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Burden of Proof is on Atheists

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
In case @leroy doesn't read the above posts the TLDR version is there is no scholarly consensus on the empty tomb. Just Christians that claim there is.

Try to think about it rationally. You want it to be a Roman crucifixion since the story involves Pontius Pilate. Part of the punishment was leaving the body up on a cross for a long time so that the memory did not fade. Romans did not care two figs about the religious beliefs of the people that they conquered. You would need to rewrite the story without Pilate, without guards to even have a tomb.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy again, no one need disprove your claims, you need to properly demonstrate sufficient objective evidence to support them.

I also offered 4 hypothetical alternatives to a supernatural event, more than once, none of which require inexplicable magic or appeals to mystery, so I can only assume you're trolling again?
"If you reject the resurrection (or the empty tomb ) just provide an alternative hypothesis that you think is better….. if you’ll had that hypothesis you would have share it like 4 months ago"

I've been giving him all of the latest historical work on this, which provides really precise alternatives and reasons and he's ignoring me, so....
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
I told you, 75% of scholars accept the empty tomb, so it´s not consensus but it is a strong majority.
Another review of Habermas article with added points after each paragraph. Summary from author:

1. This is not a peer-reviewed article. That is a BIG problem. Unless Habermas opens up his records; shares his data with other scholars; and allows other scholars to critique his data and methodology, all we have in this article is one man’s hearsay.

2. Habermas did NOT take a survey of scholars to arrive at his claim that “75% of scholars believe in the historicity of the Empty Tomb. This could have very easily been done. Why didn’t Habermas do this and why has he still not done this? No, instead of surveying scholars on this question, Habermas reviewed all articles on the subject of the Empty Tomb and recorded how many articles supported the historicity of this claim and how many did not support the historicity of this claim. There are several problems with this methodology. First, it only includes scholars who have written published articles on the Empty Tomb. What percentage of NT scholars have done so? He doesn’t tell us. However, it is safe to say that fundamentalist and evangelical NT scholars, whose faith and world view depend on the existence of an empty tomb, will have written many more articles on this subject than NT scholars for whom an empty tomb is unimportant (say, a Jewish scholar or a liberal Christian scholar).

Secondly, Habermas does not tell us whether or not he counted only authors of Empty Tomb articles or the total number of Empty Tomb articles. The problem here is that if he is basing his percentage on articles, not on scholars, his number will be biased towards the fundamentalist/evangelical position of an empty tomb and a bodily resurrection, as these scholars are much more motivated to write on this subject. For instance, if Mike Licona has written ten articles on the Empty Tomb, and someone like Levine has never or rarely ever written on this subject, Habermas’ statistics will be biased towards the conservative Christian position. We need to know this information before asserting just how accurate Habermas’ study really is.

3. Habermas states that the participants in his survey are primarily (Christian) theologians and NT scholars, with a smaller group of historians and philosophers. Why? This is an historical question, not a theological question. We are not asking scholars to tell us the meaning of Jesus’ death, for instance. That is a theological question. Why not ask the experts in the relative field: HISTORIANS! But I doubt that Habermas will ever want to do this because he knows that the results of this survey would most likely be very different from the results of his survey of mostly theologians and NT scholars.




A Review of Gary Habermas’ Claim that 75% of Scholars believe in the Historicity of the Empty Tomb
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Lets see

1 within 1 generation after the event, Paul was written 25 years after the crucifixion, the gospel of John was written within 70 years after the crusifixtion, all the other sources somewhere in between. …. The relevant thing is that we are talking about 1 generation.
Let's see .... Within one generation of Elvis Presley's death, people have claimed to have seen him all over the world.
The relevant thing is one generation, right? So Elvis is alive and well, yes?

By the way, your claim here is still describing hearsay.

2 in Jerusalem in the areas around

3 Paul´s letter where written by Paul who knew Peter James and many other first generation Christians the gospels where written by well-informed people who knew the stuff happening in that time/place
According to the story in the book.

4 Oral traditions and Creeds mainly.
Oral traditions show that people have seen leprechauns, chupacabras, banshees, etc.

"Oral tradition" is also hearsay.

5 current copies are surprisingly similar to the original manuscripts
What original manuscripts?

6 it´s good enough (credible enough) at least when it comes to the empty tomb and the other 4 facts for the reasons exposed earlier.

The empty tomb is part of a story in a book. Anybody can claim anything they want in a story. That's why outside corroboration is necessary.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
That would depend if it can be substantiated or not, as the definition demonstrates. How can you still not understand a simple word definition? Also I am not being cited as an historical source.


Because you keep changing the definition of hearsay. So according to you are anonymous documents hearsay by default? Yes or no? …… o wait true, you dont answer yes or no questions



it is a vital aspect of how historian evaluate source material, no matter how many times you ignore it.

Source criticism (or information evaluation) is the process of evaluating the qualities of an information source, such as its validity, reliability, and relevance to the subject under investigation.

  1. When was the source, written or unwritten, produced (date)?
  2. Where was it produced (localization)?
  3. By whom was it produced (authorship)?
  4. From what pre-existing material was it produced (analysis)?
  5. In what original form was it produced (integrity)?
  6. What is the evidential value of its contents (credibility)?
Ok lets say that we find conclusive evidence that the gospel of Mark was written by a man named Mark // would that change anything? Would the source become valid? Would it become independent? Would it become more reliable? Would it stop being hearsay? ……………… Please answer what would change if we find out that a man named Mark wrote the document
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
So second hand hearsay long after the event.
Ok what date would you consider appropriate and good enough? Should we reject all sources that where written 25 years after the fact? Or is it an other case of “we should only reject the sources that have theological implications that I don’t like”
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
I also offered 4 hypothetical alternatives to a supernatural event, more than once, none of which require inexplicable magic or appeals to mystery, so I can only assume you're trolling again?
Fantastic, and which of those hypothesis do you affirm is better than “the tomb was empty hypothesis”
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
We don't have any sources independent of Christianity and the bible to support the claim for an empty tomb.
And we don’t have any sources independent of NASA and the government confirming the landing on the moon. But that is not big of a deal.

You keep ignoring the argument the fact that we have more than one independent author reporting the same event strongly suggests that the event is historical, because it´s unlikely for 2 or more authors to have invented the same lie.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
There is no scholarly consensus on the claim for an empty tomb. The article you linked referred to authors including historians and theologians. You may want to look consensus up as well, as I don't think it means what you think it means.
I never said that there is a consensus I said that most scholars accept the empty tomb. (75%)
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Ok what date would you consider appropriate and good enough? Should we reject all sources that where written 25 years after the fact? Or is it an other case of “we should only reject the sources that have theological implications that I don’t like”
Contemporary sources might help a little.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
I never said that there is a consensus I said that most scholars accept the empty tomb. (75%)
:facepalm:

Consensus
noun
  1. a general agreement.
You really are priceless, and no they don't. There is no scholarly consensus on the claim for an empty tomb.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Average human lifetime was 38 years. Was not 1 generation. The consensus opinions on dating - The four canonical gospels were probably written between AD 66 and 110.


In a foreign language.


Paul also claimed to get messages from a demigod in Heaven. Not a good source.

Nowhere in the Gospels do they ever name their sources of information, nor do they read as eye witness testimonies (nor do they identify themselves as such), nor is it mentioned why any sources used would be accurate to rely upon. The authors never discuss any historical method used, nor do they acknowledge how some contents may be less accurate than others, nor do they mention alternate possibilities of the events given the limited information they had from their sources. The Greeks were commonly using this fictional biographical technique as a popular rhetorical device where they were taught to invent narratives about famous and legendary people, as well as to build a symbolic or moral message within it, and where they were taught to make changes to traditional stories in order to make whatever point they desired within their own stories.
There is no Roman documentation or archeological artifact to support the Barabbas story but it does obviously emulates the Jewish Yom Kippur ritual about atonement. The point of the story.
Barabbas means ‘Son of the Father’ in Aramaic, coincidence? In the story Barabbas is the militant messiah and Jesus is the suffering servant messiah. Multiple allegorical layers weaved into one.
In Mark we also have narratives from Jesus ben Ananias (verbatim), Kings, Psalms, the wilderness narrative of Moses, elements of Isaiah 53, Zechariah 9-14, and Wisdom 2 as sources for his narratives, makes a version of Elisha in 2 Kings 4.17-37 and clearly reworks many of the stories from Paul or uses him verbatim. There are at least 6 peer-reviewed papers on this alone.
This isn't all of the sources but it does leave very little room for any oral tradition.
From these sources Mark is making this up.
Before you say this is considered a historical biography, Plutarch’s Life of Romulus is also written as a historical biography.


As we have seen the oral tradition is largely ruled out.


There were 40 gospels. The first canon was the Marcionite Canon. Completely unknown to us now. 2nd century was 50% Gnostic. For about One Hundred and Fifty Years different Gnostic Christians argued with Marcionite and other sects. All wildly different. The modern canon was decided in 367 AD. Because those 4 random documents match some early documents that doesn't mean much.
But the first 200 years being complete confusion really demonstrates there ARE NO FACTS here. Just competing legends.




As we have seen there is excellent evidence all 4 Gospels sourced Mark.
The consensus among mainstream scholars is the Gospel narratives are myth, loosely based on a person.
Habernas paper is bias and uses faulty methods.
Any events in a myth may be and are likely fiction.
If you believe apologists are only interested in telling things that are true rather than bending the truth in various ways to get results they set out to achieve you will always be wrong.
The new testament was written by:

1 well informed people

2 people who honestly wanted to report what they thought was true

¿what else do you want? That is the best type of source that you will ever have in ancient history.

1 well informed people: we know this because most of the verifiable historical facts reported in these documents are true.

2 people who honestly wanted to report what they thought was true: we know this because they reported multiple embarrassing events, (events that would go against their goal) for example death by crucifixion was a very embarrassing and denigrating death, (which made Jesus look bad) if the authors where liars they would have had invented another story.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
"If you reject the resurrection (or the empty tomb ) just provide an alternative hypothesis that you think is better….. if you’ll had that hypothesis you would have share it like 4 months ago"

I've been giving him all of the latest historical work on this, which provides really precise alternatives and reasons and he's ignoring me, so....
It's his standard MO, misdirect, misrepresent, and deny deny deny...not very compelling really. His arguments are not helped by his mediocre grasp and use of language, even simple word definitions have to be explained over and over again.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
1. This is not a peer-reviewed article. That is a BIG problem. Unless Habermas opens up his records; shares his data with other scholars; and allows other scholars to critique his data and methodology, all we have in this article is one man’s hearsay.
Pointed this out at the time, have indicated he (the site author) is a theist (see bias) all to no avail. I can't tell how much of @leroy's bias is wilful, and how much is an inability to reason beyond the most facile level.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Let's see .... Within one generation of Elvis Presley's death, people have claimed to have seen him all over the world.
The relevant thing is one generation, right? So Elvis is alive and well, yes?

That's some good darts...:cool:

By the way, your claim here is still describing hearsay.
Oral traditions show that people have seen leprechauns, chupacabras, banshees, etc.

"Oral tradition" is also hearsay.

Oh no, he won't like this.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Independent
adjective
  1. free from outside control; not subject to another's authority.

Wow note that the definition of independent doesn’t include “written by a known author”

Wow note I never claimed it did. :rolleyes: Wow note you ignored the entire post again. Wow, note you can't extrapolate the consequences of a simple word definition.

OK dumbing down time again then. Try this simple question:

If a source is unknown, how do we know that it is "free from outside control; not subject to another's authority?"

Do take your time, but do bear in mind it is part of a single religion, and book. :rolleyes:
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
In case @leroy doesn't read the above posts the TLDR version is there is no scholarly consensus on the empty tomb. Just Christians that claim there is.

Try to think about it rationally. You want it to be a Roman crucifixion since the story involves Pontius Pilate. Part of the punishment was leaving the body up on a cross for a long time so that the memory did not fade. Romans did not care two figs about the religious beliefs of the people that they conquered. You would need to rewrite the story without Pilate, without guards to even have a tomb.

We know that some crucified people where buried, we have both documents and the actual tombs of people who died in the cross….. this means that at least sometimes Romans made an exception.

We know that some crucified people where buried, we have both historical documents that report this and the actual tombs of people who died in the cross….. this means that at least sometimes Romans made exeptions




Romans did not care two figs about the religious beliefs
That is the point, Jesus´s crime was “blasphemy against the Jewish God” something that the romans would have not considered a serious crime.

So the claim that Jesus was an exception and he was buried (like many other crucified victims) is not very unlikely.// the alternative “that Paul and the authors of the gospels invented their own story and by just by chance they happened to invent the same event” sound much more unlikely.
 

Sheldon

Veteran Member
Because you keep changing the definition of hearsay.

Not once have I ever done this, as anyone with a basic level of literacy can attest if they go back and look.

So according to you are anonymous documents hearsay by default? Yes or no? …… o wait true, you dont answer yes or no questions

Can they be substantiated? :rolleyes::facepalm:

Hearsay
noun
  1. information received from other people which cannot be substantiated; rumour.
Is this sinking in at all yet?

Dear god....I could have taught this word definition to a vegetable by now. :facepalm:
 
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