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Was Satan wrong to demand equal rights in heaven?

Greatest I am

Well-Known Member
Equal rights? Really?
For example neo nazi says: I wont shake hands with Jew, iam better than him. Is the neo Nazi demanding equal rights?
Prostration to Adam was not worship, but mere showing respect because Allah created him with His hands and gave them the command to prostrate out of respect.


Satan was doomed because of his pride and arrogance. Not his disbelief in the Oneness of Allah.
His pride and arrogance lead him to disobey command of Allah, that lead to his failure.

Thinking yourself better than another begins with thinking you are at least equal and then put yourself above from there.

You just do not jump right ahead before even thinking yourself equal.

All we know of any of Allah's commands was written in a Qu'ran that is just one of many myths and is only real to those foolish enough to have faith and who go into intellectual dissonance.

All religions should be based on morality and yours is no better than Christianity. Both of your religions just produce immoral homophobic and misogynous people who deny others equal rights.


Faith closes the mind. It is pure idol worship.

Faith is a way to quit using, "God given" power of Reason and Logic, and cause the faithful to embrace doctrines that moral people reject.

The God of the OT says, “Come now, and let us reason together,” [Isaiah 1:18]

How can literalists reason with God when they must ignore reason and logic and discard them when turning into literalist?

Those who are literalists can only reply somewhat in the fashion that Martin Luther did.
“Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding.”
“Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.”

This attitude effectively kills all worthy communication that non-theists can have with theist. Faith closes the mind as it is pure idol worship.

Literalism is an evil practice that hides the true messages of myths. We cannot show our faith based friends that they are wrong through their faith colored glasses. Their faith also plugs their ears.

Regards
DL
 

Greatest I am

Well-Known Member
I could not disagree more strongly. Being humble is one of the things I try to do in my life. And what God in particular doesn't have humility as a trait? I don't attend church, btw. And I am far from guilt ridden. I live, as possibl, by the tach inns of the Buddha and that works just fine.

If Buddhist then you should know better than to seek a supernatural God.

I argue against idol worshiping Muslims and Christians and not Buddhists because they usually agree with my positions as they are generally brighter than Christians and Muslims.

Humble is for those unsure of their positions. I do not take a position that is not well thought out. Pride will not let me so I will put pride as more valuable than humbleness.

Regards
DL
 

Greatest I am

Well-Known Member
Satan did not demand equal rights in heaven - the war in heaven was over free will. Satan wanted to turn everyone into robots that followed his every whim. Either:
a) you allow everyone their own free will in which case their will be sin and suffering because people will choose xyz... but we will have free will or
b) you do not allow anyone free will, you force everyone to be good in which case their is no suffering, but everyone are mindless robots.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that the war was over equal rights?


Here is info on the war in heaven and what it was over:
War in Heaven

"Satan wanted to turn everyone into robots that followed his every whim."

That is what God wanted as well as no one is allowed in heaven who does not kowtow to whatever God wants.

Paul said that we are either slaves to sin or slaves to God. God runs a tyranny and Satan did not want to be a slave and chose to try to be equal with God.

I am told that evil thought are not allowed in heaven and that means that there is no free will there at all. So put your free will card aside as it does not apply.

Regards
DL
 

Sabour

Well-Known Member
Do you not worship your God?

Is your God not your greatest idol and ideal and do you not idolize him and place him above all else?

Regards
DL

Please look at the definition of idol worship
A simple definition of idol worship is to believe that anything beside God can help us, or to hold something as more important to us than God.


Worshiping Allah, the only deity is not an idol worship
 

gsa

Well-Known Member
If Allaah bothered to show up to rule then we might accept him but all we have are Muslim men speaking for Allaah so one wonders just what kind of tyranny Allaah will have when men do all of his talking.

Your con sounds just as far fetched as Christianity's claims.

How is it that Muslims read the Abrahamic myths as real when even the Jews do not?

Regards
DL

To be clear, I am not a Christian or a Muslim.
 

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
Click to expand...


"God created the potential for that attitude. Satan chose that attitude."

You say that man and Satan have the same attitudes. I agree. That is what your God created us to have.

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.

That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all sin by nature then, the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin.

Regards
DL

Are we to say that God would be guilty for forcing us to do what he says -but also guilty for allowing us to have whatever attitude and take whatever action we choose?
The only way for God to not be "guilty" under that reasoning would be to not have created creative individual beings.

The point is that the "nature" God gave Eve in the first place could not have been otherwise INSTANTANEOUSLY.
The better "nature" requires that the individual -angel or human -master being what they are and master their circumstances.
It requires that they learn their nature and the nature of their environment -and become masters of both.
That requires a period of time between initial awareness and mastery.
Part of our nature is the ability to choose our own attitudes -which is necessary for true individuality and creativity.
Until we know enough, we cannot have a proper attitude toward reality.
Satan and Eve were told the truth, but they did not know that it was the truth.
Rather than being cautious, they acted in ignorance on their doubts and incorrect beliefs -and will prove by the results thereof that God was telling the truth.

God very much understood this could happen.

God did not create the attitude -God created the potential for the attitude.
He is responsible -but not guilty of anything. He had already planned for this -and that plan will make all things new.
Initially, all things were new, but unstable. All things will be new again, but stable -because the potential for doubt will have been removed.
It is exactly like the attitudes of children. Children are new, inexperienced, ignorant, etc. -but innocently so (but that can turn otherwise).
When people have children, they should expect that "attitude", because it is the result of perfectly good and natural desires coupled with inexperience.
I want this. Why can't I have that? Why don't you let me whatever?
Satan is essentially a rebellious child -but an extremely powerful one who has chosen an adversarial attitude.

God considers both actions and attitude in the discipline he carries out for our eventual benefit -as even any good human parent should.

It is incorrect to think that God created angels and men -and then things went haywire and God lost control.
The truth is that our initial creation was only the beginning of the process of our creation.
After our initial creation is a process of spiritual perfection -and it was the plan from the beginning.


Sin IS dominant initially. Why? Because righteousness (doing things the right way) is something which must be developed over time.

"Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall"

"Culpable" implies that he did something wrong, but it was not wrong for him to create us in an initial state of being able to make mistakes.
God claims full responsibility for our initial nature.
He does not blame us for it -he holds us responsible and accountable when appropriate, because our perfect end nature requires that we be responsible and accountable.
It could not have been otherwise given the intended end result.

Furthermore, because God is responsible for causing our initial state of imperfection (as with any project which is not yet complete), he is also responsible for making things right.

He will do so. That has been the plan all along, but we have the ability to complain, whine and throw tantrums before he is finished.

When he is finished, everything will be perfect. This present state of imperfection will no longer be -and will eventually not be remembered.

Rev_3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Jas 1:4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying,
neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.


Isa_65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
 

Greatest I am

Well-Known Member
Please look at the definition of idol worship



Worshiping Allah, the only deity is not an idol worship

I do not care about your link. I cannot argue with a link but the fact that you refuse to answer simple questions is indicative of your inability to recognize what you are and what you are doing.

Go back and answer the questions. They are quite easy to answer if you are an honest person.

Regards
DL
 

Greatest I am

Well-Known Member
Are we to say that God would be guilty for forcing us to do what he says -but also guilty for allowing us to have whatever attitude and take whatever action we choose?
The only way for God to not be "guilty" under that reasoning would be to not have created creative individual beings.

The point is that the "nature" God gave Eve in the first place could not have been otherwise INSTANTANEOUSLY.
The better "nature" requires that the individual -angel or human -master being what they are and master their circumstances.
It requires that they learn their nature and the nature of their environment -and become masters of both.
That requires a period of time between initial awareness and mastery.
Part of our nature is the ability to choose our own attitudes -which is necessary for true individuality and creativity.
Until we know enough, we cannot have a proper attitude toward reality.
Satan and Eve were told the truth, but they did not know that it was the truth.
Rather than being cautious, they acted in ignorance on their doubts and incorrect beliefs -and will prove by the results thereof that God was telling the truth.

God very much understood this could happen.

God did not create the attitude -God created the potential for the attitude.
He is responsible -but not guilty of anything. He had already planned for this -and that plan will make all things new.
Initially, all things were new, but unstable. All things will be new again, but stable -because the potential for doubt will have been removed.
It is exactly like the attitudes of children. Children are new, inexperienced, ignorant, etc. -but innocently so (but that can turn otherwise).
When people have children, they should expect that "attitude", because it is the result of perfectly good and natural desires coupled with inexperience.
I want this. Why can't I have that? Why don't you let me whatever?
Satan is essentially a rebellious child -but an extremely powerful one who has chosen an adversarial attitude.

God considers both actions and attitude in the discipline he carries out for our eventual benefit -as even any good human parent should.

It is incorrect to think that God created angels and men -and then things went haywire and God lost control.
The truth is that our initial creation was only the beginning of the process of our creation.
After our initial creation is a process of spiritual perfection -and it was the plan from the beginning.


Sin IS dominant initially. Why? Because righteousness (doing things the right way) is something which must be developed over time.

"Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall"

"Culpable" implies that he did something wrong, but it was not wrong for him to create us in an initial state of being able to make mistakes.
God claims full responsibility for our initial nature.
He does not blame us for it -he holds us responsible and accountable when appropriate, because our perfect end nature requires that we be responsible and accountable.
It could not have been otherwise given the intended end result.

Furthermore, because God is responsible for causing our initial state of imperfection (as with any project which is not yet complete), he is also responsible for making things right.

He will do so. That has been the plan all along, but we have the ability to complain, whine and throw tantrums before he is finished.

When he is finished, everything will be perfect. This present state of imperfection will no longer be -and will eventually not be remembered.

Rev_3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Jas 1:4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying,
neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.


Isa_65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

I went this far.

"Satan and Eve were told the truth, but they did not know that it was the truth."

So God created then too stupid to know truth from lies. You dig yourself further into your hole.

--------------------

"Rather than being cautious, they acted in ignorance"

The bible says that Eve was deceived so your statement of her not being cautious is a false one. Do you concede that point?

If your God was as peeved with Satan as you seem to think, why did your God give Satan the power to deceive the whole world and why did God place Satan in the garden right where Eve was?

Regards
DL
 

psychoslice

Veteran Member
Of course I don't believe in heaven, but if there was one it would represent oneness, if there is a God that is lording it over every one else, then yes Satan was right to do what he did.
 

Greatest I am

Well-Known Member
Of course I don't believe in heaven, but if there was one it would represent oneness, if there is a God that is lording it over every one else, then yes Satan was right to do what he did.

Strange how non-Christians can think more clearly than idol worshiping Christians.

Thanks for the reply.

If Christians were more concerned with enlightenment as most Eastern religions are and not just focused on obedience and their get into heaven free card/scapegoat whipping boy, then they too might think clearly.

Regards
DL
 

Sabour

Well-Known Member
I do not care about your link. I cannot argue with a link but the fact that you refuse to answer simple questions is indicative of your inability to recognize what you are and what you are doing.

Go back and answer the questions. They are quite easy to answer if you are an honest person.

Regards
DL

I only provided the link to show you where I got the definition from. I am not asking you to argue the link.

Don't question my honesty because I am a direct person and I do know what I am talking about.

You made a claim that caught my eyes and I was clarifying it for you. That is all.
 

Greatest I am

Well-Known Member
I only provided the link to show you where I got the definition from. I am not asking you to argue the link.

Don't question my honesty because I am a direct person and I do know what I am talking about.

You made a claim that caught my eyes and I was clarifying it for you. That is all.

If honest and direct as you say then I expect you to give an honest and direct answer to the original question.

Regards
DL
 

InChrist

Free4ever
Yes. I have thought this through. Thanks for trying to demean the result. Cheep shot.

" I believe the answer lies in the reality that we are created beings made in God's image, but we are not God, and therefore we all sin and fall short of God's goodness and perfection."

Correct. We all sin and cannot but to do so and for God to punish us for being the sinners he created us to be would be quite immoral.

Do you agree.

Regards
DL
I apologize if you thought I was trying to demean your thoughts or make a cheap shot at you personally. That was not my intention, so I am sorry if it came across that way.

I don't agree with your conclusion, though. While it is true that since we are not God and therefore not perfect we can't help but fall short and sin, yet.God has freely provided a way to be free of sin. It is this option which anyone has complete freedom and power to choose to accept or reject. If someone chooses to persist in sin I think God is just in dealing with it according to His wisdom and I think contrary to your perspective it would be incredibly immoral for God to allow sin and its horrible consequences to go on and on for an eternity.
 

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
I went this far.

"Satan and Eve were told the truth, but they did not know that it was the truth."

So God created then too stupid to know truth from lies. You dig yourself further into your hole.

--------------------

"Rather than being cautious, they acted in ignorance"

The bible says that Eve was deceived so your statement of her not being cautious is a false one. Do you concede that point?

If your God was as peeved with Satan as you seem to think, why did your God give Satan the power to deceive the whole world and why did God place Satan in the garden right where Eve was?

Regards
DL
Eve was deceived -and also was not cautious -and acted in ignorance.
All can be true.
She could have done things differently -like getting more info before acting.

You did not go far enough -you did not consider what I wrote enough -but went forward in error......

Ironically, the same mistake Satan and Eve made.

.......................

God becomes angry for generally the same reasons we do.
He is angry with Satan's foolishness -but is also patient.
God does not hate Satan -and would accept him as the father of the "prodigal son" did if he repented.

God did purposefully allow Satan and Eve to interact, etc.
The reason is that it will eventually be for the benefit of all.
The psychological effect of such juxtaposition coupled with the experience base all will eventually have will bring all to the point of acceptance of the truth with the proper attitude.

It is possible that any who utterly refuse to accept what is good -having proved that it is -but still choose a destructive path may be destroyed -but it is not outside the realm of possibility that all eventually accept the truth and live by it. Still, they must choose it.

This is why the being which became Christ went and preached to the spirits in "prison" -those rebellious angels which were restrained. The following is not referring to the spirits of dead men......

I Pet 3
".....but quickened by the Spirit: 19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah"

God did not create stupid beings -but inexperienced ones.

Informing someone of all truth that exists still allows for them to wonder and doubt.
I can tell you there is nothing in my glove box, but you don't know it is the truth because you are not certain that I always tell the truth. You might just want to check it out for yourself.
It has nothing to do with your intelligence.
I can tell you there is something in the glove box that will affect you adversely, but you may still decide to check it if you think I'm hiding something that would benefit you.

It is not just about knowing the truth -but knowing the person.

All Satan knew about God was what God told him.
God instructed Satan not to act contrary to him -that obeying him was the best course of action -and that he was telling him the truth.
Satan wanted to see that which was not -and do that which was not being done.
He could have reasoned it out, but that doesn't drive a point home like experience does.
He is checking the glove box -and will prove that God is God -that he is telling the truth.

Allowing beings to prove what is true in the way they choose will lead to them eventually accepting the truth for themselves -but it produces a lot of misery in the meantime.
 
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Mountain_Climber

Active Member
It would be a bit rediculous to claim Satan thought he could fight God and win. It certainly was not about Satan trying to be equal to God persay.

Cain and Abel are but a reflection of what took place in heaven, (Not saying they were not real people. That has nothing to do with my point so just listen until I finish.)

We must appreciate that no one that met God in person would be foolish enought to try to take his place. They could not kill God but he could kill them. He made you and he can umake you. It is simple as that. But God does give honor to those who he loves and who love him back. We do the same for our loved ones. We accord them honor which includes not seeing them as inferiors and includes granting them special privleges. We saw that interplay in the story of Cain and Abel.

What Lucifer was shown to do was assign that honor to himself rather than cooperating with God to learn wisdom and gain that honor the right way, a way in which once he had that honor he would be qualified to handle it respectfully to the benefit of all.

We find that the king of babylon was compared to Satan's having done that: Isaiah 14:14 "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High."

Not "be God", but, "be like the most high." He took to himself that place of honor (that sort of imputed equality) without being blessed of it by God. And we read similar things about the prince of Tyrus at Ezekiel chapter 28.

This is paralleled by Adam:
Genesis 3:22-23 "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken."

Adam should have been patient to work with God the bonds of love and then before he began having children he would have in due time been ready for the responsibility. And Satan knew he could not likely catch Adam directly, so he used Adam's love of Eve against Adam to devide Adam away from listening to God.

The lesson in all of this that is vital for us, and as even was modeled to us in Christ, is, 1 Peter 5:6 "Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time."

And when he does we will then be ready to handle the exaltation properly for the sake of all.
 

Greatest I am

Well-Known Member
I apologize if you thought I was trying to demean your thoughts or make a cheap shot at you personally. That was not my intention, so I am sorry if it came across that way.

I don't agree with your conclusion, though. While it is true that since we are not God and therefore not perfect we can't help but fall short and sin, yet.God has freely provided a way to be free of sin. It is this option which anyone has complete freedom and power to choose to accept or reject. If someone chooses to persist in sin I think God is just in dealing with it according to His wisdom and I think contrary to your perspective it would be incredibly immoral for God to allow sin and its horrible consequences to go on and on for an eternity.

Yet to take God's provided method, you have to embrace the notion that it is just to punish the innocent instead of the guilty.

If you are willing to sell your soul to Satan to keep your get into heaven in an immoral way ticket, then by all means follow your satanic creed.

----------------------

Imagine you have two children. One of your children does something wrong – say it curses, or throws a temper tantrum, or something like that. In fact, say it does this on a regular basis, and you continually forgive your child, but it never seems to change.

Now suppose one day you’ve had enough, you need to do something different. You still wish to forgive your child, but nothing has worked. Do you go to your second child, your good child, and punish it to atone for the sins of the first?

In fact, if you ever saw a parent on the street punish one of their children for the actions of their other child, how would you react? Would you support their decision, or would you be offended? Because God punished Jesus -- his good child -- for the sins of his other children.

Interestingly, some historical royal families would beat their slaves when their own children did wrong – you should not, after all, ever beat a prince. The question is: what kind of lesson does that teach the child who actually did the harm? Does it teach them to be a better person, to stop doing harm, or does it teach them both that they won't themselves be punished, and also that punishing other people is normal? I know that's not a lesson I would want to teach my children, and I suspect it's not a lesson most Christians would want to teach theirs. So why does God?

For me, that’s at least one significant reason I find Jesus’ atonement of our sin to be morally repugnant – of course, that’s assuming Jesus ever existed; that original sin actually exists; that God actually exists; etc.

Having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.

Do you agree?

Regards
DL
 
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