Homosexuality and religious.

[TransmutingSoul]

But that independent investigation, unfortunately, stopped when they signed their declaration card. From that point on they have to believe it all or they are not true believers.

That is very untrue statement CG.

In fact the investigation really just begins when one signs that card. Enough was known when signing that card, to have Faith, that what we will seek, we will find.

Regards Tony

 

[Aupmanyav]

Yes, and supposedly not them either. You know, the 'independent" investigation of truth.

I note your point, a person can have a view of morality which is different from that of the society or from what is proposed by religions.

 

[Sheldon]

Baha'is who really believe in Baha'u'llah do not question His Laws,

Like Nazis and Hitler really. Why people think following bigoted prejudiced notions unquestioningly is a good or moral thing is baffling, but it's not, our evolved ability to reason is essential to our morals. It's an odd fact perhaps, but many authors on the topic have noted that those who risked their lives to help protect Jewish people from Nazis persecution, nearly all had a particular trait in common. They had been raised to think for themselves, it didn't matter whether they were deeply religious or atheists.

Blindly following rules isn't moral, it's an extremely dangerous trait in and of itself to follow rules unquestioningly. It seems history really is doomed to repeat itself until people learn this lesson.

 

[Sheldon]

The Baha'i Faith does not target a class of people, it has laws regarding specific sexual behaviors,

Sexual behaviours between a small specific group of people.

 

[Truthseeker]

Science does not deal with morality, that is within the purview of religion.

I knew you would answer that well.

 

[Sheldon]

"They", the comments that were being discussed.

Per eveolution when genes aren't passed on, they leave the gene pool. Do you deny that?

What objective evidence can you demonstrate that being gay is genetic.

When you're done wiping that egg off your face, gay people can and do reproduce having heterosexual sex. They're are also born overwhelmingly to straight parents.

Dear oh dear...

 

[Truthseeker]

That is actually true of many homosexuals, why wouldn't it be? People are people and they love who they love. Love is not confined to heterosexuals. I know a man who on another forum was with his male partner for 50 years and he was devastated when he got ill and passed on. He never really recovered from his loss, he was never the same after that.

I might as well continue my story before I sign off. JD was the gay man I spoke of above and he was a hard atheist. On that forum there was also a very liberal Christian called Ish and he was 'anything goes' regarding sex and had no problem with JD's sexual proclivities or anyone else's. In fact, those two were the best of friends.

BUE is the forum.

 

[Jedster]

You may not consider yourself to be homophobic, but if you refuse to condemn or even criticise the homophobia in your religious teaching or the actions of other believers, and claim that said teaching is perfect - then it is just as bad.
It really isn't that difficult to understand.

I have known many Bahais over many years and have always enjoyed our interactions.
Admittedly, I have never discussed homosexuality with them (or anyone else) and find it really hard to believe they harbour the prejudice that has been flushed out on this forum.

When I was a practicing Jew, I was really against circumcision but would support it because "God said so" (Genesis 17:10).

I think many Bahais are in the same boat as are many people of religions who (almost) deify their writings.

(You have shown much patience in this thread)

 

[joelr]

So this is interesting, it's the educated way that Muslims are telling their children they should not be gay. It's not "Allah says you cannot", it's more philosophical. Kind of disturbing because I think it's going to work on a lot of young Muslims. To argue against it takes some knowledge beyond what a child knows. This Firas guy is very smart and versed in philosophy and has some good arguments on God but he also debunks himself I believe. That is another video......

 

[Sheldon]

"But homosexuality apart from sexual satisfaction, what purpose does it serve?"

A question you cannot give a straight answer

I did answer it, you even quoted my answer.

 

[Sheldon]

There is no prohibition against "being gay" in the Baha'i Faith. There is only a prohibition against gay sex.

Yes, a bigoted prejudice they are trying to insist others conform to. Religions have always done this, tried to pretend their own ignorance and prejudices were somehow lent some gravitas or credence, simply by claiming they're derived from an unevidenced imaginary deity. If that deity doesn't like it then it can stop it, or punish people after they die, I'm hardly going to care since its woo woo superstition anyway. Which I suspect is what's causing most of the shrill bleating.

The adherents don't have to have gay sex, or any sex if that's what they want, just leave others alone to enjoy their sex lives.

 

[Sheldon]

Why not just say that having gay sex is just a part of who people really are?

Most people would be bright enough to join the dots themselves.

 

[Sheldon]

It is all about the sex.

In the end puritanical religious homophobes always come across as bitter and jealous. I could care less what they think being gay is about, but what's hilarious is how unhealthily preoccupied they are by the pleasures others derive from sex.

Pretty funny really, but sadly also very pernicious.

 

[Sheldon]

Because God says so, and that is the only reason we need.

A pretty weak and dangerous defense of homophobic bigotry.

 

[Sheldon]

Don't like religion, then don't do it.

Another spectacularly stupid straw man, since I'm an atheist, and religious superstition is a choice, whereas being gay isn't.

 

[samtonga43]

We have no objective evidence that Jesus said any of the things assigned him, even if we did it wouldn't objectively evidence the claims of course.

You may be taking "Jesus is the voice" literally.

 

[Sheldon]

Why not say its our way of showing we love each

Missed the point again, or do you think they re mutually exclusive.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I'm sorry maybe I've misunderstood. Humans pass laws, those laws can reflect and practice homophobic prejudices, as well as many others of course.

That is correct. I'm just stating the obvious that it is those who create and follow laws who bear responsibility. Laws can not be inherently prejudicial or just. Laws are not humans, unlike those who write and follow the laws.

Laws are necessary to maintain harmony and wellbeing within communities. There are laws that fulfil this function well, others that undermine well being.

 

[Vinayaka]

The word I keep coming back to in my mind is "shame". Shoghi Effendi reports that Baha'u'llah spoke against homosexuality as shameful. This shame, imo, is amplified by requiring homosexuals to remain in hiding.

Regarding whether a Baha'i knows the rules: is there a standardized process for conversion into Baha'i? Is a new person expected to read the law in advance of enrollment?

Is it another one of those things that Abrahamic religions do? That is make up laws that forbid things. I looked up what Buddhism teaches about homosexuality.

In Buddhism, the third of the Five Precepts states that one is to refrain from sexual misconduct. Among the many interpretations of what constitutes “sexual misconduct” are: sex outside of marriage (a relatively modern idea), sex with another person without the consent of your life partner, or the historically prevalent view that it was limited to describe rape, incest, and bestiality.

No Buddhist school prior to the European Imperialism that began largely around the 17th Century had ever described homosexuality as “sexual misconduct”. Traditionally, however, monks are expected to be celibate and restrain themselves from all sexual activity.

Buddhist schools condemning homosexuality for laypersons is a recent development and there is no scriptural basis upon which it is to be condemned. The closest would be a few Buddhists who equated homosexuality to disability or being a transvestite, but there was no condemnation in any sense (see also ). Buddhist leaders throughout Asia accepted or even sanctified homosexuality.
​

In Hinduism there may be a few passages from some scriptures that describe it as forbidden, but most people would ignore them. There are many scriptures, and many contradictions from one to another. That said, there have been some homophobic modern gurus.

 

[Dawnofhope]

The deity people imagine to be real can and often does reflect all manner of their own prejudices.

The values and practices of atheist societies can also reflect all manner of prejudices.