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The Problem with an Eternally Pre-Existing universe

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Staff member
Premium Member
Time moves forward, not backward. Causality dictates that cause comes before effect, beginning before end. So, to have an eternity of past makes no sense. You would have an infinite number of causes, which were in turn effects of previous causes. This leaves you with a causeless reality, a series of effects without cause. Dominoes falling with no first domino.

The illusion of it making sense derives from looking at time backwards.

You are here at P. Looking ahead, it makes sense that time continues forever, no ending point, just effects causing more effects, and more, and more, continuous. No problem here, causality has nothing against effects becoming causes for more effects endlessly.

Here's where the illusion starts: looking backwards it may seem to make sense that time had always existed forever before hand. You can think back 3 billion years and just keep subtracting millions and millions, and even billions endlessly, because you are looking outward at it.

It's mathematically possible to keep subtracting centuries and centuries, but realistically impossible due to causality.

Because time moves forward, you must apply that to your vision of the timeline of existence if you want to test the accuracy of this notion that time had no beginning. But you can't. There is no starting point, you have nowhere to beginning the forward view of time. Jumping to some random point of time doesn't count because it just takes you to looking at the infinite history backwards again, drawing the same illusion.



A great noteworthy example: Imagine a boy who had never been born, who had always existed. Because you live from birth to death, and not the other way around, he'd have to have experienced an eternity of life already, but that doesn't make sense. How did he get to this point of his life if he had to live an endless amount of time to get there, considering eternity has no end? How could he have an end with no beginning? How could he exist if he never entered existence?
 

columbus

yawn <ignore> yawn
Time moves forward, not backward. Causality dictates that cause comes before effect, beginning before end. So, to have an eternity of past makes no sense.
One of the things that I have noticed is that advanced science keeps finding things that are counterintuitive but true.
For instance, why do objects gain mass with velocity? If you keep pushing something it should keep gaining speed. But, no, the speed of light remains. Darn.
Tom
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Beware trying to fit Reality into the subjective perception of an ape whose brain's designed to deal with immediate problems of survival.

What if:
Time moved both forward and backward?
Events existed on a sort of endless film loop, running forever?
 

Deathbydefault

Apistevist Asexual Atheist
Maybe it did have a beginning, it could still be described as infinite.
The vast past and the even more vast future.
If we talk in terms of infinity, the big bang and everything it's caused and continues to cause will be gone in micro-seconds.
There is no actual human ability to understand just what infinity means logically.
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
What if:
Time moved both forward and backward?
Events existed on a sort of endless film loop, running forever?
Yup. Or "now" is really a matter of effects that have causes in both past and future. We're on the cusp of a wave with water in all directions. Time is perhaps an illusion produced by our minds.
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
Maybe it did have a beginning, it could still be described as infinite.
The vast past and the even more vast future.
If we talk in terms of infinity, the big bang and everything it's caused and continues to cause will be gone in micro-seconds.
There is no actual human ability to understand just what infinity means logically.
It's like fractal geometry, where you can have infinite circumference while having finite space (or something like that). So perhaps time can have a beginning, but the "ultimate reality" (the underlying principles of our existence) as such doesn't have to. Which makes that... kind'a like God, but without the personal human-like attributes. More like Quantum God or Super-String God perhaps. :D
 

buddhist

Well-Known Member
Time moves forward, not backward. Causality dictates that cause comes before effect, beginning before end. So, to have an eternity of past makes no sense. You would have an infinite number of causes, which were in turn effects of previous causes. This leaves you with a causeless reality, a series of effects without cause. Dominoes falling with no first domino.
IMO there is no time outside of the universe (aka samsara). The universe possesses the illusion of time and causality within itself, but outside (nibbana), it possesses neither.

Imagine a tree with an infinite number of branches at every 1.616199(97)×10−35 meters (planck length, theoretically the smallest possible distance). At each point on that "tree" you'll find an infinite number of branches growing from it; the branches represents the diversity of choice at that specific point in "time". That is, at this particular moment, you possess an infinite number of choices open to you which you can choose from, and all those choices are already realized in the grand scheme of the universe. The universe is the realized permutations of infinite choices in all possible combinations. From our perspective, it looks like we are progressing through time, and that time is "moving". Once we're outside of the universe - when we have transcended samsara and achieved nibbana - we exist in a realm of timelessness.
 

David1967

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Beware trying to fit Reality into the subjective perception of an ape whose brain's designed to deal with immediate problems of survival.

What if:
Time moved both forward and backward?
Events existed on a sort of endless film loop, running forever?

Very interesting. Would really like for you to expand on that.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Quantum mechanics is funny. Time's arrow doesn't necessarily flow inexorably forward, and cats can simultaneously be both alive and dead.
dunno.gif
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Time only exists because of change. If nothing changes then there's no flow of time, and I'm talking about change right down to the subatomic level. If there's only the minuteness of a change in an electron cloud, say, then time flows. So, is there such a state when absolutely nothing happens? It's been hypothesized that if the geometry of space is open, that is, negatively curved, and that heat death rules, then at the very end of the universe this is what could happen: there will be nothing left that can change, even among all the previous matter, dark matter, energy. and dark energy. This would mark the end of time, which some have roughly estimated to be in about
d4700e90b19b9ae1e3f0c49077041a08.png
years. The universe would not be eternal.

Going in the other direction into the singularity, we don't know what, if anything was happening. So, in as much nothing can be said of the state of affairs before the singularity came into existence---if, in fact, there even was such a thing---or what comprised the singularity itself, it's fair to say that because of our ignorance time began with the Big Bang. We can't say that the universe pre-existed. So, as closely as can be calculated, time has existed for 13.73 +/- 0.12 billion years.
 
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George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Time moves forward, not backward. Causality dictates that cause comes before effect, beginning before end. So, to have an eternity of past makes no sense. You would have an infinite number of causes, which were in turn effects of previous causes. This leaves you with a causeless reality, a series of effects without cause. Dominoes falling with no first domino.

The illusion of it making sense derives from looking at time backwards.

You are here at P. Looking ahead, it makes sense that time continues forever, no ending point, just effects causing more effects, and more, and more, continuous. No problem here, causality has nothing against effects becoming causes for more effects endlessly.

Here's where the illusion starts: looking backwards it may seem to make sense that time had always existed forever before hand. You can think back 3 billion years and just keep subtracting millions and millions, and even billions endlessly, because you are looking outward at it.

It's mathematically possible to keep subtracting centuries and centuries, but realistically impossible due to causality.

Because time moves forward, you must apply that to your vision of the timeline of existence if you want to test the accuracy of this notion that time had no beginning. But you can't. There is no starting point, you have nowhere to beginning the forward view of time. Jumping to some random point of time doesn't count because it just takes you to looking at the infinite history backwards again, drawing the same illusion.



A great noteworthy example: Imagine a boy who had never been born, who had always existed. Because you live from birth to death, and not the other way around, he'd have to have experienced an eternity of life already, but that doesn't make sense. How did he get to this point of his life if he had to live an endless amount of time to get there, considering eternity has no end? How could he have an end with no beginning? How could he exist if he never entered existence?

Another thought that if it did go back infinitely the laws of thermodynamics would say we would have reached some steady-state condition.

I'm sure the always existing universe people will have arguments for all this as the debate has been done many times in history.

Personally, I believe the universe as we know it started with the Big Bang and it is all a creation of Consciousness/God/Brahman.
 

Ralphg

Member
A great noteworthy example: Imagine a boy who had never been born, who had always existed. Because you live from birth to death, and not the other way around, he'd have to have experienced an eternity of life already, but that doesn't make sense. How did he get to this point of his life if he had to live an endless amount of time to get there, considering eternity has no end? How could he have an end with no beginning? How could he exist if he never entered existence?
Some believe this boy is called Lucifer (the 'Unborn' or Ao (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ao_(mythology)) and for Him to prove He is worthy 'to be seen' by God a Place (earth and universe) and Time were created. Following this line of thought the Universe (or maybe more Universes) and time have existed forever but it is unknown if it will continue to exist forever, since that depends on if He will ever 'be born'. If so that's when what we know as the Rapture will happen.
 
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sayak83

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Time moves forward, not backward. Causality dictates that cause comes before effect, beginning before end. So, to have an eternity of past makes no sense. You would have an infinite number of causes, which were in turn effects of previous causes. This leaves you with a causeless reality, a series of effects without cause. Dominoes falling with no first domino.

The illusion of it making sense derives from looking at time backwards.

You are here at P. Looking ahead, it makes sense that time continues forever, no ending point, just effects causing more effects, and more, and more, continuous. No problem here, causality has nothing against effects becoming causes for more effects endlessly.

Here's where the illusion starts: looking backwards it may seem to make sense that time had always existed forever before hand. You can think back 3 billion years and just keep subtracting millions and millions, and even billions endlessly, because you are looking outward at it.

It's mathematically possible to keep subtracting centuries and centuries, but realistically impossible due to causality.

Because time moves forward, you must apply that to your vision of the timeline of existence if you want to test the accuracy of this notion that time had no beginning. But you can't. There is no starting point, you have nowhere to beginning the forward view of time. Jumping to some random point of time doesn't count because it just takes you to looking at the infinite history backwards again, drawing the same illusion.



A great noteworthy example: Imagine a boy who had never been born, who had always existed. Because you live from birth to death, and not the other way around, he'd have to have experienced an eternity of life already, but that doesn't make sense. How did he get to this point of his life if he had to live an endless amount of time to get there, considering eternity has no end? How could he have an end with no beginning? How could he exist if he never entered existence?
Unless you find a mathematical paradox with an eternal past (there is not, since events in such a time-line can be easily mapped into the real number line) you have no case. Physics ceased to be intuitive over a 100 years ago. Something or the other always existed in some form or the other seems a perfectly rational hypothesis. Nothing itself need to exist eternally, only that something or the other is always there as far back as you go. And as regards to explanation, there are possibilities that the entire wavefunction of the universe need not be described using time as a parameter. Time is only a useful parameter when parts of the universe are explained separately from other parts.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Unless you find a mathematical paradox with an eternal past (there is not, since events in such a time-line can be easily mapped into the real number line) you have no case. Physics ceased to be intuitive over a 100 years ago. Something or the other always existed in some form or the other seems a perfectly rational hypothesis. Nothing itself need to exist eternally, only that something or the other is always there as far back as you go. And as regards to explanation, there are possibilities that the entire wavefunction of the universe need not be described using time as a parameter. Time is only a useful parameter when parts of the universe are explained separately from other parts.
Hmmm. . . . R. F. Streater, British physicist, and professor emeritus of Applied Mathematics at King's College London. seems to disagree.

"The idea of the wave-function of the universe is meaningless; we do not even know what variables it is supposed to be a function of. [...] We find the laws of Nature by reproducible experiments. The theory needs a cut, between the observer and the system, and the details of the apparatus should not appear in the theory of the system"
source
 

GoodbyeDave

Well-Known Member
When I read discussions like this, I remember all those 19th and 20th century philosophers who cut their coats from the latest scientifically fashionable cloth and who now seem so very dated.

Sum of Awe has a point. You have a choice:

1. The universe has a beginning and a cause.

2. The universe is uncaused.
This means that the Principle of Sufficient Reason is false. But belief in it is built into us - nobody actually believes that things can just happen for no reason at all - which suggests that it's a principle of the universe of which we are a part. Also, if you admit that things can exist and events occur without cause, you've just demolished the foundations of any sort of science.
 

Jonathan Ainsley Bain

Logical Positivist
The only way to solve the problem is with two dimensions of time.

Our universe had a beginning, much like a book or (better still) a computer game.
But time for the book or game is quite different from time for the author or programmer.

In the universe, time is linear and causal, but in the Cosmos, causality is the result of Creation.
In the mind of God, the laws of our physical universe are a subset of his imagination.

Just like a computer programmer makes numerous games with variations on the laws of physics,
so God can create multiple universes with a variety of natural laws.

But, I would venture, that just as the programmer must still adhere to logic if the game is to function,
so God is likewise expected to adhere to logic too.

Of course in our imagination we can imagine that which is illogical quite happily,
but we cannot manifest illogical things into physical existence.

You need to ask the question 'what caused causality' to appreciate this.
Of course, the only way for the question to be logical is with two different types of causality.
So it is more accurately phrased 'where does causality originate from?'

This is because if we claim that something caused causality,
then causality existed
before it existed.
This would be clearly illogical.

Thus it can only be deduced that causality itself was created or imagined.
 
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