Odinist Fellowship Threatens to Continue Protests until Demands are Met

Sanzbir said:

Huh?? Where?! I've read through the book's record of that time, and I'm fairly certain he's not in there, unless there's something I missed.

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The Encyclopedia Brittanica cites his mentioning in the ASC, but I can't find his name either. I've e-mailed them for clarification.

However, their records do state the following:

845 - The ship of King Ragnar Lothbrok of Sjaelland & Uppsala (Scandinavia) is blown off course and he lands in East Anglia. He is entertained at the Royal Court but internal politics leads to him being kidnapped and smuggled into Northumbria where he is executed in a pit of vipers.

865 - Death of King Aethelbert of Wessex. He is succeeded by his third son, Aethelred I. The 'Great Heathen Army' of Vikings, led by Princes Ivarr the Boneless and Halfdan Wide-Embrace of Sjaelland & Uppsala (Scandinavia), invades East Anglia (in revenge for the execution of their father, King Ragnar Lothbrok). King Edmund of East Anglia buys peace with a supply of horses.

Well what are your sources on motive.

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Historical accuracy of events and cultural representation. We've spun off track, but the origin of this debate remains; Ragnar Lothbrok has many mentionings, and is academically regarded as being a real person who did exist. On the other hand, the "blood eagle" has very dubious mention, and seems more to be a tale that continues to grow more and more gruesome with each telling. You even stated that it's likely a metaphor or exaggeration.

In the Saga, it's even said: "Ívar was then nearby, and he said that they should now bring about his life-leaving. 'Now is the time,' he said, 'to remember the manner of death which he inflicted on our father. Now a man who is most skilled in woodcarving shall mark an eagle on his back so precisely that the eagle shall redden with his blood.'" So even that suggests that they didn't carve out his lungs, but just carved a picture of an eagle in his back.

Ragnars Saga Loðbrókar. Swedish. Demon. God-Cows.

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Yeah, from what you posted it just looks like they're describing an auroch.

Why would you cite the Nibelungelied in this discussion?

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Relevant to the irrelevant mentioning of Atilla the Hun, and why I don't think he's mentioned in the Sagas.

Ragnars Saga Loðbrókar ok sona hans.

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The copy that I'm reading makes no mention of any of that. Only that Ragnar married Aslaug, named by some Randalin, and that they had four sons.

Source??

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Eyrbyggja Saga. As I said. But you say that we can't trust it, so... I don't know what else you want. And at best you're getting accounts that straddle history and legend - not mythology - which is pretty much every historical account from that time frame.

Sanzbir said:

Ralph Harrison, Director of Odinist Fellowship and leader of British pagans, had sent a letter to Justin Welby , Archbishop of Canterbury, demanding they 'return' two church buildings. Harrison claims the properties were stolen from pagans about 1,300 years back. Over 1,000 pagans are members of the Fellowship.

Thoughts??

Personally I find it a bit ridiculous, given the history of the region and Christians and Odinists in it.

I'm well versed in my genealogy, and I am descended from the Norse who came and raided England before settling down in Ireland and Iceland following the battle of Hafrsfjord that unified Norway (and expelled anyone who was against Harald Fairhair). And... with those Odinist ancestors of mine I can't really say that discrimination between these two religions was one sided.

One ancestor of mine carved a blood eagle into a petty king's back offering him as a sacrifice to Odin. He further went on to martyr an Anglo-Saxon Christian saint. Not to mention all the church-looting my ancestors did. It just seems like the discrimination went both ways, and that both sides should just let it go by now.

So should the church give the Odinists the land??

If so, should the Odinists apologize for my great-great-great-great-etc grandpa Ivar literally martyring Christian clergymen??

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Odinist fellowship may be considered to be a new religion. They may use historical information in their ideology, but there is no generational sequence here. They have no claim, but should be welcome to buy and build as they can afford.

These kind of Chinese like historical claims are pure nonsense, and should be laughed at by the media as the words of idiots and imbeciles. If someone happened to dig up on their property proof of their property having been a holy site for pagans 2 thousand years ago, try to go to court to get this property returned to that religious system. It is pure insanity.

Well, I'm seeing that their point is more a statement and demand of recognition, rather than acquisition of land and property. They're quoted as saying "The objective is just to get the Church to acknowledge that it has got a history of persecution when it comes to the Odinist religion (Heathenry/Ásatrú/Forn Sed) and it has to take stock of that and not just write it out of history."

The Ragin Pagan said:

Well, I'm seeing that their point is more a statement and demand of recognition, rather than acquisition of land and property. They're quoted as saying "The objective is just to get the Church to acknowledge that it has got a history of persecution when it comes to the Odinist religion (Heathenry/Ásatrú/Forn Sed) and it has to take stock of that and not just write it out of history."

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It still doesn't make sense to demand that property when plenty of others are similarly related to the same ancestors outside of the Fellowship which is a new religious movement whatever claim they may make to antiquity.

From what I'm gathering that's mostly to get attention, when the goal sought after is an official apology and recognition of past wrongs, similar to what has been given to various cultures and peoples in the past.

The Ragin Pagan said:

From what I'm gathering that's mostly to get attention, when the goal sought after is an official apology and recognition of past wrongs, similar to what has been given to various cultures and peoples in the past.

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But it is no longer a living culture.

Yes, it is.

The Ragin Pagan said:

Yes, it is.

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I may be mistaken. Is there a surviving living culture with them? I do not mean a reconstructed religion -- that is a modern creation.

The fellowship has no more claim to that property than any of the other people similarly related to those ancestors many of whom are likely Christian and descended from Christians. I do not discount that the church should repent and denounce what it did, but this Fellowship is trying to get stuff for free, play the victim, and thereby claiming a privileged status over other people descended from these ancestors who are not reconstructionists.

EverChanging said:

I may be mistaken. Is there a surviving living culture with them? I do not mean a reconstructed religion -- that is a modern creation.

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Yes, Contemporary religions of Heathenry like Asatru and Odinism are modern, only about 50 years old. The culture, however, survived through the Christianization of Scandinavia and Germania. It did this not only through preservation of the myths, legends and sagas, but through folk customs as well; the names of locations (I myself have lived near Thor's Mountain in Germany), cities, days, and even appropriated Christian myths and legends. Michael slaying the Dragon? That's Thor fighting Jormungandr. The festivals and celebrations remained important, as they were closely tied to agriculture. Very little about that changed, and it remained a common practice to talk about "Mother Earth" as a personified being. Tales like Snow White continued myths and the presence of Freyja, and Frau Holle of Frigga's winter presence.

I do not discount that the church should repent and denounce what it did, but this Fellowship is trying to get stuff for free, play the victim,

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I don't think so, at all. Because from what they said, all they're really looking to get is an apology from the Church about past cultural atrocities against Heathen culture. They're not looking to get anything for free, and that's hardly playing the victim to ask for a recognition of past wrongs that did happen, whether it was to their direct ancestors or not.

The Ragin Pagan said:

I don't think so, at all. Because from what they said, all they're really looking to get is an apology from the Church about past cultural atrocities against Heathen culture. They're not looking to get anything for free, and that's hardly playing the victim to ask for a recognition of past wrongs that did happen, whether it was to their direct ancestors or not.

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Then they should be more clear. They are demanding property as if it is theirs more so than various other similarly related people.

I don't see the point in protests, all they do is vocalize a cause to no avail. That tactic doesn't work, as has been proved repeatedly. My suggestion is that they take back what's theirs if they feel that it belongs to them. The Christians came into Europe and took temples and lands considered sacred, in some cases through the gradual process of conversion and in others by force. It makes sense that the Odinist Fellowship feels so entitled.