Samson: For Torath Mosheh Jews Only

[Ehav4Ever]

I want to ask: How do you know this/where do you get this information from? But that is another question that has popped up in my mind in this conversation that I don't want to go off into a tangent on and will try to save for another thread... Unless you can give me the short version.

Places in the Hebrew Tanakh that talk about the future of the Jewish people. Also, from Torath Mosheh Oral Torah sources.

Whew! So, so different from what Christianity teaches.

Yep.

 

[David Davidovich]

During the time that Shimshon lived there was a lot less densely populated areas like there are now in Israel. So, the population of wildlife was more extensive than it is now.

In terms of catching foxes, especially 300. You have to remember that as Harel13 mentioned that Shimshon led Israel for 20 years. The text doesn't say how long it took him do most of the actions attributed to him. There is a method of catching animals like foxes that I have seen described in commentaries of the Mishnah for Shabbat.

Also, there are many traditional socieites even to this day that are able to catch and manage large amounts of animals.

Drone footage follows 10,000 ducks “cleaning” rice paddies in Thailand

Hmmm. (meaning wondering and pondering) Maybe Samson used Fox snacks. lol Sorry, but I couldn't resist. But thanks for the answer and thanks for the video.

 

[David Davidovich]

According to one description I found in a text called Da'ath Miqra Shimshon harnessed the foxes together, similar to how one does with snow dogs for dog sleds or horses that are pulling carriages, and the fire was being dragged behind them. It defines there to be 150 torches, one torch for every harness. Each one being connected between the tails. Doesn't mean it was right next to them though.

I see.

The below video may give an idea of the concept. You want to skip to 4:29

I wished that I had looked and seen where you said skip to 4:29 before I clicked on the video.

 

[David Davidovich]

@David Davidovich Da'at Mikra is a modern, Orthodox Jewish commentary on all of Tanach. Only the commentaries on Job and Proverbs have so far been translated into English, along with the Da'at Mikra Bible Atlas.

Okay, thanks.

 

[David Davidovich]

I wouldn't use the word, inspired. You could make an arguement that all Torah based information written by a Torah based Jews is inspired by Hashem. That doesn't mean that Hashem gave instructions on how to write or transmit it. That is up to the Torah based Jew. For example, the videos I do on youtube can be considered "inspired" by Hashem since Hashem gave the Torah and I am only talking about what is in the Torah and what I can confirm from a trustworthy based source. YET, Hashem did not provide me with what to put in the video or how to present it.

The Nevi'im were experts in the Torah. They were 100% dedicated to Hashem and keeping the Torah that Hashem gave. Thus, they wrote what they wrote from that background. Some of them had experiences with Hashem that dictated that they write "something" - what they wrote and how they wrote it was up to them.

So, do Torath Mosheh Jews consider the Tanakh to be the word of God? And if yes, what would be your definition of "the word of God"? And the reason why I ask is because in the Christian Greek text at 2 Timothy 3:16, the Greek, as it is literally translated into English says about both the Hebrew and the Christian Greek text that, "every Writing is God-breathed" meaning that they are inspired by God, and therefore, are the infallible and inerrant word of God. (See Young's Literal Translation.)

With the Torah this was not the case. Hashem told Mosheh ben-Amram:

1. When to write.
2. What to write. (content)
3. How to write it. (spelling, spacing, structure, order, etc.)
4. How to instruct Israelis to copy what had been written.

Well, I'm going to have to start a thread on that one day because I have questions about the criticism and the said discrepancy between Genesis chapter 1 and 2. But we can do that later.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Hmmm. (meaning wondering and pondering) Maybe Samson used Fox snacks. lol Sorry, but I couldn't resist. But thanks for the answer and thanks for the video.

Maybe. Maybe he raised them. Fox hearding.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

So, do Torath Mosheh Jews consider the Tanakh to be the word of God? And if yes, what would be your definition of "the word of God"?

It would be better to use a different statement. For example, I already gave the description of the Torah as:

Hashem told Mosheh ben-Amram:

1. When to write.
2. What to write. (content)
3. How to write it. (spelling, spacing, structure, order, etc.)
4. How to instruct Israelis to copy what had been written.

With the rest of the Tanakh, what we can say is Torah based. It was written by Torah based Israeli/Jewish Nevi'im who were inspired by their contact with Hashem or their contact with Torah based concepts. It was written for a Torath Mosheh Jewish audiance who understand Hebrew/Aramaic.

If one wants to say that all of this makes it the "word of Hashem" one can say that as a "general" term. Yet, we Torath Mosheh Jews make a point to know how and why each text was written and under what conditions. I.e. the general term is not good enough when a Torah based Jew is doing a deep into a text and what it means.

And the reason why I ask is because in the Christian Greek text at 2 Timothy 3:16, the Greek, as it is literally translated into English says about both the Hebrew and the Christian Greek text that, "every Writing is God-breathed" meaning that they are inspired by God, and therefore, are the infallible and inerrant word of God.

I would personally stay far away from something as general as what the NT authors were stating. What they meant is probably a mystery to most of the people who beleive in that text.

Well, I'm going to have to start a thread on that one day because I have questions about the criticism and the said discrepancy between Genesis chapter 1 and 2. But we can do that later.

No problem. It is a very simple thing, in Hebrew but I agree it can down a deep path that requires seperation.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Okay, I'll just come right out and ask the question: Isn't that a bit violent?

Not at all. When animals attack, even each other, there is no such thing as being to violent.

When you get a chance, look at youtube for "lion break young lions spine" or "tiger attack man on the elephant." You will see that when predators attack they don't have those kind of sensibilities. Further, there is a mitzvah in the Torah for people to protect their lives. We Jews have a concept that we are supposed to live in the mitzvot and not die in them.

Couldn't Samson have just punched the lion and knocked it out with his super strength? Also, I don't know what Hebrew word or concept that Jews use for 'spirit of the lord' but could 'it' have guided Samson with a more humane way of stopping this wild animal?

In terms of punching a lion and knocking it out. The Torath Mosheh concept is that Shimshon was not the image you may be used to from the Christian concept. See my coment in the next response below.

I have listed to a few accounts of people who have been charged or attacked by bears, mountain lions, etc. and none of them see to have a problem with protecting themelves, which often requires killing the attacking, with whatever mean necessary. This is in a time when there is the possibilities of guns and even wildlife protection services.

The following are examples of people who had to kill animals that were attacking them. None of them did so in a nice way.

Also, I don't know what Hebrew word or concept that Jews use for 'spirit of the lord' but could 'it' have guided Samson with a more humane way of stopping this wild animal?

In Hebrew it is called (רוח ה). It is like saying that Shimshon received the know how, endurance, and ability that was humanly available to him personally to overcome the situation he was in.

All of this was already built into the system of reality for Shimshon at the appropriate times. I would not call it super strength in the super hero because there are normal people all the time who display almost superhuman ability to overcome a challenge or do something the average person can't.do. In a way no different than I would call a surge of adrelanine with the knowledge how to properly use it something beyond the possibility of humanity.

This discription of how James Shaw handled the Waffle House attacker is an example of what we mean but amplified just a bit more.

Look it up on YouTube "Guy HANDLES Naked Attacker Like BOSS… Then this to happens"

The following may also help.

 

[David Davidovich]

Not at all. When animals attack, even each other, there is no such thing as being to violent.

When you get a chance, look at youtube for "lion break young lions spine" or "tiger attack man on the elephant." You will see that when predators attack they don't have those kind of sensibilities. Further, there is a mitzvah in the Torah for people to protect their lives. We Jews have a concept that we are supposed to live in the mitzvot and not die in them.

Well, as I mentioned to @Harel13 in post #19 in this thread, when you get a chance, look at the following youtube video link starting at the 2:32 mark, which skips the introduction. (Or you can watch the entire video.) And even though it uses the word "Christianity" in the title, the narrator of the video still makes the point that his video is still pertaining to any religion or faith group that believes that there's a God who created the animal kingdom.

Also, in the Christian version of this thread, also in post #19, I would like to repeat to you what I said to Brian2:

Well, I'm just wondering why God created violent, wild animals that attack in the first place. Because if God had not created them, then we wouldn't even have had this violent and disturbing account in the Bible.

In terms of punching a lion and knocking it out. The Torath Mosheh concept is that Shimshon was not the image you may be used to from the Christian concept. See my coment in the next response below.

I have listed to a few accounts of people who have been charged or attacked by bears, mountain lions, etc. and none of them see to have a problem with protecting themelves, which often requires killing the attacking, with whatever mean necessary. This is in a time when there is the possibilities of guns and even wildlife protection services.

The following are examples of people who had to kill animals that were attacking them. None of them did so in a nice way.

See my comment in the red to Brian2 above.

In Hebrew it is called (רוח ה). It is like saying that Shimshon received the know how, endurance, and ability that was humanly available to him personally to overcome the situation he was in.

So, are you saying that this wasn't the same 'gumption' that gave, let's say Elijah and/or Elisha the ability to raise people from the dead?

All of this was already built into the system of reality for Shimshon at the appropriate times. I would not call it super strength in the super hero because there are normal people all the time who display almost superhuman ability to overcome a challenge or do something the average person can't.do. In a way no different than I would call a surge of adrelanine with the knowledge how to properly use it something beyond the possibility of humanity.

This discription of how James Shaw handled the Waffle House attacker is an example of what we mean but amplified just a bit more.

Look it up on YouTube "Guy HANDLES Naked Attacker Like BOSS… Then this to happens"

The following may also help.

I haven't taken the time to look at any of the videos yet because I wanted to go ahead and repsond to this post, therefore, you're saying that regular people like you and me and Harel 13 have the power inside of them to kill 1000 men with a donkey's jaw?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Well, as I mentioned to @Harel13 in post #19 in this thread, when you get a chance, look at the following youtube video link starting at the 2:32 mark, which skips the introduction. (Or you can watch the entire video.) And even though it uses the word "Christianity" in the title, the narrator of the video still makes the point that his video is still pertaining to any religion or faith group that believes that there's a God who created the animal kingdom.

If you remember, Torath Mosheh is not a religion nor does it present a "religious" outlook. For example, the guy in the video mentions the concepts of a "god" and "morality." If you remember I explained that both are concepts foreign to the Torah. Not once, in the Hebrew Torah, does the terms "god" or "morality" ever appear in relation to Hashem and mitzvoth. This point alone is foreign. Thus, saying that there is a Source of reality that established the rules of reality is not the same as saying a god. Two different concepts especially if a person doesn't see how and why the reality works the way it does.

Also, if he so concerned about animals why is he using a computer, have so much electronics, and plastics in the part of his home that shows up in the video. The production of all of that stuff causes animal and human suffering. Also, I am sure his home is built of former animal habitat. He doesn't look like he is living off the grid.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

you're saying that regular people like you and me and Harel 13 have the power inside of them to kill 1000 men with a donkey's jaw?

A lot of things are possible wih the right endurance, situational awareness, drive, skill, and time. There are people all throughout history who have faced almost impossible odds and overcome them. Again, the text never describes how he did it and how long it took. (days, weeks, months, years) (over a wide geographical area or in a small geogaphic area) Further, it never explains the skill of those the 1,000.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

So, are you saying that this wasn't the same 'gumption' that gave, let's say Elijah and/or Elisha the ability to raise people from the dead?

Not the same at all. Everyone's abilities and insight are different as well as what tools Hashem has given to do a particular thing.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

when you get a chance, look at the following youtube video link starting at the 2:32 mark, which skips the introduction. (Or you can watch the entire video.)

Further, his point that he mentions is very specific to Christianity. Why? Because he mentions Christianity in relation to why humanity suffers then connects it to animal suffering. Thus, the concept he speaking about only applicable to anything that is a) a self-defined religion, b) focuses on human suffering, and c) relates to a "god" which claims itself to be moral/based on the English word of morality. This is all foreign Torath Mosheh.

 

[David Davidovich]

David Davidovich said: ↑

Well, as I mentioned to @Harel13 in post #19 in this thread, when you get a chance, look at the following youtube video link starting at the 2:32 mark, which skips the introduction. (Or you can watch the entire video.) And even though it uses the word "Christianity" in the title, the narrator of the video still makes the point that his video is still pertaining to any religion or faith group that believes that there's a God who created the animal kingdom.

If you remember, Torath Mosheh is not a religion nor does it present a "religious" outlook. For example, the guy in the video mentions the concepts of a "god" and "morality." If you remember I explained that both are concepts foreign to the Torah. Not once, in the Hebrew Torah, does the terms "god" or "morality" ever appear in relation to Hashem and mitzvoth. This point alone is foreign. Thus, saying that there is a Source of reality that established the rules of reality is not the same as saying a god. Two different concepts especially if a person doesn't see how and why the reality works the way it does.

Well, I guess I must have forgot. So, what does the Hebrew text mean by the Hebrew transliterated words El, Eloah, and Elohim?

Also, if he so concerned about animals why is he using a computer, have so much electronics, and plastics in the part of his home that shows up in the video. The production of all of that stuff causes animal and human suffering. Also, I am sure his home is built of former animal habitat. He doesn't look like he is living off the grid.

I don't even know how to respond to a comment like that. Plus, it redirects that point made in the video rather than addressing it. Kind of like saying that what he's doing wrong is no better than what Hashem is doing wrong.

 

[David Davidovich]

A lot of things are possible wih the right endurance, situational awareness, drive, skill, and time. There are people all throughout history who have faced almost impossible odds and overcome them. Again, the text never describes how he did it and how long it took. (days, weeks, months, years) (over a wide geographical area or in a small geogaphic area) Further, it never explains the skill of those the 1,000.

So then why is Samson specifically pointed out in the book of Judges? Why aren't other Hebrew text heroes given these kinds of abilities? You seem to lean in the direction of making the events of the book of Samson sound so normal.

 

[David Davidovich]

Not the same at all. Everyone's abilities and insight are different as well as what tools Hashem has given to do a particular thing.

So, is this the same thing that is mentioned at Genesis 1:2, Isaiah 32:15, Psalm 104:30, Psalm 104:30, Judges 3:10, and Isaiah 63:10-11?

 

[David Davidovich]

Not at all. When animals attack, even each other, there is no such thing as being to violent.

Sorry, @Ehav4Ever, but that doesn't even make any sense. Also, what about verses such as Isaiah 11:6-9?

6 The wolf will live with the lamb,
and the leopard will lie down with the young goat,
the calf, the young lion, and the fattened calf together;
and a little child will lead them.
7 The cow and the bear will graze.
Their young ones will lie down together.
The lion will eat straw like the ox.
8 The nursing child will play near a cobra’s hole,
and the weaned child will put his hand on the viper’s den.
9 They will not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain;
for the earth will be full of the knowledge of Yahweh,
as the waters cover the sea.

 

[David Davidovich]

There are some sources that say that the donkey did not actually talk, using it's mouth, with words. There are some who say that it was Bilam's perception when he finally realized that he was doing the opposite of what he knew he should have been doing. Further, even if one donkey was created with the ability to either physically talk once in a very specific situation or for Bilam to get the impression that this is happening - think about what this says about Bilam, as a person. This donkey, that shouldn't know any better gets it, you Bilam a human being who thinks he is pulling a fast one on the Source of reality doesn't get it. Also, Bilam's response - as if having a conversation with a donkey about his treatment is normal in any way. i.e. he was not as smart as he wanted to think of himself.

A bit off topic, but would that mean that there was or may have been a literal snake talking to Eve? And if so, since Jews believe in the concept of yetzer hara, would that mean that Hashem created the snake to talk? Or is that saying something about Eve if she only thought that the snake talked, but it didn't?

Numerous sources say the earth did not stand still. I.e. you have to understand it in Hebrew along with the information Torah based Jews have passed on about what the statement means.

Thank goodness. That's good to hear.

 

[David Davidovich]

Further, his point that he mentions is very specific to Christianity. Why? Because he mentions Christianity in relation to why humanity suffers then connects it to animal suffering. Thus, the concept he speaking about only applicable to anything that is a) a self-defined religion, b) focuses on human suffering, and c) relates to a "god" which claims itself to be moral/based on the English word of morality. This is all foreign Torath Mosheh.

I'll get around to looking at those videos, however, what's wrong with the concept of the word "morality"?

conformity to the rules of right conduct; moral or virtuous conduct.

Because isn't that what the Torah laws and the mitzvahs are all about?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

I'll get around to looking at those videos, however, what's wrong with the concept of the word "morality"?

Because Hashem never made the claim the guy who did the video stated. That is 100% a Christian claim. Further, there is no such thing as "morality" when something created you, everything around you, and everything that keeps you sustained in all formats of your life. Thus, the term morality has no connection and I will go out on a limb and say the guy who made the video is more an expert in Christianity than he is in Torath Mosheh.

Because isn't that what the Torah laws and the mitzvahs are all about?

No. That is a western concept. The Torah can be summed us like so.

Hashem, the source of all reality and the source of the ability for something to be created, gave the Torah to the Israeli/Jewish people in order to guide Israelis/Jewish to benefit properly from the reality that Hashem created and to create a Torah based nation in the land of Israel. For the non-Jewish nations, he gave the 7 mitzvoth for the same purpose for them but not in the land of Israel.
​

This is mentioned numerous times in the Torah and also is what Dawith Hamelekh (King David) told his son before passed away. Further, a person can use their free-will to do the opposite and not have the beneifit that Hashem gave to address the reality Hashem created.