Night of Power (how long is it and what happened)?

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"Seeing" in the sense of "Recognizing". Not seeing with physical eye. In the same way, that, they could not see God, and they are blamed for it.

Them not agreeing believers are saints is a guarantee. Otherwise, they would not be disbelievers. The objection is more "if Mohammad (s) is true and his God exists then why not... this and that".

That doesn't make sense to be about believers being good or bad. And how would that change on the day of judgement per your interpretation?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Then how come the disbelievers (of that place and time) think overall (mostly) Angels are female?

Believing in physical angels as other kind of two-wing beings, is a mythical, fantasy belief from its basis. It has nothing to do with Faith of God. The disbelievers were wrong that Angels are only females.
The basis of such beliefs was their own superstitious ideas. It did not originate from the Revelations of God.

 

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Believing in physical angels as other kind of two-wing beings, is a mythical, fantasy belief from its basis. It has nothing to do with Faith of God. The disbelievers were wrong that Angels are only females.
The basis of such beliefs was their own superstitious ideas. It did not originate from the Revelations of God.

But they didn’t mean saints among humans is the point. So when they said why don’t angels come down to them they didn’t mean humans. And so when Quran says they will see them on day of judgement then it didn’t mean humans either. It’s talking about the same concept as they are.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Them not agreeing believers are saints is a guarantee.

Otherwise, they would not be disbelievers. The objection is more "if Mohammad (s) is true and his God exists then why not... this and that".

That doesn't make sense to be about believers being good or bad.

Those were the Ulama of Jews and Christians mostly, who considered themselves having the truth on their side, without considering the possibility that they could be wrong. They did not consider themselves in need of guidance this was their arrogance, as they considered themselves more knowledgeable than Muhammad, thus, in their mind, they knew Muhammad is a false prophet.

Thus they were making excuses and ridiculed Muhammad to reject Him, saying if Muhammad is a true Messenger of God, why He eats and walks like ordinary human beings. Why there no Angels with Him.

But consider, for example neither Jesus nor Moses were accompanied with Angels. So, how reasonable were they when they were saying, why no Angels are with Him?!

And how would that change on the day of judgement per your interpretation?

That is a very good question.

Let's read a bit farther from Surrah of Al-Furghan:


"Then the Messenger will say: "O my Lord! Truly my people took this Qur'an for just foolish nonsense." 25:30

This verse, is an allusion to the next Messenger after Muhammad. When Qaim comes to His people (Muslims), He says verse 25:30.

Now, lets look at next verse:

"And thus We have made for every Prophet an enemy, among the criminals. But sufficient is your Lord, (as) a Guide and a Helper." 25:31

This verse alone, is so worthy to ponder. It reveals mysteries of God!

Notice, it says, God is the one who makes enemies for every Prophet! But how, and why would God makes enemies for His Prophets?
Here I only focus on "How God makes enemies for Prophets, and why this verse is immediately after the verse about the Qaim"
Notice, this verse and the verse before it, are allusions, that, when Qaim comes to His people, who are Muslims, it is the Muslims who Allah made them enemies of the Qaim!! They are the ones who in reality are misguided!
This shouldn't be strange considering that the enemies of Jesus, were the Jews, the very same people who considered themselves as friends of Messiah!

But how does God prepares enemies for His Prophet and on this case the Qaim?
He does that, by misreading them, using Mutishabihat, and Parables in the Quran. Thus, this is the reason why the Quran has a part, which is Mutishabihat.

Now going back to the Term "Angels". By this term is mean, those firm Believers who Allah chooses as helpers of His Faith. But, God did not want to explicitly say the meaning of the Angel. This is just one example of how God uses Metaphors which is Mutishabihat. It causes many to be mislead. Through this misleading, they have false expectations from the Prophet. Thus, once the Prophet comes, they think He is a false prophet, and become His enemies.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

But they didn’t mean saints among humans is the point. So when they said why don’t angels come down to them they didn’t mean humans. And so when Quran says they will see them on day of judgement then it didn’t mean humans either. It’s talking about the same concept as they are.

It is very similar to when the disbelievers asked Muhammad, if you are a true Prophet, Resurrect our forefathers!

Muhammad, rejected their request, sayingz this event, only happens on the Resurrection Day!
This is because, Muhammad did not want to explicitly say to them, that, no Prophet ever, physically resurrected any dead person. It is because, the Quran uses the term "Resurrection" as an allusion or metaphor for the Rise of Qaim. But God did not want to explicitly reveal its meaning. As God wanted to test mankind,, with the Qaim.
The response of Muhammad with regards to Angels is the same. God did not want to say to them explicitly that, there are no such being as angels as people imagine. Because, in the Quran, God uses the Term Angel, as the companion of the Qaim. But He is using these terms to create a misguiding path, so, He prepares enemies for the Qaim.
Do you know why would God makes enemies for His Prophet?
Because, God wants to create both light and darkness in this world.
For example, Moses vs Pharaoh. Moses was light, and Pharaoh was the symbol of darkness. Hence, after them, some people followed light, and some people followed darkness. The same was the case with Abraham vs Namrood. Or Jesus vs Jewish Ulama. This is how God created predestination in this world.

 

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Right now, you saying disbelievers all acknowledge Bahais to be Angels? Otherwise, if not, then the contention stands. Since to you, it's them contending if good people are with Mohammad (s).

 

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There also many verses showing those who polytheists of that time and place worshiped would be Angels from one angle, but in reality, they were Jinn and Satanic ones at that.

One of the responses to why not Angels brought face to face is the following:

قُلْ لَوْ كَانَ فِي الْأَرْضِ مَلَائِكَةٌ يَمْشُونَ مُطْمَئِنِّينَ لَنَزَّلْنَا عَلَيْهِمْ مِنَ السَّمَاءِ مَلَكًا رَسُولًا | Say, ‘Had there been angels in the earth, walking around and residing [in it like humans do], We would have sent down to them an angel from the heaven as apostle.’ | Al-Israa : 95

This said in a rhetorical way that Angels are not here on earth.

وَجَعَلُوا الْمَلَائِكَةَ الَّذِينَ هُمْ عِبَادُ الرَّحْمَٰنِ إِنَاثًا ۚ أَشَهِدُوا خَلْقَهُمْ ۚ سَتُكْتَبُ شَهَادَتُهُمْ وَيُسْأَلُونَ | They have made the angels—who are servants of the All-beneficent—females. Were they witness to their creation? Their testimony will be written down and they shall be questioned. | Az-Zukhruf : 19

And these were regarding who they saw as daughters of God:

أَمِ اتَّخَذَ مِمَّا يَخْلُقُ بَنَاتٍ وَأَصْفَاكُمْ بِالْبَنِينَ | Did He adopt daughters from what He creates while He preferred you with sons? | Az-Zukhruf : 16

And said:

وَلَوْ نَشَاءُ لَجَعَلْنَا مِنْكُمْ مَلَائِكَةً فِي الْأَرْضِ يَخْلُفُونَ | Had We wished We would put Angels from you in the earth are rulers/representatives/successors| Az-Zukhruf : 60

This is said also in a way that implies Isa (a) is not an Angel, because it is preceded with:

إِنْ هُوَ إِلَّا عَبْدٌ أَنْعَمْنَا عَلَيْهِ وَجَعَلْنَاهُ مَثَلًا لِبَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ | He was only a servant whom We favored upon and made an exemplar for the Children of Israel. | Az-Zukhruf : 59

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Right now, you saying disbelievers all acknowledge Bahais to be Angels? Otherwise, if not, then the contention stands. Since to you, it's them contending if good people are with Mohammad (s).

"On the day when they behold the angels, on that day there will be no good tidings for the guilty; and they will cry: A forbidding ban" 25:22

1. Who are "they" who behold the Angels? By "they" is it meant All disbelievers? Some disbelievers? Or The believers? How do we know that?

2. When it says they Behold, does it mean, they recognize them as Angels? I mean, at the time of Muhammad, some believers were Angels. The disbelievers of that time, saw these Angels, but did not recognize them as angles. Could be the same now? How do we know?

 

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"On the day when they behold the angels, on that day there will be no good tidings for the guilty; and they will cry: A forbidding ban" 25:22

1. Who are "they" who behold the Angels? By "they" is it meant All disbelievers? Some disbelievers? Or The believers? How do we know that?

2. When it says they Behold, does it mean, they recognize them as Angels? I mean, at the time of Muhammad, some believers were Angels. The disbelievers of that time, saw these Angels, but did not recognize them as angles. Could be the same now? How do we know?

The verse before is addressing the disbelievers, so it's them. You said the verse before seeing them meant recognizing them, so it has to stay consistent with that. The problem is your interpretation is impossible but you just like saying things even if it doesn't make sense to convince yourself your faith is reasonable when it's absurd.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The verse before is addressing the disbelievers, so it's them. You said the verse before seeing them meant recognizing them, so it has to stay consistent with that. The problem is your interpretation is impossible but you just like saying things even if it doesn't make sense to convince yourself your faith is reasonable when it's absurd.

These prophecies have come to pass already. They are for a specific time and specific place, where the Mahdi rises:


هل ينظرون إلا أن يأتيهم الله في ظلل من الغمام والملائكة وقضي الامر وإلى الله ترجع الامور)] (البقرة - 210). أن المهدي عليه السلام يأتي العراق في سبع قباب من نور

هل ينظرون إلا أن يأتيهم الله في ظلل من الغمام والملائكة وقضي الامر وإلى الله ترجع الامور)] (البقرة - 210). أن المهدي عليه السلام يأتي العراق في سبع قباب من نور [1466 - (الامام الباقر عليه السلام) " ينزل في سبع قباب من نور، لا يعلم في أيها هو حين ينزل في ظهر الكوفة فهذا حين ينزل "

معجم أحاديث الإمام المهدي ع - الكوراني العاملي، الشيخ علي - کتابخانه مدرسه فقاهت

lib.eshia.ir

According to these Hadithes coming God and the angels, is an allusion to Rise of the Qaim, and His companions in Iraq, in the Kufa Land.

This is exactly where Baha'u'llah proclaimed His mission.
See, I am backing up my view with Hadithes of Imams, and with what actually happend according to history.

 

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These prophecies have come to pass already. They are for a specific time and specific place, where the Mahdi rises:


هل ينظرون إلا أن يأتيهم الله في ظلل من الغمام والملائكة وقضي الامر وإلى الله ترجع الامور)] (البقرة - 210). أن المهدي عليه السلام يأتي العراق في سبع قباب من نور

هل ينظرون إلا أن يأتيهم الله في ظلل من الغمام والملائكة وقضي الامر وإلى الله ترجع الامور)] (البقرة - 210). أن المهدي عليه السلام يأتي العراق في سبع قباب من نور [1466 - (الامام الباقر عليه السلام) " ينزل في سبع قباب من نور، لا يعلم في أيها هو حين ينزل في ظهر الكوفة فهذا حين ينزل "

معجم أحاديث الإمام المهدي ع - الكوراني العاملي، الشيخ علي - کتابخانه مدرسه فقاهت

lib.eshia.ir

According to these Hadithes coming God and the angels, is an allusion to Rise of the Qaim, and His companions in Iraq, in the Kufa Land.

This is exactly where Baha'u'llah proclaimed His mission.
See, I am backing up my view with Hadithes of Imams, and with what actually happend according to history.

Dude, how do disbelievers recognize Bahais as Angels, can you explain that?

 

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وَقَالَ الَّذِينَ لَا يَرْجُونَ لِقَاءَنَا لَوْلَا أُنْزِلَ عَلَيْنَا الْمَلَائِكَةُ أَوْ نَرَىٰ رَبَّنَا ۗ لَقَدِ اسْتَكْبَرُوا فِي أَنْفُسِهِمْ وَعَتَوْا عُتُوًّا كَبِيرًا | Those who do not expect to encounter Us say, ‘Why have angels not been sent down to us, or why do we not see our Lord?’ Certainly, they are full of arrogance within their souls and have become terribly defiant. | Al-Furqaan : 21

يَوْمَ يَرَوْنَ الْمَلَائِكَةَ لَا بُشْرَىٰ يَوْمَئِذٍ لِلْمُجْرِمِينَ وَيَقُولُونَ حِجْرًا مَحْجُورًا | The day they will see the angels, there will be no good news for the guilty on that day, and they will say, ‘Keep off [from paradise]!’ | Al-Furqaan : 22


There's the two verses. You said in the first it meant recognizing believers as good people. Then this would mean the day they see Angels, would mean, they recognize believers as good people.

Can you explain what it means then disbelievers now recognize bahais as Angels?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Dude, how do disbelievers recognize Bahais as Angels, can you explain that?

If you consider that, when Quran says, God comes down, it means, the Qaim rises in Iraq, then consider the people around, see the Qaim, with their physical eyes but do not recognize Him, as "meeting with God". Likewise consider, if by Angels, is meant, the companions of the Qaim, then, they see them but do not recognize them as "Angels". Isn't this the same as what happens at the time of Muhammad?

Let's look at the verse again:

On the day when they behold the angels, on that day there will be no good tidings for the guilty; and they will cry: A forbidding ban" 25:22

The first part says:

"On the day when they behold the angels", meaning, when the chosen ones who are the companions of the Qaim, are among them,

Then the rest of the verse:

"on that day there will be no good tidings for the guilty; and they will cry: A forbidding ban"

Meaning, the Qaim and companions, will announce something, that they do not like. Consider, that, according to Hadithes, the Qaim comes with a new Book, and abolishes the previous Law. Thus, when the Qaim through His companions (Angels), anounces that, the Sharia Law of Islam is expired, and now it is Time for a New Book, and New Law, it causes them to disbelieve. Thus, in the sight of God, they will be counted as "people of the Fire". Hence the verse says, "it will be a bad news for the disbelievers".

The issue that you have is, you are interpreting the Angels, as physical beings from sky, and that, when they come down, the will be seen by others. If this is your view, then, yes, my interpretation does not make sense to you.

 

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If you consider that, when Quran says, God comes down, it means, the Qaim rises in Iraq, then consider the people around, see the Qaim, with their physical eyes but do not recognize Him, as "meeting with God". Likewise consider, if by Angels, is meant, the companions of the Qaim, then, they see them but do not recognize them as "Angels". Isn't this the same as what happens at the time of Muhammad?

Let's look at the verse again:

On the day when they behold the angels, on that day there will be no good tidings for the guilty; and they will cry: A forbidding ban" 25:22

The first part says:

"On the day when they behold the angels", meaning, when the chosen ones who are the companions of the Qaim, are among them,

Then the rest of the verse:

"on that day there will be no good tidings for the guilty; and they will cry: A forbidding ban"

Meaning, the Qaim and companions, will announce something, that they do not like. Consider, that, according to Hadithes, the Qaim comes with a new Book, and abolishes the previous Law. Thus, when the Qaim through His companions (Angels), anounces that, the Sharia Law of Islam is expired, and now it is Time for a New Book, and New Law, it causes them to disbelieve. Thus, in the sight of God, they will be counted as "people of the Fire". Hence the verse says, "it will be a bad news for the disbelievers".

The issue that you have is, you are interpreting the Angels, as physical beings from sky, and that, when they come down, the will be seen by others. If this is your view, then, yes, my interpretation does not make sense to you.

I'm not going to explain it again. Angels were never seen as physical beings by the way, Jinn means "hidden being".

I've explained three times how your explanation is impossible, I am not going to repeat.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I'm not going to explain it again. Angels were never seen as physical beings by the way,

then, how do you expain it when Quran says, they will see the Angels? How that happens, if they are not seen as physical beings?

Jinn means "hidden being".

I've explained three times how your explanation is impossible, I am not going to repeat.

Ok, we can agree to disagree then.

 

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then, how do you expain it when Quran says, they will see the Angels? How that happens, if they are not seen as physical beings?

We are connected to a hidden world. On day of judgment, that world will be seen. What won't be seen is the beauty of the light by disbelievers, and rather, the light will burn them as we say to Imam Ali (a) in Ziyarat that he is the punishment/pain upon the disbelievers.

The Quran talks about people finally hearing the cry by truth, this means the caller to God (the Imam), doesn't force truth now and his call now is more subtle, but on day of judgment, he will force the truth and call people towards that hidden reality by a forced call.

Another name for Angels, is residents of the sky. We saw that in Surah Hiji sky had a spiritual realm meaning. So Angels are spiritual beings, but on day of judgment, everyone will see that reality because of the call by the leader with truth in a forced way.

Doors to the sky opening on day of judgment is another way to express the forced ascension and return to that realm. However, souls that hated God's light will be afflicted by it, they will not benefit from it, even if they acknowledge it as true, it's too late to love it at this point.

 

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Also, realizing light of Ahlulbayt (A) burns darkness of Shayateen, is a way to combat dark magic and using the lanterns in the sky as missiles against Devils is talked about through out Quran.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

There also many verses showing those who polytheists of that time and place worshiped would be Angels from one angle, but in reality, they were Jinn and Satanic ones at that.

One of the responses to why not Angels brought face to face is the following:

قُلْ لَوْ كَانَ فِي الْأَرْضِ مَلَائِكَةٌ يَمْشُونَ مُطْمَئِنِّينَ لَنَزَّلْنَا عَلَيْهِمْ مِنَ السَّمَاءِ مَلَكًا رَسُولًا | Say, ‘Had there been angels in the earth, walking around and residing [in it like humans do], We would have sent down to them an angel from the heaven as apostle.’ | Al-Israa : 95

This said in a rhetorical way that Angels are not here on earth.

Then, how do you explain, Angel Gabriel that came to earth, in the Cave and talked to Muhammad?

وَجَعَلُوا الْمَلَائِكَةَ الَّذِينَ هُمْ عِبَادُ الرَّحْمَٰنِ إِنَاثًا ۚ أَشَهِدُوا خَلْقَهُمْ ۚ سَتُكْتَبُ شَهَادَتُهُمْ وَيُسْأَلُونَ | They have made the angels—who are servants of the All-beneficent—females. Were they witness to their creation? Their testimony will be written down and they shall be questioned. | Az-Zukhruf : 19

This verse is rejecting the belief in Angels, the way, they believed in particular way. They imagined that, Angels are two-wing creatures who are female. Their belief is challenged by the Quran.

And these were regarding who they saw as daughters of God:

أَمِ اتَّخَذَ مِمَّا يَخْلُقُ بَنَاتٍ وَأَصْفَاكُمْ بِالْبَنِينَ | Did He adopt daughters from what He creates while He preferred you with sons? | Az-Zukhruf : 16

Then, what relation is between verse 16, with verse after it:

"Whenever one of them is given the good news of what they attribute to the Most Compassionate, his face grows gloomy, as he suppresses his rage." 43:17

And said:

وَلَوْ نَشَاءُ لَجَعَلْنَا مِنْكُمْ مَلَائِكَةً فِي الْأَرْضِ يَخْلُفُونَ | Had We wished We would put Angels from you in the earth are rulers/representatives/successors| Az-Zukhruf : 60

This is said also in a way that implies Isa (a) is not an Angel, because it is preceded with:

إِنْ هُوَ إِلَّا عَبْدٌ أَنْعَمْنَا عَلَيْهِ وَجَعَلْنَاهُ مَثَلًا لِبَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ | He was only a servant whom We favored upon and made an exemplar for the Children of Israel. | Az-Zukhruf : 59

Let's look at these verses in consecutive order, not backward.



إِنْ هُوَ إِلَّا عَبْدٌ أَنْعَمْنَا عَلَيْهِ وَجَعَلْنَاهُ مَثَلًا لِبَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ | He was only a servant whom We favored upon and made an exemplar for the Children of Israel. | Az-Zukhruf : 59


وَلَوْ نَشَاءُ لَجَعَلْنَا مِنْكُمْ مَلَائِكَةً فِي الْأَرْضِ يَخْلُفُونَ | Had We wished We would put Angels from you in the earth are rulers/representatives/successors| Az-Zukhruf : 60


Verse 60, seems to say, if God wanted Christians and Christianity to be the everlasting Faith on earth, God would have put the Angels the Christians believe in, as Rulers on earth. It does not imply that, Jesus could not be an Angel. I think, You are reading more than what it is saying.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

We are connected to a hidden world. On day of judgment, that world will be seen. What won't be seen is the beauty of the light by disbelievers, and rather, the light will burn them as we say to Imam Ali (a) in Ziyarat that he is the punishment/pain upon the disbelievers.

The Quran talks about people finally hearing the cry by truth, this means the caller to God (the Imam), doesn't force truth now and his call now is more subtle, but on day of judgment, he will force the truth and call people towards that hidden reality by a forced call.

Another name for Angels, is residents of the sky. We saw that in Surah Hiji sky had a spiritual realm meaning. So Angels are spiritual beings, but on day of judgment, everyone will see that reality because of the call by the leader with truth in a forced way.

Doors to the sky opening on day of judgment is another way to express the forced ascension and return to that realm. However, souls that hated God's light will be afflicted by it, they will not benefit from it, even if they acknowledge it as true, it's too late to love it at this point.

This ^ is not how, the Shia Imams interpreted those verses.
I think you are using alot of your imagination. You need to back them, with Hadithes, and show your view is how Muhammad and Imams explained them.

I backed up, everything I said, with Hadithes, while you did not seem to even consider them.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

وَقَالَ الَّذِينَ لَا يَرْجُونَ لِقَاءَنَا لَوْلَا أُنْزِلَ عَلَيْنَا الْمَلَائِكَةُ أَوْ نَرَىٰ رَبَّنَا ۗ لَقَدِ اسْتَكْبَرُوا فِي أَنْفُسِهِمْ وَعَتَوْا عُتُوًّا كَبِيرًا | Those who do not expect to encounter Us say, ‘Why have angels not been sent down to us, or why do we not see our Lord?’ Certainly, they are full of arrogance within their souls and have become terribly defiant. | Al-Furqaan : 21

Did the disbelievers at the time of Muhammad ever say, "why we do not see our Lord"?
Did they expect to see their Lord?

Then why this verse is saying "why we do not see our Lord"?

يَوْمَ يَرَوْنَ الْمَلَائِكَةَ لَا بُشْرَىٰ يَوْمَئِذٍ لِلْمُجْرِمِينَ وَيَقُولُونَ حِجْرًا مَحْجُورًا | The day they will see the angels, there will be no good news for the guilty on that day, and they will say, ‘Keep off [from paradise]!’ | Al-Furqaan : 22

There's the two verses. You said in the first it meant recognizing believers as good people.

Notice this part of the verse, 21:

"...why do we not see our Lord?.."

It seems to me that, this verse, must be a prophecy of what will happen on the Judgement Day, rather than an event, that happend at the time of Muhammad.


Prophet in the Hadith of Abu Huraira said:
"...Allah will come to them and say, 'I am Your Lord.' They will say, 'We shall stay in this place (we shall cling to our traditional beliefs and dogmas) till our Lord comes to us and when our Lord will come, we will recognize Him..." -Sahih Bukhari 1:770


it can mean that, when it is announced to them that, it is the Judgement Day, they say "why then we do not see our Lord and the Angels"!!!

It is because, they are arrogant, and thus they cannot recognize the Qaim, as "their Lord", and His companions as "the Angels".

The next verse says, on that Day, they see the Angels (the companions of the Qaim), but they are kept away from entering Paradis.
"seeing" in this instance, is physically seeing the companions, but does not mean, they recognize them as Angels.


remember, before I showed you, the verse, that, the number of Angels are 19.

"It is overseen by nineteen ˹keepers˺. We have appointed only angels to be wardens of the Fire, and their number have We made to be a stumbling-block for those who disbelieve; that those to whom the Scripture hath been given may have certainty, and that believers may increase in faith; and that those to whom the Scripture hath been given and believers may not doubt; and that those in whose hearts there is disease, and disbelievers, may say: What meaneth Allah by this similitude? Thus Allah sendeth astray whom He will, and whom He will He guideth. None knoweth the hosts of thy Lord save Him. This is naught else than a Reminder unto mortals" Quran 74:30-31

if you continue reading Surrah 34, you will see, these verses are about the even at the time of Qaim.