Nice story.
You don't believe everything scientists claim, do you? "We found evidence of marine sediments and a lot of beasties that would have been living quietly in the sea before being thrown inland," Goff said in the statement. "And we found all these very high up and a long way inland, so it could not have been a storm that put them there."
Maybe a flood. They don't know.
I was thinking of the Great Storm of 1703, and what sources people believed. No scientists were able to trace the cause of the destruction, but those who witnessed it documented it.
I think I will stick to the primary source for now. Since it's more reliable than guesswork subject to change... although in this case, I doubt very much anyone will bother further researching if this belief is true or not.
I mean, who really cares about these things except people who can get away with almost any idea that cannot be proved, or disproved.
When you say think differently, you are probably referring to particular end-time prophecies, and what their meaning is - such as those recorded in Daniel and Revelation.
However, what different religious people think on how particular end-time prophecies are fulfilled, doesn't alter the fact that they are end-time prophecies, and they are indicated to have begun to be fulfilled with current events, of which they all agree.
Post #1 There has never ever ever ever been a time when all - a l l - the events foretold, has taken place 1) all at the same time; 2) all with the same measure of increasing intensity; 3) all over the world - universally.
I am closely listening, and waiting with great interest for someone to produce data that proves this not to be 1000% true.
Post #2 That's the significant difference there. The prophecies regarding the last days of this system is a composite sign. All parts make the whole. Take just this one part, for example Matthew 24:14. This is entirely absent in Rome... at any time... except today.
Can you elaborate on how one contradicts the other? Thanks.
Perhaps you are thinking of the last sentence, but the last clause says that Matthew 24:14 is not absent in Rome Today.
Is that what you meant?
There's nothing there that I can see, which changes or invalidates what I would have said, since the prophecies are not about how bad statistics of one event is, as compared with another.
For example, say we had an earthquake 3000 years ago, that killed 8,000,000 people. That doesn't mean there aren't 1) more earthquakes with 2) more intensity, 3) occurring all over the world - universally... at the same time (period), than 3,000 years ago.
Those three points are key.
The other factors, like the fact that people did not have properly built structures (which they probably did 3,000 years ago), or they dwelt in mountainous regions, or unstable terrain, or they were all gathered in the same general location... etc, so that an earthquake of 4.8 magnitude took many lives, does not deny those three key points, which makes the significant difference.
Sorry, but I don't understand what you are talking about. Because are you saying that 3000 years ago, people did have properly built houses? And I also really didn't understand the point of the rest of what you were saying, therefore, can you elaborate a bit more?
If it were about the statistics of one event compared to another, we would have a case of one person looking at the number of death, and the other looking at the rate of magnitude.
So one person would say, it was worst because 8,000000 persons died, even though the magnitude was 4.8, and the other person would be arguing that it was worst because the magnitude was far greater - 7.0 - even though very few died, if any at all.
It's not about that. That's not key.
I'm not sure. Because how would we know that there have been more earthquakes throughout the earth since the year 1914 if we didn't have modern instruments to measure seismic activity and earthquake activity until the year 1890?
For earthquakes that occurred between about 1890 (when modern seismographs came into use) and 1935 when Charles Richter developed the magnitude scale, people went back to the old records and compared the seismograms from those days with similar records for later earthquakes. For earthquakes prior to about 1890, magnitudes have been estimated by looking at the physical effects (such as amount of faulting, landslides, sandblows or river channel changes) plus the human effects (such as the area of damage or felt reports or how strongly a quake was felt) and comparing them to modern earthquakes.
Many assumptions have to be made when making these comparisons. For example, how do you compare the shaking for people living in log cabins or tents in the early 1800s with shaking for people living in high-rise steel and concrete buildings (with waterbeds!) in the 1990s? Because different researchers can get widely varying magnitudes from using different assumptions on how to make these comparisons, many of the old earthquakes have big differences in the magnitudes assigned to them. For example, magnitude estimates for the quakes that occurred near New Madrid, Missouri in 1811 and 1812 vary from the upper magnitude 6 range to as high as 8.8, all because of the choices the researchers made about how to compare the data.
Those three points are key.
The other factors, like the fact that people did not have properly built structures (which they probably did 3,000 years ago), or they dwelt in mountainous regions, or unstable terrain, or they were all gathered in the same general location... etc, so that an earthquake of 4.8 magnitude took many lives, does not deny those three key points, which makes the significant difference.
If it were about the statistics of one event compared to another, we would have a case of one person looking at the number of death, and the other looking at the rate of magnitude.
So one person would say, it was worst because 8,000000 persons died, even though the magnitude was 4.8, and the other person would be arguing that it was worst because the magnitude was far greater - 7.0 - even though very few died, if any at all.
It's not about that. That's not key.
The earliest earthquake for which we have descriptive information occurred in China in 1177 B.C. The Chinese earthquake catalog describes several dozen large earthquakes in China during the next few thousand years. Earthquakes in Europe are mentioned as early as 580 B.C., but the earliest for which we have some descriptive information occurred in the mid-16th century. The earliest known earthquakes in the Americas were in Mexico in the late 14th century and in Peru in 1471, but descriptions of the effects were not well documented. By the 17th century, descriptions of the effects of earthquakes were being published around the world - although these accounts were often exaggerated or distorted.
Yes that is a threat, but principally to those participating in American life. That was kind of my point when I mentioned expatriation. Those don't have to be one's problems if he has the option to leave.
I lost faith in America about 20 years ago, following 9/11 and the invasion of Iraq. I recognized that it and I were parting ways, and that it no longer represented my values. I could see that the problems wouldn't be fixed, but rather, would continue to deteriorate for the rest of my life (I was in my late forties then). I could see that the government no longer was interested in the needs of ordinary citizens, that a class war had been waged and won by the future billionaires before anybody knew what was happening. I had suffered something similar professionally, when HMOs were formed, which asked me to be an advocate for the insurer rather than the patient and paid me less to accept more liability as I lost control of managing my patients. This was done for the insurance industry, not doctors or patients, just as the Medicare part D decision to forbid competitive drug pricing was a gift to the pharmaceutical industry on the backs of citizens. Eventually, one realizes that this is not his country any longer, that's its government is not there for him, that the preface to the Constitution had become lip service as the government essentially pursued the opposite. Pledging allegiance to that is approaching Stockholm syndrome.
So, I seceded from America. Now, most of what you listed is much less of a problem. The Supreme Court, mass shootings, rampant racism, unbridled selfishness, nonstop fear and anger in the air - it all went away when I did. Life is simpler, beautiful, and happier again.
A couple we know living here in Mexico with us just visited family in Georgia and Florida, and he reported to me last week how psychologically oppressive it was to be there even for a week, and how happy he was to be back to a happier place. It's like being in a room with a bad smell or an annoying repetitive sound that you stopped being fully aware of until you walked out of the room and came back in. We all come here wound tight from that food fight, and it takes a few years away to decompress fully. I haven't visited the States since my mother passed away in 2012, and that was an unpleasant experience at the airport with insolent and arrogant TSA agent creating my last memory of American life.
I'm just now reading this post, but thank you for that, It Aint Necessarily So. Also, in my opinion, this is probably the best answer to the thread topic.
You and the rest of the Maga community are a large part of why I left. When I did, it was just after the Bush era, the days of Gingrich and Falwell, of Rove and Cheney, of Limbaugh and Hannity - not full-blown Maga yet. That was plenty ugly even then, before the rise of white nationalism and white supremacy, of Karens and antivaxxers, of rednecks in Wal-Mart carrying assault rifles, and of Gilead.
Oh. I see, you are not very familiar with these things.
I'll walk you through it. I hope you are the patient type.
Jesus said to his followers...
(Matthew 24:32-39) 32 “Now learn this illustration from the fig tree: Just as soon as its young branch grows tender and sprouts its leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 Likewise also you, when you see all these things, know that he is near at the doors. 34 Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things happen. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will by no means pass away. 36 “Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the Flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, 39 and they took no note until the Flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.
What was Jesus talking about?
(Luke 21:29-31) 29 With that he told them an illustration: “Notice the fig tree and all the other trees. 30 When they are budding, you see it for yourselves and know that now the summer is near. 31 Likewise also you, when you see these things happening, know that the Kingdom of God is near.
His presence in kingdom power. In other words, when he began ruling in the kingdom, in heaven, invisible to those on earth.
This was in response to a two fold question from his disciples.
(Matthew 24:1-3) 1 Now as Jesus was departing from the temple, his disciples approached to show him the buildings of the temple. 2 In response he said to them: “Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, by no means will a stone be left here upon a stone and not be thrown down.” 3 While he was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?”
The question : 1) When Jerusalem would be sacked, and 2) when he would have begun ruling from heaven.
Jesus gave them the signs to look for, both for the sacking of Jerusalem, and the time he would be present as king in heaven. Matthew 24:4-27
I think you are focused only on the end-times though. So that would be Matthew 24:7-14.
Using the illustration of the fig tree, Jesus makes the point that it will be a clear sign for all to recognize... especially his disciples, since they involve aspects associated with worship.
The Christians - true followers of Christ, and his example, will look for these signs.
As true watchmen (Matthew 24:45), they watch for the fulfillment of those signs, and are able to tell when the "fig tree begins to bud".
Because the disciples of Christ are confident that Jesus will keep his word they are not like those Jesus mentioned here...
(Luke 12:54-56) 54 Then he also said to the crowds: “When you see a cloud rising in the west, at once you say, ‘A storm is coming,’ and it happens. 55 And when you see that a south wind is blowing, you say, ‘There will be a heat wave,’ and it occurs. 56 Hypocrites, you know how to examine the appearance of earth and sky, but why do you not know how to examine this particular time?
In other words, simply put, they are not merely skeptical... especially in view of the fact that they aren't living a fantasy, as some would suggest.
Thus they trust the Bible, in its entirety, and use it as a whole.
Many people trust the weather forecasters, who are fairly accurate, though, not always. God is always accurate in what he foretells.
So, here we go... I said it would require patience.
Daniel 2:1 In the second year of his kingship, Nebuchadnezzar had a number of dreams, and he was so agitated that he could not sleep.
Daniel 2:19 . . .the secret was revealed to Daniel in a vision at night. So Daniel praised the God of heaven. . .
Daniel 2:29-31 29 “As for you, O king, on your bed your thoughts turned to what is to take place in the future, and the Revealer of secrets has made known to you what is to happen. 30 As for me, this secret was not revealed to me because I have greater wisdom than anyone living; rather, it was to make the interpretation known to the king so that you may know the thoughts in your heart. 31 “You, O king, were watching, and you saw an immense image. That image, which was huge and extremely bright, was standing in front of you, and its appearance was terrifying.
Daniel 2:36-45
It's designed for children, but don't worry. It's cool. There's still that child in me.
Daniel 7 describes 4 beasts in a vision Daniel is given.
Very accurately, this describes the rise of successive world powers and the installment of the kings of God's kingdom. Notice here that the son of man is crowned ruler, as well as the holy ones of the supreme one (the saints)
(Daniel 8:20-21 20 “The two-horned ram that you saw stands for the kings of Media and Persia. 21The hairy male goat stands for the king of Greece; and the great horn that was between its eyes stands for the first king.
The fourth beasts identity, is revealed in Revelation .
Revelation 17:9-11 9 “This calls for a mind that has wisdom: The seven heads mean seven mountains, where the woman sits on top. 10 And there are seven kings: Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet arrived; but when he does arrive, he must remain a short while. 11 And the wild beast that was but is not, it is also an eighth king, but it springs from the seven, and it goes off into destruction.
Rome is the existing world power, at the time of Revelation being written - First century A.D.
I did a little image for you as a visual aid, of what we have so far.
All professes Christians agree with this, as far as I know.
There is only one part of the image, and prophecies related to it, which they disagree on - the toes of the image.
Edit @David Davidovich I forgot to mention... So we know that 1) We are in the period of the last world power, and 2) world events indicate that the last days began. We are living them.
I hope your patience lasted.
What does my religion teach on this.
Although it doesn't go into details, this image gives the identity of the toes. This video give another prophecy, which gives those of my religion a marker, which evidently fits nicely with the other prophecies, mentioned in Revelation 6:1-8, and Luke 21:10-11.
See this thread.
Sorry, but I don't understand what you are talking about. Because are you saying that 3000 years ago, people did have properly built houses? And I also really didn't understand the point of the rest of what you were saying, therefore, can you elaborate a bit more?
Sorry if I confused you. I was using an example.
I'm saying there are factors which can make one thing worst than another.
For example, more people may die in an earthquake due to certain factors (e.g. an unstable apartment building; drilling around a cave; etc.), rather than the severity of the earthquake.
I'm not sure. Because how would we know that there have been more earthquakes throughout the earth since the year 1914 if we didn't have modern instruments to measure seismic activity and earthquake activity until the year 1890?
For earthquakes that occurred between about 1890 (when modern seismographs came into use) and 1935 when Charles Richter developed the magnitude scale, people went back to the old records and compared the seismograms from those days with similar records for later earthquakes. For earthquakes prior to about 1890, magnitudes have been estimated by looking at the physical effects (such as amount of faulting, landslides, sandblows or river channel changes) plus the human effects (such as the area of damage or felt reports or how strongly a quake was felt) and comparing them to modern earthquakes.
Many assumptions have to be made when making these comparisons. For example, how do you compare the shaking for people living in log cabins or tents in the early 1800s with shaking for people living in high-rise steel and concrete buildings (with waterbeds!) in the 1990s? Because different researchers can get widely varying magnitudes from using different assumptions on how to make these comparisons, many of the old earthquakes have big differences in the magnitudes assigned to them. For example, magnitude estimates for the quakes that occurred near New Madrid, Missouri in 1811 and 1812 vary from the upper magnitude 6 range to as high as 8.8, all because of the choices the researchers made about how to compare the data.
Yes. I actually saw that article. In fact I posted it in a thread - Sources vs Science.
That was my question regarding the limits of science.
What you are pointing out, should be of interest to skeptics. Don't go looking for unicorns.
In other words, there is no evidence that there were many earthquakes in the past, but we have evidence, that they are many earthquakes occurring now, and increasingly so,
Anyone denying this, might as well deny climate change.
Scientists are even saying that there is an increase of super typhoons.
So, yes, we know there has been in increase of crime, gun violence... definitely gun violence . poverty, promiscuity, drug abuse, pestilences, hurricanes - not storms - hurricanes, or super storms, earthquakes, wars, selfishness... I'm sure I missed something...
Jesus said to his followers...
(Matthew 24:32-39) 32 “Now learn this illustration from the fig tree: Just as soon as its young branch grows tender and sprouts its leaves, you know that summer is near. 33 Likewise also you, when you see all these things, know that he is near at the doors. 34 Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things happen. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will by no means pass away. 36 “Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the Flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, 39 and they took no note until the Flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.
What was Jesus talking about?
(Luke 21:29-31) 29 With that he told them an illustration: “Notice the fig tree and all the other trees. 30 When they are budding, you see it for yourselves and know that now the summer is near. 31 Likewise also you, when you see these things happening, know that the Kingdom of God is near.
His presence in kingdom power. In other words, when he began ruling in the kingdom, in heaven, invisible to those on earth.
This was in response to a two fold question from his disciples.
(Matthew 24:1-3) 1 Now as Jesus was departing from the temple, his disciples approached to show him the buildings of the temple. 2 In response he said to them: “Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, by no means will a stone be left here upon a stone and not be thrown down.” 3 While he was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?”
The question : 1) When Jerusalem would be sacked, and 2) when he would have begun ruling from heaven.
I'm sorry, but I'm a bit confused here because how could Jesus followers ask him about when he would have begun ruling in heaven when they weren't supposed to have had any idea that he was going to die and/or was going to heaven?
Jesus gave them the signs to look for, both for the sacking of Jerusalem, and the time he would be present as king in heaven. Matthew 24:4-27
I think you are focused only on the end-times though. So that would be Matthew 24:7-14.
Nope. I don't know if you read through or looked through my entire OP, but I made it clear that I did understand that Matthew 24 was supposed have been a dual prophecy and that for people who had a religious answer to my question, I was NOT interested in the viewpoint that the Matthew 24 prophecy was only about Jerusalem.
Using the illustration of the fig tree, Jesus makes the point that it will be a clear sign for all to recognize... especially his disciples, since they involve aspects associated with worship.
So, have you looked at any of the other posts in this thread? Especially, It Aint Necessarily So's post #22(link)? Therefore, I'm not sure how you can say that it will be a clear sign for all to recognize.
The Christians - true followers of Christ, and his example, will look for these signs.
As true watchmen (Matthew 24:45), they watch for the fulfillment of those signs, and are able to tell when the "fig tree begins to bud".
Interesting. So, when exactly was this fig tree supposed to have begun to bud? Although, I recall you mentioning the year 1914 in one of replies to someone else.
Because the disciples of Christ are confident that Jesus will keep his word they are not like those Jesus mentioned here...
(Luke 12:54-56) 54 Then he also said to the crowds: “When you see a cloud rising in the west, at once you say, ‘A storm is coming,’ and it happens. 55 And when you see that a south wind is blowing, you say, ‘There will be a heat wave,’ and it occurs. 56 Hypocrites, you know how to examine the appearance of earth and sky, but why do you not know how to examine this particular time?
In other words, simply put, they are not merely skeptical... especially in view of the fact that they aren't living a fantasy, as some would suggest.
Thus they trust the Bible, in its entirety, and use it as a whole.
Many people trust the weather forecasters, who are fairly accurate, though, not always. God is always accurate in what he foretells.
So, here we go... I said it would require patience.
Daniel 2:1 In the second year of his kingship, Nebuchadnezzar had a number of dreams, and he was so agitated that he could not sleep.
Daniel 2:19 . . .the secret was revealed to Daniel in a vision at night. So Daniel praised the God of heaven. . .
Daniel 2:29-31 29 “As for you, O king, on your bed your thoughts turned to what is to take place in the future, and the Revealer of secrets has made known to you what is to happen. 30 As for me, this secret was not revealed to me because I have greater wisdom than anyone living; rather, it was to make the interpretation known to the king so that you may know the thoughts in your heart. 31 “You, O king, were watching, and you saw an immense image. That image, which was huge and extremely bright, was standing in front of you, and its appearance was terrifying.
Daniel 2:36-45
It's designed for children, but don't worry. It's cool. There's still that child in me.
Daniel 7 describes 4 beasts in a vision Daniel is given.
Very accurately, this describes the rise of successive world powers and the installment of the kings of God's kingdom. Notice here that the son of man is crowned ruler, as well as the holy ones of the supreme one (the saints)
(Daniel 8:20-21 20 “The two-horned ram that you saw stands for the kings of Media and Persia. 21The hairy male goat stands for the king of Greece; and the great horn that was between its eyes stands for the first king.
The fourth beasts identity, is revealed in Revelation .
Revelation 17:9-11 9 “This calls for a mind that has wisdom: The seven heads mean seven mountains, where the woman sits on top. 10 And there are seven kings: Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet arrived; but when he does arrive, he must remain a short while. 11 And the wild beast that was but is not, it is also an eighth king, but it springs from the seven, and it goes off into destruction.
Rome is the existing world power, at the time of Revelation being written - First century A.D.
I did a little image for you as a visual aid, of what we have so far. View attachment 63427
All professes Christians agree with this, as far as I know.
I have to admit that my mind started to wander when reading your above quote, so, I didn't really read every detail. However, I do want to say that I don't think that all "professes"(although, I think that you meant professed) Christians agree with that.
There is only one part of the image, and prophecies related to it, which they disagree on - the toes of the image.
Edit @David Davidovich I forgot to mention... So we know that 1) We are in the period of the last world power, and 2) world events indicate that the last days began. We are living them.
I hope your patience lasted.
Yes. I actually saw that article. In fact I posted it in a thread - Sources vs Science.
That was my question regarding the limits of science.
What you are pointing out, should be of interest to skeptics. Don't go looking for unicorns.
In other words, there is no evidence that there were many earthquakes in the past, but we have evidence, that they are many earthquakes occurring now, and increasingly so,
Anyone denying this, might as well deny climate change.
But that's my point. Because couldn't any period in history have earthquakes, one place after another? However, I could see if Jesus had predicted something specific such as blazing wildfires in one place after another. But instead, Jesus predicted common things that applied to almost any time period during history.
So, yes, we know there has been in increase of crime, gun violence... definitely gun violence . poverty, promiscuity, drug abuse, pestilences, hurricanes - not storms - hurricanes, or super storms, earthquakes, wars, selfishness... I'm sure I missed something...
Once again, I was thinking about It Aint Necessarily So's post about how all this isn't universal. Also, if you live in the United States, we all have the false perception of tv shows from the past such as Leave If To Beaver and The Brady Bunch, which veiled the true social problems that did exist at that time. However, I will admit that things have definitely gotten worse within the last 10 or 15 years or so.
So, how would you even know that Jesus began ruling invisibly in heaven? And when was this to supposed to have begun?
I'm sorry, but I'm a bit confused here because how could Jesus followers ask him about when he would have begun ruling in heaven when they weren't supposed to have had any idea that he was going to die and/or was going to heaven?
Nope. I don't know if you read through or looked through my entire OP, but I made it clear that I did understand that Matthew 24 was supposed have been a dual prophecy and that for people who had a religious answer to my question, I was NOT interested in the viewpoint that the Matthew 24 prophecy was only about Jerusalem.
So, have you looked at any of the other posts in this thread? Especially, It Aint Necessarily So's post #22(link)? Therefore, I'm not sure how you can say that it will be a clear sign for all to recognize.
Interesting. So, when exactly was this fig tree supposed to have begun to bud? Although, I recall you mentioning the year 1914 in one of replies to someone else.
Always? Well, not from what I have seen. However, that's a different topic for a different thread.
I have to admit that my mind started to wander when reading your above quote, so, I didn't really read every detail. However, I do want to say that I don't think that all "professes"(although, I think that you meant professed) Christians agree with that.
Okay, I will be looking for your replies to the questions that I asked you.
...but I answered your questions in the post. If you don't go through the entire post, you would miss the answers... as you indicated. ...and you would say "I do want to say that I don't think that all "professes"(although, I think that you meant professed) Christians agree with that."
Yes. I meant professed. I did prove that all professed Christians agree on that... if "that" refers to what I said.
No. Jesus was familiar with storms. Not hurricanes.
Jesus was familiar with earthquakes. These....
Exodus 19:18; Numbers 16:31-33; Joshua 6:20; Judges 5:4; 1 Kings 19:11; Isaiah 29:5-7; Zechariah 14:3-5; Matthew 27:51-54; Matthew 28:2; Acts of the Apostles 16:26
Were there others? Yes. Josephus mentioned one that occured in 31 B.C.
However, frequent earthquakes in many parts of the world were evidently not significant enough to mention.
They say Palestine was subject to frequent earthquakes, the volcanic nature of the region around the Dead Sea and the Sea of Gennesaret being a contributory cause. The earthquake mentioned under Ahab (I Kings xix. 11) is legendary, but that under Uzziah (809-759 B.C.) is historical: time was counted from it (Amos i. 1; Zech. xiv. 5). Ibn Ezra and R. David Ḳimḥi refer Amos' entire prophecy, especially Amos ix. 1, to this earthquake (comp. Eusebius, "Demonstratio Evangelica," vi. 18).
So, Jesus knew of earthquakes, yet he said, "For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress." (Matthew 24:7-8)
There would be a difference.
Would everyone accept that? No. ...as they don't accept many other things.
However, I could see if Jesus had predicted something specific such as blazing wildfires in one place after another. But instead, Jesus predicted common things that applied to almost any time period during history.
To those listening and paying attention to his words, they would look for the difference between typhoons then, and typhoons now, and be able to see the difference.
Once again, I was thinking about It Aint Necessarily So's post about how all this isn't universal. Also, if you live in the United States, we all have the false perception of tv shows from the past such as Leave If To Beaver and The Brady Bunch, which veiled the true social problems that did exist at that time. However, I will admit that things have definitely gotten worse within the last 10 or 15 years or so.
...but I answered your questions in the post. If you don't go through the entire post, you would miss the answers... as you indicated. ...and you would say "I do want to say that I don't think that all "professes"(although, I think that you meant professed) Christians agree with that."
Yes. I meant professed. I did prove that all professed Christians agree on that... if "that" refers to what I said.
Could you give me a more succinct version of your answer as to why the year 1914 is the year the time of the end began? Because unfortunately, everyone does not have the time to read all the details of everyone's posts, and it would help if you give me a more concise version.
I would say things are generally better now than they were on average in the past. War related deaths are at an all time low, the average person's quality of living is higher, most countries are seeing a forward progression in civil rights, with some exceptions of course....
I think that the problems we have today are still very important to work on, but I am still glad I live in this day and age as opposed to 50, 100, 1000 years ago. I'm proud of the progress we've made and I hope progress continues in a positive direction, and that we can address the remaining issues in a timely matter (considering some are more time sensitive than others, lol).
No. Jesus was familiar with storms. Not hurricanes.
Jesus was familiar with earthquakes. These....
Exodus 19:18; Numbers 16:31-33; Joshua 6:20; Judges 5:4; 1 Kings 19:11; Isaiah 29:5-7; Zechariah 14:3-5; Matthew 27:51-54; Matthew 28:2; Acts of the Apostles 16:26
I don't understand. I know that most Christians believe that Jesus is God and that he created the world, and that your religion believes that at one time, Jesus was God's first created angel who was there when God created the earth and assisted God in creating the earth, therefore, I don't understand how you can say that Jesus was familiar with storms, but not hurricanes.
Were there others? Yes. Josephus mentioned one that occured in 31 B.C.
However, frequent earthquakes in many parts of the world were evidently not significant enough to mention.
They say Palestine was subject to frequent earthquakes, the volcanic nature of the region around the Dead Sea and the Sea of Gennesaret being a contributory cause. The earthquake mentioned under Ahab (I Kings xix. 11) is legendary, but that under Uzziah (809-759 B.C.) is historical: time was counted from it (Amos i. 1; Zech. xiv. 5). Ibn Ezra and R. David Ḳimḥi refer Amos' entire prophecy, especially Amos ix. 1, to this earthquake (comp. Eusebius, "Demonstratio Evangelica," vi. 18).
So, Jesus knew of earthquakes, yet he said, "For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress." (Matthew 24:7-8)
There would be a difference.
Would everyone accept that? No. ...as they don't accept many other things.
Well, you said that the gospel of Jesus was preached to the entire inhabited earth during the first century, except for in Rome, however, I don't understand why there is a Bible book called Romans if that's true.
Letter of Paul to the Romans, also called Epistle of St. Paul the Apostle to the Romans, abbreviation Romans, sixth book of the New Testament and the longest and doctrinally most significant of St. Paul the Apostle’s writings. It was probably composed at Corinth in about 57 CE. The epistle was addressed to the Christian church at Rome, whose congregation Paul hoped to visit for the first time on his way to Spain.
Is Matthew 24:7 specially referring to a world war? Because there have always been nations that have risen against other nations and kingdoms that have risen against other kingdoms.
To those listening and paying attention to his words, they would look for the difference between typhoons then, and typhoons now, and be able to see the difference.
Jesus makes the point that it will be a clear sign for all to recognize... especially his disciples, since they involve aspects associated with worship.
But if you read It Aint Necessarily So's post that I referred you to, then you would realize that that's not true.
Huh? I don't really understand where that question is coming from, however, I'm just having a discussion to share points of view. But now your question caused me to ask the question: Are you looking to convince me to accept what you presented to me?
And one more thing. Lost in all the minutia, I noticed that you didn't answer my one question:
I'm sorry, but I'm a bit confused here because how could Jesus followers ask him about when he would have begun ruling in heaven when they weren't supposed to have had any idea that he was going to die and/or was going to heaven?
Also, I had never thought of that question previously until I read you say:
This was in response to a two fold question from his disciples.
emphasis mine
And for some reason, what you said made me think of that question.
I would say things are generally better now than they were on average in the past. War related deaths are at an all time low, the average person's quality of living is higher, most countries are seeing a forward progression in civil rights, with some exceptions of course....
I think that the problems we have today are still very important to work on, but I am still glad I live in this day and age as opposed to 50, 100, 1000 years ago. I'm proud of the progress we've made and I hope progress continues in a positive direction, and that we can address the remaining issues in a timely matter (considering some are more time sensitive than others, lol).
As bad as things are now, are things worse right now in our present day, or have there been other periods during human history that have been just as bad or even worse?
There were times when things were worse than this, take for example during the WW II. Just a little knowledge of history is enough, one does not need to go to Bible or any other scripture.
Then it depends on the age, belief and disposition of the person. I am positive at the age of 80, you sound so pessimistic at the age of 54! Most young people will say that they are enjoying their time, while the old people will go on grumbling.
Hello all. As we all know, our political and social conditions in the United States have gotten really dire recently... and especially within the last 6 years after a certain person was electorally college voted into the presidency in 2016. Also, there is strife, problems, and unrest in other parts of the world, including a savage war launched against Ukraine. Therefore, I know that a lot of people have religious beliefs that we are living during the end times, also called the time of the end, and also called the last days, so I wanted to ask the forum: As bad as things are now, are things worse right now in our present day, or have there been other periods during human history that have been just as bad or even worse?
Also, I know that in the first century, Jesus' disciples at one time thought that the end (i.e. Jesus' second coming) may have been coming at that time, according to Acts 1:6:
Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”
Plus, there was thiis discussion between Jesus and his disciples at Matthew 24:3-31:
3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”
4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.
9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.
22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.
26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
29 “Immediately after the distress of those days
“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
(emphasis is mine)
And I know that some believe that this is referring to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE, while some believe that this involves a dual prophecy about both Jerusalem and the end of the world, however, I am only looking for the religious point of view of those who believe that Matthew 24 alsoi ncludes the end of the world. However, of course, any historical and/or non-religious viewpoint is welcomed.
Additionally, I've done a bit of research about the political and social conditions that existed during the Roman Empire in the first century when Jesus' disciples asked the question at Acts 1:6. And the conditions weren't pretty. Also, I could see how those who had 'end time' religious beliefs during that time might have thought or wanted the end to be nigh.
But before I post some quotes from some links about how bad life was during first century Rome, I wanted to also say that I posted this thread in a non-debate forum because I only wanted people to share their point of view, and to agree or disagree with others' point of view. However, I really didn't want anyone to go after each other. Therefore, please share with me what you know about how good or how bad political and social conditions were throughout history.
Hi,I must confess I’ve asked this question many times.
“Are we experiencing the worst menace ever?”
while previous eras experienced turmoil, “the last days” would be extraordinarily savage. As 2 Timothy 3:13puts it, “wicked men and impostors will advance from bad to worse.”
People have always fought and been ill,that’s not a surprise.
I’m not an analyst but yet there is something I’d like to share.
Now my country is at war .I’ve never experienced war before.
But I know what elderly Ukrainians say:” we lived during World War 2 it was rather a drastic experience,people were killed and tortured,they had no food.
. But this war is more bloody and destructive of any other age”
Kiev region…. let alone Mariupol…..
And this is just the beginning…
We will all face hunger…
Currently my son and I are living abroad.we see the prices are rising all the time I can’t afford buying things I used to buy before.
As we see humanity is far from a peaceful world. In terms of sheer magnitude we are passing through an era called the last days.
There were times when things were worse than this, take for example during the WW II. Just a little knowledge of history is enough, one does not need to go to Bible or any other scripture.
But nPeace has made the claim that the 'time of the end' started in the year 1914, therefore, that would align with the claim that he or she is making.
With your avatar, I never would have known that you were 80. But I perhaps sound pessimistic because I will admit that I was really disturbed by the recent mass shooting of children in their school (which was at one time viewed as being a safe place for children) in Uvalde, TX, along with the more recent weekly gun massacres, and now the daily mass shootings that we have in the United States. However, what is worse is the cold-hearted, out-of-touch, wealthy elite who have bought off greedy and corrupt politicians to control policies that continue to allow them to profit and become wealthier at the expense of not only the lives of our children and other people, but also the economic welfare of common people. And then top that off with how the wealthy have maneuvered and funded poisonous, unbridled right-wing propaganda (while left-wing politicians stupidly and sheepishly sit back and allow massive right-wing brainwashing to occur), which ends up with the result of rather than the people in the United States coming together to do something about the wealthy elite always getting their way, there are significant parts of the population who primarily blame and hate the politicians and the population of the left, and have the false belief that their politicians on the right do no wrong and that they would be more effective in power. (Although, I have observed that a lot of the support of right-wing politicians is because of the supporters' own racism and nationalism.) So, yes, I am pessimistic and disturbed by the moral and the political conditions in the United States.
JDMS said: ↑
I would say things are generally better now than they were on average in the past. War related deaths are at an all time low, the average person's quality of living is higher, most countries are seeing a forward progression in civil rights, with some exceptions of course....
I think that the problems we have today are still very important to work on, but I am still glad I live in this day and age as opposed to 50, 100, 1000 years ago. I'm proud of the progress we've made and I hope progress continues in a positive direction, and that we can address the remaining issues in a timely matter (considering some are more time sensitive than others, lol).
I would like to modify my reply and say that I think that conditions 50 years ago were a lot better than they are now. However, I do agree with you about how living today is better than living 100 or 1000 years ago.
Hi,I must confess I’ve asked this question many times.
“Are we experiencing the worst menace ever?”
while previous eras experienced turmoil, “the last days” would be extraordinarily savage. As 2 Timothy 3:13puts it, “wicked men and impostors will advance from bad to worse.”
People have always fought and been ill,that’s not a surprise.
I’m not an analyst but yet there is something I’d like to share.
Now my country is at war .I’ve never experienced war before.
But I know what elderly Ukrainians say:” we lived during World War 2 it was rather a drastic experience,people were killed and tortured,they had no food.
. But this war is more bloody and destructive of any other age”
Kiev region…. let alone Mariupol…..
And this is just the beginning…
We will all face hunger…
Currently my son and I are living abroad.we see the prices are rising all the time I can’t afford buying things I used to buy before.
As we see humanity is far from a peaceful world. In terms of sheer magnitude we are passing through an era called the last days.
Thank you for your reply, natasha levchenko, and I am really sorry about what you and other Ukrainians are going through right now, however, I think that a key point that you made was when you said, "I’ve never experienced war before." Because anyone who was previously living under peaceful conditions, would be in a state of shock if they lived in a war-torn country.
Also, it would be one thing if the elderly Ukrainians who lived during World War 2 would say what you said about the current war, but it's another thing when someone who has never experience war before is saying this.
Plus, I know that the following two links may not be reassuring or comforting, but they are something to consider in regard to what we are talking about in this thread;
