless Forms Most Beautiful: The New Science of Evo Devo and the Making of the Animal Kingdom. illustrations by Jamie W. Carroll, Josh P. Klaiss, Leanne M. Olds (1st ed.). New York: W.W. Norton & Company. ISBN 978-0-393-06016-4. LCCN 2004029388. OCLC 57316841.

• Charlesworth, Brian; Charlesworth, Deborah (2003). Evolution: A Very Short Introduction. Very Short Introductions. Oxford; New York: Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-280251-4. LCCN 2003272247. OCLC 51668497.

• Gould, Stephen Jay (1989). Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History (1st ed.). New York: W.W. Norton & Company. ISBN 978-0-393-02705-1. LCCN 88037469. OCLC 18983518.

• Jones, Steve (1999). Almost Like a Whale: The Origin of Species Updated. London; New York: Doubleday. ISBN 978-0-385-40985-8. LCCN 2002391059. OCLC 41420544.

o —— (2000). Darwin's Ghost: The Origin of Species Updated (1st ed.). New York: Random House. ISBN 978-0-375-50103-6. LCCN 99053246. OCLC 42690131. American version.

• Mader, Sylvia S. (2007). Biology. Significant contributions by Murray P. Pendarvis (9th ed.). Boston, Massachusetts: McGraw-Hill Higher Education. ISBN 978-0-07-246463-4. LCCN 2005027781. OCLC 61748307.

• Maynard Smith, John (1993). The Theory of Evolution (Canto ed.). Cambridge; New York: Cambridge University Press. ISBN 978-0-521-45128-4. LCCN 93020358. OCLC 27676642.

• Pallen, Mark J. (2009). The Rough Guide to Evolution. Rough Guides Reference Guides. London; New York: Rough Guides. ISBN 978-1-85828-946-5. LCCN 2009288090. OCLC 233547316.

Advanced reading

• Barton, Nicholas H.; Briggs, Derek E.G.; Eisen, Jonathan A.; et al. (2007). Evolution. Cold Spring Harbor, New York: Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory Press. ISBN 978-0-87969-684-9. LCCN 2007010767. OCLC 86090399.

• Coyne, Jerry A.; Orr, H. Allen (2004). Speciation. Sunderland, Massachusetts: Sinauer Associates. ISBN 978-0-87893-089-0. LCCN 2004009505. OCLC 55078441.

• Bergstrom, Carl T.; Dugatkin, Lee Alan (2012). Evolution (1st ed.). New York: W.W. Norton & Company. ISBN 978-0-393-91341-5. LCCN 2011036572. OCLC 729341924.

• Hall, Brian K.; Olson, Wendy, eds. (2003). Keywords and Concepts in Evolutionary Developmental Biology. Cambridge, Massachusetts: Harvard University Press. ISBN 978-0-674-00904-2. LCCN 2002192201. OCLC 50761342.

• Kauffman, Stuart A. (1993). The Origins of Order: Self-organization and Selection in Evolution. New York; Oxford: Oxford University Press. ISBN 978-0-19-507951-7. LCCN 91011148. OCLC 895048122.

• Maynard Smith, John; Szathmáry, Eörs (1995). The Major Transitions in Evolution. Oxford; New York: W.H. Freeman Spektrum. ISBN 978-0-7167-4525-9. LCCN 94026965. OCLC 30894392.

• Mayr, Ernst (2001). What Evolution Is. New York: Basic Books. ISBN 978-0-465-04426-9. LCCN 2001036562. OCLC 47443814.

• Minelli, Alessandro (2009). Forms of Becoming: The Evolutionary Biology of Development. Translation by Mark Epstein. Princeton, New Jersey; Oxford: Princeton University Press. ISBN 978-0-691-13568-7. LCCN 2008028825. OCLC 233030259.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

And by the exact same token you can't hold every one of these experiments in mind and see that our interpretation is wrong. It should be relatively easier since there are so few experiments that support any gradual change in species or that shows some individuals are less fit or less conscious.

Simply....amazing.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Nobody's beliefs has anything to do with reality and that applies to your beliefs as well. Only EXPERIMENT applies to reality and no experiment shows a gradual change in species caused by "survival of the fittest OR ANY OTHER MECHANISM. ALL OBSERVED CHANGE IS SUDDEN.



I've mentioned all my assumptions many times. But in this case they aren't completely relevant because all observation and all experiment support my perspective. I am merely reinterpreting experiment to more closely agree with the facts and evidence as I see them. It is called hypothesis formation.



Even now your assumption is showing. You are assuming the off spring are very similar to their parents because your BELIEF is that "Evolution" is gradual. There exists no such gradual change and every individual is principally a sort of amalgam of its parents. The reality is each juvenile is virtually the same as the parents until the species changes and then they are "suddenly" different. How can you consider another argument if you interject your own beliefs into it?

Every single experiment and observation says Darwin was wrong but we believe in "Evolution" so we see that Darwin was right. All change is sudden and all individuals are fit. Darwin was wrong.

By your wild illogic, I guess you can prove anything you like. The Himalayas weren't formed over time (because nobody -- ever -- saw that happen). Therefore, one instant there were no Himalayas, the next instant there were. Same for basically every other geological formation on this earth -- including the earth itself, the Sun and solar system, the galaxy in which they reside, the local group of galaxies, and the clusters and superclusters themselves -- all in one instant.

We can assume, likewise, the Hawaiian Islands weren't formed by volcanoes, nor the Grand Canyon by erosion -- you couldn't prove that because you couldn't observe it. Everything -- absolutely everything -- that science thinks it knows about how anything "formed" must be false, because if you can't see the formation for yourself, you ain't gonna believe it!

Lawd'a'Mercy!

 

[Wildswanderer]

Why?

Because that's the way kinds work.

 

[cladking]

By your wild illogic, I guess you can prove anything you like. The Himalayas weren't formed over time (because nobody -- ever -- saw that happen). Therefore, one instant there were no Himalayas, the next instant there were. Same for basically every other geological formation on this earth -- including the earth itself, the Sun and solar system, the galaxy in which they reside, the local group of galaxies, and the clusters and superclusters themselves -- all in one instant.

We can assume, likewise, the Hawaiian Islands weren't formed by volcanoes, nor the Grand Canyon by erosion -- you couldn't prove that because you couldn't observe it. Everything -- absolutely everything -- that science thinks it knows about how anything "formed" must be false, because if you can't see the formation for yourself, you ain't gonna believe it!

Lawd'a'Mercy!

None of this is true. We can see evidence of the gradual spread of the oceans over time in a multitude of ways.

Incidentally while the movement is often slow and regular most of the real changes to earth's landscape occurs in sudden fits and starts. The very nature of reality is a matter of repeating cycles and processes that express themselves suddenly but where life all change is sudden with things like plate tectonics or orbits most changes will tend to be gradual for protracted periods of time until there are sudden changes that are frequently violent. There's a lot going on in these "gradual" periods that are not apparent. There's are no gradual periods with life on any level and virtually all change in all life occurs in a very very brief period of time. I have an idea right now to go do something else so I'll dot this sentence and click "post reply".