Homosexuality and religious.

[Spirit of Light]

yeah i know what you are saying. They want full support and approval or they accuse you of being against them...and homophobic. Thats how they think. Its really just a bullying tactic to try and dim your resolve and to get you to change your view.

Never change your view! Your standards in life are yours to live, no one elses. They have no right to demand compliance from any of us.

Very true words

 

[Bree]

The agenda of living their life with the partner of their choice, making a life, raising a family and growing old together.

O, the horror.

they are free to do that

Why am I (or anyone else) not free to hold to a different opinion?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Clearly not, as you didn't know about the homophobia, sexual discrimination or barbaric punishments

No. You merely believe them to be true.

So you disagree with god when he said that you must accept and obey whatever the messengers say, without question or doubt, even if it makes no sense to you?



I already have. He was almost certainly making it up, based partly on earlier and existing beliefs and customs. Whether he was delusional or dishonest is open to question, but they are both far more likely explanations than he was an actual messenger of an actual god.

Do you accept that there is a possibility that he was delusional or dishonest?

What is miraculous about knowing the names of famous people?

You have your beliefs and I have mine. So you go your way and I’ll go mine.

 

[loverofhumanity]

So you admit that you are merely assuming that these men were messengers of god, based on what those men said. There is always the possibility that they were either delusional or dishonest - even if you don't believe they were.

Are you claiming that anyone who willingly suffers persecution for their cause is necessarily a messenger of god?

So what? How does that show they were talking to god?

So you are saying that anyone promoting a new ideology who is persecuted is a messenger of god?

No they didn't!

Hitler, Stalin, Mao, etc all managed pretty well.

Are you seriously claiming that Christianity and Islam became global without the use of force and without any financial backing?
Not a fan of history then?

More claims without evidence.

And meaningless platitudes.

This is the thing. God can do literally anything. If he wanted to appear to everyone in the world, without using human intermediaries, in a way that we all found convincing and appealing - he could. In fact, he would. The very idea that god deliberately makes it so that the majority of people will reject him is utterly incoherent.

It’s ok. Let all your frustrations out. It doesn’t bother me at all. I’m so happy to be a Baha’i that nothing can really bother me. I’ve found the truth even though I’m not worthy to have found Baha’u’llah.

 

[loverofhumanity]

But to those of us that question the religion, it is not out of ignorance. We have issues with some of the claims and teachings of the Baha'i Faith. Like with this issue. God had a chance to update his view on homosexuality, but no. He still hates it. God thinks it is an abomination.

At least with the Baha'i Faith they are taught to be loving and tolerant of the people. But ideally, God wants them to change and seek help to get over their condition. And this is "God's" word for the next 1000 years. What happens to those that don't get "healed" of their condition? Can they openly live a gay lifestyle? Or is it back to the closet?

The beautiful thing I find about God is that He lets us make our own choices. He hates wars but He allowed us to have two world wars and many civil wars now. He dislikes many things and says so but never forces us to obey Him. He only wants us to follow His Ways if we voluntarily want to out of love for Him.

I was always opposed to the act of homosexuality both as a catholic and as an atheist so on becoming a Baha’i I was happy to see God disliked it too. But I was very happy that we are told to love and welcome homosexuals as equal fellow humans. That really made me love this Faith more because it says to love those who even practise what God dislikes. God is really like a loving Father.

 

[Trailblazer]

Why am I (or anyone else) not free to hold to a different opinion?

That is the hundred-dollar question, and if we hold a different opinion we are labeled homophobes.
Enough is enough.

 

[Trailblazer]

I’ve found the truth even though I’m not worthy to have found Baha’u’llah.

You are worthy as otherwise you would never have embraced the Cause of Baha'u'llah.

"Be thankful to God for having enabled you to recognize His Cause. Whoever has received this blessing must, prior to his acceptance, have performed some deed which, though he himself was unaware of its character, was ordained by God as a means whereby he has been guided to find and embrace the Truth. As to those who have remained deprived of such a blessing, their acts alone have hindered them from recognizing the truth of this Revelation. We cherish the hope that you, who have attained to this light, will exert your utmost to banish the darkness of superstition and unbelief from the midst of the people. May your deeds proclaim your faith and enable you to lead the erring into the paths of eternal salvation."

(Baha'u'llah, quoted in Shoghi Effendi, The Dawn-Breakers, p. 586)
The Dawn-Breakers: Nabíl’s Narrative of the Early Days of the Bahá’í Revelation, p. 586

 

[Dawnofhope]

My apologies, I could not find one with the UHoJ acknowledging indoctrination as valid. I seem to have misremembered.

That's fine.

But the Universal House of Justice if it opposes indoctrination only does so for marketing reasons.
Consider this Baha'i website;
Does Religion Help or Hamper Children Spiritually?

It is a website run by Baha'is but not an official Baha'i website. So what is presented is neither endorsed or discouraged by the House of Justice.

It starts out referencing the recovering Catholic/Jew, one of whom claims to be recovering from, "“A lifetime of indoctrination, which made it hard for me to think for myself.”

It then references the 19th century philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer who summarized the basic concept of indoctrination;

'If, in early childhood, certain fundamental views and doctrines are paraded with unusual solemnity, and an air of the greatest earnestness never before visible in anything else; if, at the same time, the possibility of a doubt about them be completely passed over, or touched upon only to indicate that doubt is the first step to eternal perdition, the resulting impression will be so deep that, as a rule, that is, in almost every case, doubt about them will be almost as impossible as doubt about one’s own existence. – On Religion: A Dialogue'

It then begins to explain that for Baha'is it is not to do indoctrination, but rather, "While the children are yet in their infancy feed them from the breast of heavenly grace" and goes on to explain that this includes, "Schools must first train the children in the principles of religion, so that the Promise and the Threat recorded in the Books of God may prevent them from the things forbidden and adorn them with the mantle of the commandments"

The irony of saying we should do this but not indoctrinate them seems to be lost on the author of the article.

I understand your point and agree somewhat.

Teaching children that the principles of religion are true and that the promise and threat of God are true sure sounds like indoctrination to me.

I understand why you would see it that way.

Thanks for getting back to me.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I'm not talking about political parties. I've known some Baha'is that were very liberal in their beliefs about the Baha'i Faith. And some that were very conservative. One would tend to be easy going about obeying rules, and the other would be much stricter in trying to obey all the rules.

I agree there is a broad spectrum of belief among Baha'is. How that will play out in the future is anyone's guess.

 

[ppp]

they are free to do that

Why am I (or anyone else) not free to hold to a different opinion?

No one is stopping you from having the opinion that some minority group should not have the agenda of living their life with the partner of their choice, making a life, raising a family and growing old together.

 

[ppp]

That is the hundred-dollar question, and if we hold a different opinion we are labeled homophobes.
Enough is enough.

Only because that opinion is homophobic.
People who hold a similar opinion on interracial marriage are racists.

Not a particularly hot take.

 

[Dawnofhope]

That seems somewhat at odds with Bahaullah's claim of a coming Bahai world government.

Here's another quote from "Abdu'l-Baha for you to ponder and dissect.

Politics are occupied with the material things of life. Religious teachers should not invade the realm of politics; they should concern themselves with the spiritual education of the people; they should ever give good counsel to men, trying to serve God and human kind; they should endeavor to awaken spiritual aspiration, and strive to enlarge the understanding and knowledge of humanity, to improve morals, and to increase the love for justice. – Paris Talks, p. 158.

Religion and Politics: A Baha'i Perspective

However the Baha'i writings do envisage a future Baha'i commonwealth where Baha'i institutions would become involved in government.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I'm confused now. You posted some Bahai quotes to support your position. Now you seem to be saying that they are not relevant to Bahaism.

Of course they are relevant.

"Doctrine" is simply the collection of beliefs held and followed by a group. If a religious leader revered as "the perfect Exemplar of His Faith" with "superhuman knowledge and perfection", and called "the Mystery of God" by Bahaullah, makes a statement of how the Bahais should behave, it is part of Bahai doctrine.

Seeing the good in others and as a general rule of thumb overlooking their faults is common sense and an approach to life applied by many whether theistic or not. It is not part of 'Baha'i doctrine.'

No, but he is one of the three central figures of Bahaism, along with Bab and Bahaullah.

Of course.

So if you know someone who is a community leader, works tirelessly for charities, volunteers in hospitals - but also know that he rapes children once in a while, you wouldn't tell the police?

You're rehashing stuff I've already responded to and explained.

Not a good idea when it comes to laws and rules.

The admonition to see the good in others is neither a law or rule. Baha'is don't insist on viewing religious writings literally.

 

[Spirit of Light]

That is the hundred-dollar question, and if we hold a different opinion we are labeled homophobes.
Enough is enough.

Ohhh that sound like a riot can i join in

 

[YoursTrue]

Yes, he knows they are wrong and that is why he does his evil deeds in the dark behind closed doors and works hard to cover his tracks.

So then when someone does things secretly, like stealing and adultery, would you say they also know these actions are wrong (or evil)?

 

[Sheldon]

Religious teachers should not invade the realm of politics;

where Baha'i institutions would become involved in government.

Well that's clear as mud.

 

[YoursTrue]

yeah i know what you are saying. They want full support and approval or they accuse you of being against them...and homophobic. Thats how they think. Its really just a bullying tactic to try and dim your resolve and to get you to change your view.

Never change your view! Your standards in life are yours to live, no one elses. They have no right to demand compliance from any of us.

So then are you saying you make your own rules?

 

[CG Didymus]

The beautiful thing I find about God is that He lets us make our own choices. He hates wars but He allowed us to have two world wars and many civil wars now. He dislikes many things and says so but never forces us to obey Him. He only wants us to follow His Ways if we voluntarily want to out of love for Him.

And here I thought Krishna told Arjuna to go ahead and fight in a war. And in the Bible God led his people into battle. And even in the Baha'i Faith, if one nation goes against the rulings of the world tribunal, all the other nations are to rise up and put down the rebellion. That sounds like forcing that nation into compliance to me.

And when it comes to homosexuality, I think he told his people in the Bible and Quran to kill homosexuals. So, how is it that you don't think God never tried to force people to obey? Or... is it still considered "voluntary" if someone stops their homosexual behavior because there is a law that condemns them to death if they don't.

So, do the Baha'is believe that homosexuality is evil? It seems like they do. Are there sanctions put on gay Baha'is when they get too openly gay? Or homosexuality isn't evil and it's okay for those Baha'is to openly live a gay lifestyle?

 

[YoursTrue]

Well that's clear as mud.

(That doesn't matter.)

 

[Sheldon]

That is the hundred-dollar question, and if we hold a different opinion we are labeled homophobes.
Enough is enough.

The "different" opinion IS homophobic, you can't decry homosexuality and claim you're not homophobic, that's absurd. You may want to believe you're not being homophobic, but you certainly are, as your religion clearly is.