Jewish Messiah

[rosends]

Excuse me… if saving us from the consequences of our own sins has no basis in Jewish thought, then how do you understand / explain Daniel’s writing of the angel’s words recorded in Daniel 9:24 about the Moshiach, “in order to terminate the transgression, to finish off sin, to make atonement for error, to bring in everlasting righteousness…”?

Of course he would also be a king. Both roles would make Moshiach similar to Melchizedek, king-priest of Salem.

The consequences of our own sins are paid for by our own selves. The vision in Daniel explains how the destruction and exile (which are punishments on the people) were what was going to lead to atonement. This could then lead to an era in which the king messiah appears.

This messiah, though, will not be a priest. He won't be of the right tribe.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

The consequences of our own sins are paid for by our own selves. The vision in Daniel explains how the destruction and exile (which are punishments on the people) were what was going to lead to atonement. This could then lead to an era in which the king messiah appears.

This messiah, though, will not be a priest. He won't be of the right tribe.

I appreciate your response.
However, as God of all the Earth, I see Yahweh’s purpose as greater than just aiding the Jewish nation to a righteous condition; it’s for “all nations of the Earth” (Genesis 22:18) to receive blessings.

Goodnight.

 

[rosends]

For example?

There are varying understandings of the subject of that psalm. The person being victimized is understood by the early commentators as a representation of the entire nation of Israel who have been encircled and attacked by enemies many times. One also says that life in exile is being surrounded by enemies constantly.

 

[rosends]

I appreciate your response.
However, as God of all the Earth, I see Yahweh’s purpose as greater than just aiding the Jewish nation to a righteous condition; it’s for “all nations of the Earth” (Genesis 22:18) to receive blessings.

Goodnight.

There is nothing in what I said that precludes all the nations' having a role in the world and being blessed by God. That God gives a separate role to the Jewish nation, along with different expectations and consequences doesn't change anything for anyone else.

 

[Madmogwai]

The Torah, the foundational text of Judaism, does not provide a comprehensive and explicit description of the Jewish messiah. However, it does contain various prophecies and references that have been interpreted throughout Jewish history to allude to the coming of a future redeemer.

In Jewish tradition, the concept of the messiah (known as "Mashiach" in Hebrew) is viewed as a future figure who will bring about a period of ultimate peace, justice, and spiritual renewal for the Jewish people and the world. While specific details regarding the messiah's identity and actions differ among different Jewish streams and interpretations, several general characteristics and expectations have been extrapolated from the Torah and other Jewish texts.

The messiah is believed to be a descendant of King David, from the tribe of Judah. This lineage is derived from various biblical passages, including the book of Genesis (49:10), which speaks of a ruler coming forth from Judah. Additionally, the book of Isaiah (11:1-2) describes a future leader who will possess the spirit of God and will exhibit wisdom, understanding, and righteousness.

The Torah also contains descriptions of a time when all nations will recognize and acknowledge the sovereignty of the God of Israel. This concept is found in the book of Isaiah (2:2-4) and Micah (4:1-4), where it is envisioned that the messiah will bring about a universal recognition of God's authority and a cessation of warfare.

It is important to note that Jewish beliefs regarding the messiah are diverse, and interpretations may vary among different Jewish communities and individuals. Furthermore, the concept of the messiah has evolved over time, influenced by historical and cultural factors. Therefore, different interpretations and expectations regarding the messiah exist within Judaism.

In conclusion, while the Torah itself does not provide a detailed account of the Jewish messiah, it contains prophecies and references that have been interpreted by Jewish scholars and theologians throughout history. These interpretations form the basis for the diverse beliefs and expectations regarding the future redeemer within Jewish tradition.

 

[Ebionite]

The Torah, the foundational text of Judaism, does not provide a comprehensive and explicit description of the Jewish messiah. However, it does contain various prophecies and references that have been interpreted throughout Jewish history to allude to the coming of a future redeemer.

In Jewish tradition, the concept of the messiah (known as "Mashiach" in Hebrew) is viewed as a future figure who will bring about a period of ultimate peace, justice, and spiritual renewal for the Jewish people and the world. While specific details regarding the messiah's identity and actions differ among different Jewish streams and interpretations, several general characteristics and expectations have been extrapolated from the Torah and other Jewish texts.

The messiah is believed to be a descendant of King David, from the tribe of Judah. This lineage is derived from various biblical passages, including the book of Genesis (49:10), which speaks of a ruler coming forth from Judah. Additionally, the book of Isaiah (11:1-2) describes a future leader who will possess the spirit of God and will exhibit wisdom, understanding, and righteousness.

The Torah also contains descriptions of a time when all nations will recognize and acknowledge the sovereignty of the God of Israel. This concept is found in the book of Isaiah (2:2-4) and Micah (4:1-4), where it is envisioned that the messiah will bring about a universal recognition of God's authority and a cessation of warfare.

It is important to note that Jewish beliefs regarding the messiah are diverse, and interpretations may vary among different Jewish communities and individuals. Furthermore, the concept of the messiah has evolved over time, influenced by historical and cultural factors. Therefore, different interpretations and expectations regarding the messiah exist within Judaism.

In conclusion, while the Torah itself does not provide a detailed account of the Jewish messiah, it contains prophecies and references that have been interpreted by Jewish scholars and theologians throughout history. These interpretations form the basis for the diverse beliefs and expectations regarding the future redeemer within Jewish tradition.

These beliefs should be considered within the historical context of the seventy years before the destruction of the second temple, since that is the period in which Jewish Messianism was at its peak.

 

[Ebionite]

There are varying understandings of the subject of that psalm. The person being victimized is understood by the early commentators as a representation of the entire nation of Israel who have been encircled and attacked by enemies many times. One also says that life in exile is being surrounded by enemies constantly.

Persons are another layer of the illusion. Breaking that one down involves looking at how the law regards persons as being distinct from men and how those terms are conflated. It's a serious tangent from the discussion.

That aside, a more nuanced interpretation of Psalm 22 can be developed by considering the associations of the opening verse - abandonment and roaring. This leads to the nation of Israel as the lion, i.e. the reverse of how it was framed by the early commentators.

Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.
Psalms 22:21

El brought them out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn.
Surely [there is] no enchantment against Jacob, neither [is there] any divination against Israel: according to this time it shall be said of Jacob and of Israel, What hath El wrought!
Behold, the people shall rise up as a great lion, and lift up himself as a young lion: he shall not lie down until he eat [of] the prey, and drink the blood of the slain.
Numbers 23:22-24

This leads to the Star Prophecy...

I shall see him, but not now: I shall behold him, but not nigh: there shall come a Star out of Jacob, and a Sceptre shall rise out of Israel, and shall smite the corners of Moab, and destroy all the children of Sheth.
Numbers 24:17

 

[Ebionite]

It's a turn of phrase. He felt trapped.

How to you know what he felt?

 

[Ebionite]

The Hebrew word gad means fortune or luck (see Genesis 30:11). It was the name of one of Jacob's sons. It wasn't the name of God.

But as for you who forsake the LORD,
Who ignore My holy mountain,
Who set a table for Luck
And fill a mixing bowl for Destiny:

Jacob's sons weren't the focus of any religious practice. What's relevant is that that YHWH was forsaken for the deity whose name was GD.

 

[Rival]

How to you know what he felt?

Because he wrote about it....

 

[Ebionite]

Because he wrote about it....

The fact that you're so vague about it indicates that you're not confident that your position can stand up to scrutiny.

 

[Rival]

The fact that you're so vague about it indicates that you're not confident that your position can stand up to scrutiny.

Err, have you read the psalms? David constantly talks about his feelings, how he's sobbing at night, how he's afraid, how he's anxious.

My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?
Far from my help are the words of my groaning.
My God, I cry out by day, but You do not answer;
And by night, but I have no rest.
Yet You are holy,
You who are enthroned upon the praises of Israel.
In You our fathers trusted;
They trusted and You rescued them.
To You they cried out and they fled to safety;
In You they trusted and were not disappointed.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

What's happening is that you're trying to make the facts fit your conclusion, and it's not working because your conclusion is a non-sequitur.

For example?

For dogs have surrounded me; a band of evildoers has encompassed me, like a lion, my hands and feet.

 

[Madmogwai]

These beliefs should be considered within the historical context of the seventy years before the destruction of the second temple, since that is the period in which Jewish Messianism was at its peak.

The Torah was also only written between the 6th Century BCE and the 4th Century BCE.
Much from Oral traditions.

 

[Ebionite]

For dogs have surrounded me; a band of evildoers has encompassed me, like a lion, my hands and feet.

If you think you've got a point to make then you should express yourself more clearly.

 

[Ebionite]

Err, have you read the psalms? David constantly talks about his feelings, how he's sobbing at night, how he's afraid, how he's anxious.

My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?
Far from my help are the words of my groaning.
My God, I cry out by day, but You do not answer;
And by night, but I have no rest.
Yet You are holy,
You who are enthroned upon the praises of Israel.
In You our fathers trusted;
They trusted and You rescued them.
To You they cried out and they fled to safety;
In You they trusted and were not disappointed.

You're assuming that Psalm 22 is about David. David's sin is addressed in Psalm 51, this is something different.

But I [am] a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
Psalms 22:6

 

[IndigoChild5559]

If you think you've got a point to make then you should express yourself more clearly.

All of the imagery in this verse indicates being trapped, which was something I'm sure David often felt.
For dogs have surrounded me; a band of evildoers has encompassed me, like a lion, my hands and feet.

 

[Ebionite]

All of the imagery in this verse indicates being trapped, which was something I'm sure David often felt.
For dogs have surrounded me; a band of evildoers has encompassed me, like a lion, my hands and feet.

Why would David's freedom, as expressed in relation to his deity, be curtailed by the world?

I will freely sacrifice unto thee: I will praise thy name, O YHWH; for [it is] good.
Psalms 54:6

Accept, I beseech thee, the freewill offerings of my mouth, O YHWH, and teach me thy judgments.
Psalms 119:108

 

[Rival]

You're assuming that Psalm 22 is about David. David's sin is addressed in Psalm 51, this is something different.

But I [am] a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
Psalms 22:6

Yes this is about David's humility.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Why would David's freedom, as expressed in relation to his deity, be curtailed by the world?

I will freely sacrifice unto thee: I will praise thy name, O YHWH; for [it is] good.
Psalms 54:6

Accept, I beseech thee, the freewill offerings of my mouth, O YHWH, and teach me thy judgments.
Psalms 119:108

Are you not familiar with the fact that David was often at war, hiding from his enemies?