‘Free will’ is not an excuse for God allowing atrocities.

[clara17]

Notice all items in this are real, unlike religious concepts.

Actually no, they're exactly like religion, they set up fancy buildings
collect enormous sums of money from their parishioners, live in comfort and luxury while
the majority of their followers don't, and don't take kindly to being questioned.

Academia has a history of being ethical and doing credible work.

I mean, obviously this is satirical, right?

The state id a democracy, so if a member of the state is corrupt, like a previous president, the people throw them out so our trust, faith, can be maintained.

I'm assuming you mean in the U.S. And no, we dont vote in 98% of the massive, uncontrollable, staggering, drunken, bloated "state" and have no means of removing any of it short of mass insurrection.

But in what way are religious concepts credible from an objective and rational way, which is very important for modern people and standards orf thought?

I don't know which concepts you have in mind. I personally find the Bible, while often difficult to understand, to the most credible source of information to explain the things no person has ever able to explain.
Religion however, I don't participate in, since,
if the words in the Bible are true then religion is unnecessary.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Is your friend correct in doing nothing?

It's like a broken record .. "why does G-d allow us to do evil things, and not stop us?"

Why is reality, reality?
Your answer is that you don't know.

My answer is that there is an ultimate purpose.
As you don't wish to listen to G-d, you construct seemingly smart arguments .. just like satan did to convince Adam and Eve to "eat the apple".

I'm not drinking from your poisoned well.
I enjoin good and advise against evil.
If anybody commits evil, it will eventually catch up with them.

 

[Trailblazer]

If your best friend knows on Monday that you intend to murder your spouse on Thursday, but she doesn't do anything to stop you, or call your spouse, or call the police, or anything, and just lets it happen, there is a serious moral failure on your friend's part. The person might even be held criminally liable in some places. The issue isn't that you intend to murder, it's that someone could have stopped you and didn't. Your friend insists she didn't have any place to interfere with your free will to commit whatever acts you want. Is your friend correct in doing nothing?

Your friend should have interceded, because humans are morally responsible to act on behalf of other humans.

God is under no obligation to interfere with human free will choices, nothing could be more absurd. God is not Superman. God reveals the teachings and always that humans need to know how to behave morally, so God did His due diligence. Humans are fully responsible for their own moral choices because they have free will. Every court of law recognizes that because it is the truth.

Free WIll, Determinism, and the Criminal Justice System

God is not a human being, so God is not subject to morality. God is all-good by nature and God alone knows what is good for humans so God sets the moral standards for humans. God is not subject to moral standards since God is not human. To compare a human being to God and expect God to act like a human being is expected to act under similar circumstances is completely illogical. It is the fallacy of false equivalence because God is not equivalent to a human being.

False equivalence is a logical fallacy in which an equivalence is drawn between two subjects based on flawed or false reasoning. This fallacy is categorized as a fallacy of inconsistency.[1] A colloquial expression of false equivalency is "comparing apples and oranges".

This fallacy is committed when one shared trait between two subjects is assumed to show equivalence, especially in order of magnitude, when equivalence is not necessarily the logical result.[2] False equivalence is a common result when an anecdotal similarity is pointed out as equal, but the claim of equivalence doesn't bear scrutiny because the similarity is based on oversimplification or ignorance of additional factors.
False equivalence - Wikipedia

 

[Trailblazer]

It's like a broken record .. "why does G-d allow us to do evil things, and not stop us?"

Why is reality, reality?
Your answer is that you don't know.

My answer is that there is an ultimate purpose.

And my answer is that God is under no obligation to play Superman.

"Oh, but God is omnipotent so God can do anything!" doesn't cut it because an omnipotent God only does what He chooses to do.

However, the main point I would like to make is that God revealed Laws in every religion so that humans would have moral guidance, and as such humans are responsible for ALL their own moral choices. Why should God intercede so humans won't have to be responsible for their own moral choices? That is illogical.

“God hath in that Book, and by His behest, decreed as lawful whatsoever He hath pleased to decree, and hath, through the power of His sovereign might, forbidden whatsoever He elected to forbid. To this testifieth the text of that Book. Will ye not bear witness? Men, however, have wittingly broken His law. Is such a behavior to be attributed to God, or to their proper selves? Be fair in your judgment. Every good thing is of God, and every evil thing is from yourselves. Will ye not comprehend? This same truth hath been revealed in all the Scriptures, if ye be of them that understand.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 149-150

 

[muhammad_isa]

Why should God intercede so humans won't have to be responsible for their own moral choices? That is illogical.

Yes. I would say so.

 

[F1fan]

Your friend should have interceded, because humans are morally responsible to act on behalf of other humans.

God is under no obligation to interfere with human free will choices, nothing could be more absurd.

So you your mind humans are more morally accountable than God. So God can be a criminal and you just have to accept it. And how can a God judge anyone for immorality of it doesn't have any moral accountability itself? There goes any sort of moral absolute.

God is not Superman.

Why does God have to be a superman just to fool the same morals humans do? You make God sound like a decrepit being that really struggles to be moral at the basic human standards.

God reveals the teachings and always that humans need to know how to behave morally, so God did His due diligence.

No, some humans claim to be Messengers of God, and people like you chose to believe them. They could be frauds. You could be mistaken.

Humans are fully responsible for their own moral choices because they have free will.

Which is why atheists don't use ideas of Gods to hide their accountability behind. After all, if your God can let children die due to not intervening, then why should you?

Every court of law recognizes that because it is the truth.

Courts have to deal with facts, and religious beliefs are not facts.

 

[DNB]

That is your god, who is apparently so restricted he can't be everywhere, including the rain.
That is not my gods.

That's fine, let's be clear then, we do not worship the same Entity.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

That's fine, let's be clear then, we do not worship the same Entity.

That's been a given this entire discussion. I don't even worship an entity. They are secure enough in character to not need it.

 

[F1fan]

It's like a broken record .. "why does G-d allow us to do evil things, and not stop us?"

Because no God exists the way most people believe. It is theists who claims God is loving, but then we observe a universe where a God could intervene, but doesn't. Any average decent human would intervene to save other people, but this God does not.

Either it exists and believers like yourself are wrong about it being loving, or it is powerless, or some other thing that is inconsistent with what we observe of reality. In any event, Abrahamic theists are surely wrong about some elements of their various concepts of the "one true God".

My answer is that there is an ultimate purpose.

Really, what it is it? For something as important as an "ultimate purpose" you didn't;t bother mentioning it. It's almost as if it is absurd, or you made it up, or you have no such idea and you are bluffing. In any event, your failure too mention suggests you aren't convinced or confident.

As you don't wish to listen to G-d,

There are no Gods to listen to. there are books. there are theists who claims all sorts of different things, but no Gods.

...you construct seemingly smart arguments .. just like satan did to convince Adam and Eve to "eat the apple".

Except I'm real, and use my capacity for reason to its fullest extent.

I'm not drinking from your poisoned well.
I enjoin good and advise against evil.
If anybody commits evil, it will eventually catch up with them.

See how you have to vilify your opponent to make it easier to not debate in good faith? If I'm evil, and you are righteous, you don't have to think about these issues. And can ignore any humility that allows you the freedom to consider the possibility you might be mistaken.

 

[muhammad_isa]

If I'm evil, and you are righteous, you don't have to think about these issues.

Are you evil?
I certainly don't claim to be righteous .. but I try to be.

"Those who do not judge by what G-d has revealed, then they are the wrongdoers"
-Qur'an-

I believe what G-d has revealed. I see the truth in the arguments in the Qur'an.
Others, apparently do not. Yes, that simple fact causes division.
It is part of reality.

 

[Trailblazer]

So you your mind humans are more morally accountable than God.

Humans are more morally accountable than God since God is not morally accountable AT ALL.

 

[Trailblazer]

Which is why atheists don't use ideas of Gods to hide their accountability behind.

Neither do believers. Believers are fully accountable to God and the secular laws.

Courts have to deal with facts, and religious beliefs are not facts.

Neither are atheist beliefs.

 

[DNB]

That's been a given this entire discussion. I don't even worship an entity. They are secure enough in character to not need it.

My God deserves it, He doesn't need it. He can justifiably annihilate us anytime that He wants, and thus with no one to worship Him, neither His glory nor supremacy will be diminished.

 

[Ashoka]

My God deserves it, He doesn't need it. He can justifiably annihilate us anytime that He wants, and thus with no one to worship Him, neither His glory nor supremacy will be diminished.

Why do you believe this? Why would you want to? Who wants to believe in a monster god that threatens to kill, and does kill his own creation? And then demand worship?

Don't you think that maybe there is something wrong with that?

 

[F1fan]

Neither do believers. Believers are fully accountable to God and the secular laws.

According to you, it could be an immoral God since it has no standards to follow.

Neither are atheist beliefs.

First, you're admitting theists' beliefs are not factual, good for you.

Second, what atheists' beliefs are you referring to that are not factual?

 

[DNB]

Why do you believe this? Why would you want to? Who wants to believe in a monster god that threatens to kill, and does kill his own creation? And then demand worship?

Don't you think that maybe there is something wrong with that?

It was hypothetical. She said he needs worship, i said He doesn't. ...and, yes, we all deserve to die anyhow.

 

[Ashoka]

It was hypothetical. She said he needs worship, i said He doesn't. ...and, yes, we all deserve to die anyhow.

What a bleak way of looking at life.

 

[F1fan]

My God deserves it, He doesn't need it. He can justifiably annihilate us anytime that He wants, and thus with no one to worship Him, neither His glory nor supremacy will be diminished.

Kinda like we humans are just an ant farm. Is that why your god allows little children to be born with genetic defects and cancers?

 

[F1fan]

Are you evil?

If you think I'm evil because i'm not convinced any of the many, many religious claims I've heard fallible humans claim are true, then I'd question what gives you the right and authority to judge my free will. If you claim it's your God, then you had better demonstrate that your God exists outside of your imagination. If you can't, then I win. I still have my freedom.

I certainly don't claim to be righteous .. but I try to be.

That is a spiritually healthy attitude. Humility is the greatest of all virtues.

I believe what G-d has revealed.

Or you believe what others have told you is revealed from God. How would know if they were being honest?

I see the truth in the arguments in the Qur'an.

Then that is your judgment, and that renders you your own moral authority. You don't need to believe it's a God.

Others, apparently do not. Yes, that simple fact causes division.
It is part of reality.

That is the dilemma of many, many different religions and interpretations. No final truth or version.

BTW, are you Sunni or Shiite?

 

[PruePhillip]

Who punished God’s sins?

What sins?