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  1. Clear

    JWs & The Bible

    Hi @nPeace nPeace said : "The use of the word arrival, still applies to being present." Yes, if someone arrived, it refers to someone who is present. If someone WILL arrive, it refers to a future presence after arrival. If someone arrived in the past, but is gone, it refers to a presence in...
  2. Clear

    Watchtower: Jesus is not "a god"!

    EXAMPLES DEMONSTRATING OESTES CLAIM IS INCORRECT You claim to read Greek “with comprehension”. Here are a few examples which demonstrate your claim is incorrect. : EXAMPLES FROM MILLIGAN In OGIS 383.60 (a mid 1st century b.c. document) a group remarks Χαρακτηρα μορφης εμης. The example...
  3. Clear

    Watchtower: Jesus is not "a god"!

    Hi @Oeste 1) MISREPRESENTING MILLIGAN (AND DELITSCH, AND ZODHIATES) Clear said : “Milligan pointed out that the word has been used as “exact representation” in later eras. His examples, conversely, show what the word actually meant anciently.” Oeste said : “Clear, we went through this...
  4. Clear

    Watchtower: Jesus is not "a god"!

    Clear said : "I claim the lone, uncontexted ancient Greek word “Χαρακτηρ” (eng “Character”) does not have any meaning beyond its base meaning without adding context." Oeste replied : "I think we can agree on this." Good. Oeste said : “No, you are incorrect. Zodhiates is not making such a...
  5. Clear

    Why the NT is Historically and Theologically not acceptable for Torath Mosheh Jews

    POST TWO OF TWO 3) REGARDING THE ORDER, FIRST A RABBINIC JEW CONFIRMS THE LACK OF TRADITIONS IN THE RABBINIC MOVEMENT AND SECONDLY WE COMPARE THIS LACK TO EARLIER TRADITIONS Harel13 asked : "Where are you going with this? " I am simply having you confirm to readers what traditions you...
  6. Clear

    Why the NT is Historically and Theologically not acceptable for Torath Mosheh Jews

    POST ONE OF TWO Hi @Harel13 1) REGARDING THE JEWISH CLAIM THAT IT IS A "CHRISTIAN VIEW" THAT "THE RABBINIC MOVEMENT CAME OUT OF NOWHERE". Harel13 said : “Your claim that "the Rabbinic Movement" came out of nowhere is a Christian view. “ (post #548) Clear responded : "You are misquoting me...
  7. Clear

    Watchtower: Jesus is not "a god"!

    Hi @Oeste You misrepresent my position. I claim the lone, uncontexted ancient Greek word “Χαρακτηρ” (eng “Character”) does not have any meaning beyond its base meaning without adding context. It does not mean “exact Character” unless you add context to the lone, base word "Character". For...
  8. Clear

    Why the NT is Historically and Theologically not acceptable for Torath Mosheh Jews

    Hi @Harel13 1) REGARDING THE JEWISH CLAIM THAT IT IS A "CHRISTIAN VIEW" THAT "THE RABBINIC MOVEMENT CAME OUT OF NOWHERE". Harel13 said : “Your claim that "the Rabbinic Movement" came out of nowhere is a Christian view. “ (post #548) Clear responded : "You are misquoting me. I did not say...
  9. Clear

    Why the NT is Historically and Theologically not acceptable for Torath Mosheh Jews

    Hi @Harel13 1) REGARDING THE JEWISH CLAIM THAT IT IS A "CHRISTIAN VIEW" THAT "THE RABBINIC MOVEMENT CAME OUT OF NOWHERE". Harel13 said : “Your claim that "the Rabbinic Movement" came out of nowhere is a Christian view. “ (post #548) Clear responded : "You are misquoting me. I did not say...
  10. Clear

    Why the NT is Historically and Theologically not acceptable for Torath Mosheh Jews

    Hi @Harel13 (I will try to remember to tag or quote you so you know I have responded - thank you for the reminder). Harel13 said : “Your claim that "the Rabbinic Movement" came out of nowhere is a Christian view. “ (post #548) Clear responded : "You are misquoting me. I did not say that the...
  11. Clear

    JWs & The Bible

    Hi @nPeace The use of παρουσια in Judith referring to Judith causing a commotion upon her “arriving” at the camp of Holofernes is from Judith 10:18 “…και εγενετο σθνδρομε εν παση τη παρεμβολη διεβοηθη γαρ εις τα σκηνωματα η παρουσια αυτης...” The reference to Dionysia is originally from...
  12. Clear

    Why the NT is Historically and Theologically not acceptable for Torath Mosheh Jews

    Hi Harel13 Harel13 said : “Your claim that "the Rabbinic Movement" came out of nowhere is a Christian view. “ You are misquoting me. I did not say that the Rabbinic Movement came out of “nowhere”. Like most movements, Judaism had schisms. The latter rabbinic movement is simply a schism of...
  13. Clear

    JWs & The Bible

    Clear said : "I did not want to interrupt your discussion other than to point out that I like both of your last points re the Parousia (παρουσια) of Jesus as it applies to his second coming. Παρουσια in the early literature was used both in the sense of a "presence" and an "arrival" and it is...
  14. Clear

    Watchtower: Jesus is not "a god"!

    Hi @Oeste Oeste said : “No Clear. I do not believe we are having a religious debate.” it is Good you both understand and admit this. Since it is not a religious discussion, It is irrelevant what you or Delitsch or Milligan or I believe about religion when the actual discussion is ancient Greek...
  15. Clear

    JWs & The Bible

    Hi @nPeace nPeace said : "Hi Clear. Brian and I are in disagreement on the usage of parousia in the text we were considering, so I am not sure how we can be both correct... but thanks for sharing your thoughts" (post #179) My example of ancient usage of the term was specifically referring to...
  16. Clear

    JWs & The Bible

    Hi @nPeace and @Brian2 I did not want to interrupt your discussion other than to point out that I like both of your last points re the Parousia (παρουσια) of Jesus as it applies to his second coming. Παρουσια in the early literature was used both in the sense of a "presence" and an "arrival"...
  17. Clear

    Genesis 1:1 Bere****h bara... "In the Beginning"

    Hi @ToGodorNottoGod The O.P. is a very interesting and insightful post I think that the era before creation Ex Nihilo was adopted is, historically, a more interesting period. People tend to think of the ancients as ignorant and unsophisticated but in fact, their theology was often more...
  18. Clear

    Why the NT is Historically and Theologically not acceptable for Torath Mosheh Jews

    Clear said (continued ) POST TWO OF TWO HISTORICAL LITERATURE CONFIRMS BOTH THE MESSIANIC HISTORY AND THE JEWISH HISTORIES ON THESE POINTS. These reasons (and more reasons) for God punishing Israel with loss of the temple, loss of a fully functioning priesthood; loss of revelation; loss of...
  19. Clear

    Why the NT is Historically and Theologically not acceptable for Torath Mosheh Jews

    Clear said : "POST ONE OF TWO REGARDING THE JEWISH CLAIM THAT JESUS THE MESSIAH SUPPORTED THE PHARISEES AND THE SCRIBES AND THEIR TEXT @2ndpillar claimed : “Apparently, according to Jeremiah 8:8, the scribes of the Jews, whose writings are found in the different Talmuds, can make the Law into...
  20. Clear

    Why the NT is Historically and Theologically not acceptable for Torath Mosheh Jews

    POST TWO OF TWO HISTORICAL LITERATURE CONFIRMS BOTH THE MESSIANIC HISTORY AND THE JEWISH HISTORIES ON THESE POINTS. These reasons (and more reasons) for God punishing Israel with loss of the temple, loss of a fully functioning priesthood; loss of revelation; loss of prophets and prophetic...
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