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Water into wine: natural or supernatural?

WonderingWorrier

Active Member
wedding feast have no wine

Like having no understanding of the word. Just like having no understanding of the word "Bread".

Like said here:

"And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened?" Mark

Notice hardened hearts don't have bread.


Consider here is having hearts as stones with the reason being they could not hear the words of the law:

"Yea, they made their hearts as an adamant stone, lest they should hear the law, and the words which the Lord of hosts hath sent in his spirit by the former prophets: therefore came a great wrath from the Lord of hosts". Zechariah


I know Bread and Wine are two different words of a specific OT law. They are in different positions shared with other words of the same law.

So I know it is very clear and logical to say the bread is the flesh, and the wine is the blood.
Because I know they have the same positions.

Bread - Oil - Wine
Flesh
- Bone - Blood
Sea - River - Stream


Those that couldn't understand the words would therefore have no wine, and no bread.

I recognise the gospel writers clearly understood the OT law. Because I can see they put their words in the right places within their sentences.

"Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word". John
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
To add to my post #160 ,
So the term super-Natural has been wrongly coined, by the Atheism people just to bully the Theism people, right?

Regards
_________________
"Supernatural refers to phenomena or entities that are beyond the laws of nature.[1] The term is derived from Medieval Latin supernaturalis, from Latin super- (above, beyond, or outside of) + natura (nature).[1] Although the corollary term "nature" has had multiple meanings since the ancient world, the term "supernatural" emerged in the Middle Ages[2] and did not exist in the ancient world.[3] "
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
To add to my post #160 ,
So the term super-Natural has been wrongly coined, by the Atheism people just to bully the Theism people, right?

Regards
_________________
"Supernatural refers to phenomena or entities that are beyond the laws of nature.[1] The term is derived from Medieval Latin supernaturalis, from Latin super- (above, beyond, or outside of) + natura (nature).[1] Although the corollary term "nature" has had multiple meanings since the ancient world, the term "supernatural" emerged in the Middle Ages[2] and did not exist in the ancient world.[3] "
I'm not sure why you would conclude that atheists use the word supernatural to bully theists. Supernatural merely mean, as you say above, something that is beyond the natural, meaning not governed by the laws of nature. Things like God, gods, angels, ghosts, jinn, demons, etc., are all supernatural, and there is nothing insulting or bullying about saying so. Your own source states that the word supernatural came into the English language in the middle ages. Atheists did not exist back then, so no, atheists did not make up this term.

Please stop saying "Atheism people," and "Theism people." It is very poor English, and sounds bizarre, and I have corrected you on this before. The proper words are atheists and theists.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I'm not sure why you would conclude that atheists use the word supernatural to bully theists. Supernatural merely mean, as you say above, something that is beyond the natural, meaning not governed by the laws of nature. Things like God, gods, angels, ghosts, jinn, demons, etc., are all supernatural, and there is nothing insulting or bullying about saying so. Your own source states that the word supernatural came into the English language in the middle ages. Atheists did not exist back then, so no, atheists did not make up this term.

Please stop saying "Atheism people," and "Theism people." It is very poor English, and sounds bizarre, and I have corrected you on this before. The proper words are atheists and theists.
It may be what you call poor English, but it makes sense. Maybe paarsurrey will change, maybe he will not nevertheless it makes more sense to say it the way he does because theists are not united in their beliefs, as you already know. Atheists it seems, are rather united.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Nobody else can know all the ins and outs of a thing except the creator of it, so whatever He says/said about a thing, that is only " natural", right?

Transforming (just) water into wine, “isn’t natural”.

Likewise, creating light from just words - “Let there be light” - that “isn’t natural”. Light don’t come from words, nor from nothing. Light requires a source, eg from the sun, from charged particles or charged molecules (ionized atoms or molecules) can result in light & colour lights, like fire or the aurora borealis & aurora australis.

Creating Adam from “dust of the ground” (soil) or from clay (Qur’an), are not natural. Humans are born, through reproduction.

They cannot be created from soil (soil types - clay, silt or sand), which are largely made of silicon-based minerals, like silicate (eg feldspar, mica) or silica (eg quartz). Silicate and silica are inorganic matters, none of these minerals are found in any cells or tissues in the human body. So what Genesis and Qur’an say about being created from some types of soil, isn’t natural.

So the term super-Natural has been wrongly coined, by the Atheism people just to bully the Theism people, right?

Regards
_________________
"Supernatural refers to phenomena or entities that are beyond the laws of nature.[1] The term is derived from Medieval Latin supernaturalis, from Latin super- (above, beyond, or outside of) + natura (nature).[1] Although the corollary term "nature" has had multiple meanings since the ancient world, the term "supernatural" emerged in the Middle Ages[2] and did not exist in the ancient world.[3] "

I am flabbergasted by your ignorance and your dishonesty.

You quoted wiki article on supernatural. Don’t you bother understand what you read?

It say the word supernatural, originated from Medieval Latin, paarsurrey: supernaturalis.

Medieval Latin, as in the “Middle Ages”, paarsurrey, Latin that was used in the Middle Ages, by scholars and Roman Catholic priesthood, and it spread to other medieval European kingdoms, like supernaturel in Middle French, spoken in medieval France, and into Middle English as supernaturel & supernatural in medieval England.

During the medieval period, in England, the language weren’t static, as the inhabitants, especially those who could read and write, often have words that of French origin, particularly Old French and Middle French, through the Normans (post-Norman Conquest), hence many of those in noble birth and priesthood, spoke and wrote in Anglo-Norman French. While the non-noble or nn-aristocrat English families spoke Middle English, it wasn’t really populnar until 13th century.

In Western Europe at that time, they were all Christians (minus Jews and Muslims that lived in Europe, eg Spain & Sicily that were partly ruled by the Moors).

Atheism didn’t exist at time in Europe, so atheists couldn’t have coined supernatural.

And it is not bully, to call magic and miracles, “supernatural”, or gods, angels, demons, spirits, “supernatural”.

Nature doesn’t defy any natural or physical laws, paarsurrey, but believing in imaginary beings or magic or miracle, do defy them.

Sure, there are things, that we don’t understand, and that we don’t have explanations for them, but it is honest person who say “I don’t know”, than someone who use “God did it” superstition.

People not too long ago before Jesus’ time, used to believe angels were the ones who move the Sun and Moon across the sky (eg the Book of Enoch). There were no understanding by people in those day about the Sun actually was a star, how there are sunlight, why Earth rotate on its own axis, or the earth orbiting the Sun (and not the other around; geocentric model was far more popular than heliocentric model), nothing about gravity, etc.

I don’t expect ancient Jews or Christians to know these things, because that’s what it was like, but in this day and age, we do know better with sciences on the Earth & Sun, they dispel myths and superstitions that plagued most religions, including the Bible and the Qur’an.

It is not bullying, when some theists used their respective religions & scriptures to define their truth about nature…especially when they are not true at all.
 
Last edited:

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
To add to my post #160 ,
So the term super-Natural has been wrongly coined, by the Atheism people just to bully the Theism people, right?

Regards
_________________
"Supernatural refers to phenomena or entities that are beyond the laws of nature.[1] The term is derived from Medieval Latin supernaturalis, from Latin super- (above, beyond, or outside of) + natura (nature).[1] Although the corollary term "nature" has had multiple meanings since the ancient world, the term "supernatural" emerged in the Middle Ages[2] and did not exist in the ancient world.[3] "
What about miracle? That doesn't seem to be in the same category as natural, right?
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Yeah, water cannot be turned into wine. The molecular composition is completely different. Science cannot do it today.
Only Jesus (in Bible) or Allah (of Qur'an) can do it. Bahaollah too could have done it. He was the 'return of Jesus'.
 
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gnostic

The Lost One
What about miracle? That doesn't seem to be in the same category as natural, right?

Miracles that defy law of nature, would of course not be classified as natural.

in my last post, I said it as much, not just with water into wine, but also a couple of other examples, like
  • creation of light from nothing or from words, and
  • transforming soil into man…

…neither of these are probable, nor are they natural.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
paarsurrey said:
To add to my post #160 ,
So the term super-Natural has been wrongly coined, by the Atheism people just to bully the Theism people, right?

Regards
_________________
"Supernatural refers to phenomena or entities that are beyond the laws of nature.[1] The term is derived from Medieval Latin supernaturalis, from Latin super- (above, beyond, or outside of) + natura (nature).[1] Although the corollary term "nature" has had multiple meanings since the ancient world, the term "supernatural" emerged in the Middle Ages[2] and did not exist in the ancient world.[3] "
Supernatural - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
What about miracle? That doesn't seem to be in the same category as natural, right?
The reality of Signs and or miracles are best and or properly understood with/under the Religious Method as it is best methodology for things that fall under the realm of ethical, moral and or spiritual; the same ways as the Scientific Method is the tool and or methodology used to understand the reality of the things falling under the material and or physical realms, please, right?

Regards
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Transforming (just) water into wine, “isn’t natural”.

Likewise, creating light from just words - “Let there be light” - that “isn’t natural”. Light don’t come from words, nor from nothing. Light requires a source, eg from the sun, from charged particles or charged molecules (ionized atoms or molecules) can result in light & colour lights, like fire or the aurora borealis & aurora australis.

Creating Adam from “dust of the ground” (soil) or from clay (Qur’an), are not natural. Humans are born, through reproduction.
....

You quoted wiki article on supernatural. Don’t you bother understand what you read?
I think (not sure) we can agree that making wine from water is not the natural way of making wine.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
paarsurrey said:
To add to my post #160 ,
So the term super-Natural has been wrongly coined, by the Atheism people just to bully the Theism people, right?

Regards
_________________
"Supernatural refers to phenomena or entities that are beyond the laws of nature.[1] The term is derived from Medieval Latin supernaturalis, from Latin super- (above, beyond, or outside of) + natura (nature).[1] Although the corollary term "nature" has had multiple meanings since the ancient world, the term "supernatural" emerged in the Middle Ages[2] and did not exist in the ancient world.[3] "
Supernatural - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org

The reality of Signs and or miracles are best and or properly understood with/under the Religious Method as it is best methodology for things that fall under the realm of ethical, moral and or spiritual; the same ways as the Scientific Method is the tool and or methodology used to understand the reality of the things falling under the material and or physical realms, please, right?

Regards
Forgive me, paarsurrey but your posts are a bit too abstruse for me to follow. Therefore, I pass. :) Have a good day.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Miracles that defy law of nature, would of course not be classified as natural.

in my last post, I said it as much, not just with water into wine, but also a couple of other examples, like
  • creation of light from nothing or from words, and
  • transforming soil into man…

…neither of these are probable, nor are they natural.
As far as probable, of course the Bible says that God made the earth ready for life on it. Therefore, whatever happened in the way of creation is not something that, to the best of my knowledge, mankind can do. (In reference to the universe and planets I mean. Maybe some scientists claim they have created light, I don't know, but I'm kind of expecting someone to jump in and say yes, they have. :) Or better yet, maybe they--the scientists--will eventually figure out how to make planets, light, etc. from -- um -- nothing or maybe something like -- gravity, maybe.)
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
paarsurrey said:
To add to my post #160 ,
So the term super-Natural has been wrongly coined, by the Atheism people just to bully the Theism people, right?

Regards
_________________
"Supernatural refers to phenomena or entities that are beyond the laws of nature.[1] The term is derived from Medieval Latin supernaturalis, from Latin super- (above, beyond, or outside of) + natura (nature).[1] Although the corollary term "nature" has had multiple meanings since the ancient world, the term "supernatural" emerged in the Middle Ages[2] and did not exist in the ancient world.[3] "
Supernatural - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org

The reality of Signs and or miracles are best and or properly understood with/under the Religious Method as it is best methodology for things that fall under the realm of ethical, moral and or spiritual; the same ways as the Scientific Method is the tool and or methodology used to understand the reality of the things falling under the material and or physical realms, please, right?

Regards
(whatever...and have a nice day, evening, whatever you want to call it, right?)
 

WonderingWorrier

Active Member
Why should a Christian read a book on Christianity written by a Muslim?

There is a logical reason. The truth of the words.

Just like the Bible, the Quran also talks about corn, olives, and grapes, and the bread, the oil, and the wine.

Consider it is as I said here earlier:

Yeah they are possible, but perhaps not in the way that you think.


The Bible speaks of fields, oliveyards, and vineyards (three different things):

"And he will take your fields, and your vineyards, and your oliveyards, even the best of them, and give them to his servants". Samuel.

And it speaks of corn, olives, and grapes (three different things)
And it speaks of bread, oil, and wine (three different things).

Nine different things can be seen as just three different things:

The Bread is of the Corn of the Field.
The Oil is of the Olive of the Oliveyard
The Wine is of the Grape of the Vineyard

Field - Oliveyard - Vineyard
Corn - Olive - Grape
Bread - Oil - Wine

Wine is as one of three different glories (Bread, Oil, and Wine).
"Thou art filled with shame for glory: drink thou also, and let thy foreskin be uncovered: the cup of the Lord's right hand shall be turned unto thee, and shameful spewing shall be on thy glory". Habakkuk


Like the moon, the stars, and the sun are as three glories.
"There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory". Corinthians.

Like spears, swords, and bows are as three glories.
"Therefore set I in the lower places behind the wall, and on the higher places, I even set the people after their families with their swords, their spears, and their bows". Nehemiah

Bread - Oil - Wine
Moon - Star - Sun
Spear - Sword - Bow




Then please consider the different sets of three glories to see how this "miracle" works:

"The sun and moon stood still in their habitation: at the light of thine arrows they went, and at the shining of thy glittering spear". Habakkuk.

The "miracle" is simply an overlap of two sets of glories. Showing they are as the same things.

Bread - Oil - Wine
Moon - Star - Sun
Spear
- Sword - Bow

Therefore the sun and the moon are in fixed positions (of glories), The arrows/bow and the spear positioning confirms it.
And knowing the star is as the sword further confirms it.


Maybe you are just frustrated and irritated because you dont know what a miracle is, as you dont know how they work.

Maybe you are not understanding the subject.


Consider if there is no need of the sun:

"And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof". Revelation

Bread - Oil - Wine
Moon - Star - Sun
Cattle - Goat - Sheep

Can you understand the glory of the sun, is exactly the same thing as the glory of the sheep?
As the Bible speaks of judgement between cattle, goats, and sheep.


Can you understand the glory of the sheep, and the glory of the wine are as the same thing?
Like the Bible speaks of the sheep of the mountain, and the Bible speaks about the "miracle" of wine flowing from the mountain.


If you can understand the overlapping of certain words relevant to their shared positioning, then you will be able to understand how the "miracles" work.


So with an awareness of certain overlapping words listen to this Quran verse:

"Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The Parable of His Light is as if there were a Niche and within it a Lamp: the Lamp enclosed in Glass: the glass as it were a brilliant star: Lit from a blessed Tree, an Olive, neither of the east nor of the west, whose oil is well-nigh luminous, though fire scarce touched it: Light upon Light! Allah doth guide whom He will to His Light: Allah doth set forth Parables for men: and Allah doth know all things". Muhammad 24:35


I already knew there is a connection between the Star and the Oil and the Olive tree. They are words in the same position, overlapping, in alignment.

Like what I was saying earlier (quoted) and showing their word placement:


Field - Oliveyard - Vineyard
Corn - Olive - Grape
Bread - Oil - Wine

Bread - Oil - Wine
Moon - Star - Sun
Spear
- Sword - Bow

So we can also see the Star is as the Olive and Oil, being in the same position, overlapping, in alignment.

Therefore I know the Quran is logically correct in what it said. Because Muhammad is putting his words in the right places.

Corn - Olive - Grape
Bread - Oil - Wine
Moon - Star - Sun
Spear - Sword - Bow

Connecting the star, the olive, and the oil, is not a coincidence. It is clearly a scientific fact.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Would you trust a Christian to write a book about Islam? Why should a Christian read a book on Christianity written by a Muslim?
I actually don't mind reading about other religions, but do believe what the Bible says rather than someone claiming to be a prophet and not making sense to me.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
There is a logical reason. The truth of the words.

Just like the Bible, the Quran also talks about corn, olives, and grapes, and the bread, the oil, and the wine.

Consider it is as I said here earlier:




So with an awareness of certain overlapping words listen to this Quran verse:

"Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The Parable of His Light is as if there were a Niche and within it a Lamp: the Lamp enclosed in Glass: the glass as it were a brilliant star: Lit from a blessed Tree, an Olive, neither of the east nor of the west, whose oil is well-nigh luminous, though fire scarce touched it: Light upon Light! Allah doth guide whom He will to His Light: Allah doth set forth Parables for men: and Allah doth know all things". Muhammad 24:35


I already knew there is a connection between the Star and the Oil and the Olive tree. They are words in the same position, overlapping, in alignment.

Like what I was saying earlier (quoted) and showing their word placement:






So we can also see the Star is as the Olive and Oil, being in the same position, overlapping, in alignment.

Therefore I know the Quran is logically correct in what it said. Because Muhammad is putting his words in the right places.

Corn - Olive - Grape
Bread - Oil - Wine
Moon - Star - Sun
Spear - Sword - Bow

Connecting the star, the olive, and the oil, is not a coincidence. It is clearly a scientific fact.
This is the most nonsensical post I have read today. The reasoning is so messed up, that I can't make head or tails of it.
 

WonderingWorrier

Active Member
This is the most nonsensical post I have read today. The reasoning is so messed up, that I can't make head or tails of it.


Thanks for an honest answer. This is the most helpful reply that I have had since I came to this forum. I have wanted to leave since the day I joined. Your reply gives me something of substance to consider.

I'm not sure why I am not being understood. I don't think it is lack of intelligence because I think what I'm trying to explain is simple to understand. It seemed to be more a lack of interest and unfairly being classed as wrong by assumption. Like being told I am talking about the Bible Code and that it has been proven false showing me a wikipedia page which has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. That wasn't helpful.

I might be speaking nonsense. I am sure crazy people think that they are correct and what they say is simple and coherent. But nobody understands.

But do not take me for someone who was searching for reasons to justify my blind faith. I have no reason to twist and force the Bible to somehow be true to assure myself of heaven and everlasting life. I have a different reason to believe the words are true. If I didnt notice how the words are strangely true then I would have put the Bible on the shelf next to Harry Potter and be agreement with the Atheists.

The sentences of the Bible started out as being nonsense to me, but I kept noticing the same words were being used in other sentences of nonsense so I started writing them down. I noticed certain words were associated with other certain words and formed word groups. I then used a word search to get an overview of every time a certain word gets mentioned in the bible. I noticed there are different layers of words and the sentences of nonsense were in fact weaving the layers together. The word weaving is what makes the words said true. Words have their places along with other words.



Like these three different words:

"And wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face to shine, and bread which strengtheneth man's heart". Psalm.



Are connected to these three different words:

"There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory". Corinthians


Which are also connected to these three different words:

"Therefore set I in the lower places behind the wall, and on the higher places, I even set the people after their families with their swords, their spears, and their bows". Nehemiah



I noticed in this word weaving verse that I mentioned earlier it has only two words from each set of three words. Sun and Moon, also Arrows (Bow) and Spear.

Here:

Then please consider the different sets of three glories to see how this "miracle" works:

"The sun and moon stood still in their habitation: at the light of thine arrows they went, and at the shining of thy glittering spear". Habakkuk.

The "miracle" is simply an overlap of two sets of glories. Showing they are as the same things.

Bread - Oil - Wine
Moon - Star - Sun
Spear
- Sword - Bow

I noticed the verse did not mention one word from each set. It did not mention the Sword and the Star.

By listening to the word weaving speech of the Bible I know the Olive, Oil, Star, and Sword are words of the same position. They are in an alignment. Woven together.

Corn - Olive - Grape
Bread - Oil - Wine
Moon - Star - Sun
Spear - Sword - Bow


I know the sword is as the star, and the sword is as oil:

"The words of his mouth were smoother than butter, but war was in his heart: his words were softer than oil, yet were they drawn swords". Psalm.


So when I heard the Quran was connecting words like the Star and Oil and Olive tree I understood it was positioning the words in the same way as I had heard from the Bible. I could show other examples of the Quran putting its words in the right places.

But I might just be crazy and not making any sense.
 
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