‘Free will’ is not an excuse for God allowing atrocities.

[YoursTrue]

Words have meanings. A decree is an order for something to happen.

So you accept that whatever "choices" we make they cannot alter the fate that god has decreed.

I notice that rather than address the specific points I raised, you just resorted to "that can't be!". Let's try again. Answer each question...

1. If Allah has decreed that a person will go to paradise, can that person change their fate by their actions? Yes or no?
2. Is the outcome of all events determined by Allah's decree? Yes or no?

Hope I'm not interfering with this conversation, but I'd like to mention that decrees were given to the Israelites. They did not always obey.

 

[QuestioningMind]

What I agree with is the God is God and is the Supreme Ruler of the universe. i believe that Adam and Eve were real people. They were given a choice. Before we might discuss logistics of that, it is helpful to understand that if a person jumps off a building willfully, it doesn't mean that action is predestined by God. If you recall, Jesus was told by the devil to jump off the cliff because he cited from the Bible re: the Messiah that he wouldn't get hurt. Jesus refused and told Satan to get away from him. Interestingly, the Devil left Jesus for a while. Jesus did not jump off the cliff.

Is there a reason why you refuse to directly answer the question posed in my OP?

 

[YoursTrue]

Is there a reason why you refuse to directly answer the question posed in my OP?

I did. But sometimes people don't see the answer.

 

[QuestioningMind]

I did. But sometimes people don't see the answer.

I see... and is there some reason why you want to keep it a secret? Or because I failed to see it the first time I'm I simply not worthy?

 

[YoursTrue]

I see... and is there some reason why you want to keep it a secret? Or because I failed to see it the first time I'm I simply not worthy?

Not at all. Just keep reading and following about procaryotes and how they came about? Look, everybody's different.

 

[QuestioningMind]

Not at all. Just keep reading and following about procaryotes and how they came about? Look, everybody's different.

Apparently we're so different that you're incapable of clarifying what you mean. Either that or you don't think I'm worth making the effort. And here I thought we were trying to honestly communicate. My mistake.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Bingo!
So which is it? Does Allah determine the outcome of all events by decree, or do we determine them through free will?
It can't be both.

It can't?

 

[KWED]

It can't?

Can't see how it could be.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No, I mean that to blame God for Edwards opinion, you should've know better that his views were not necessarily under the auspices of God.

So you reject the idea of God's sovereignty, then. What else in this world do you think isn't under the auspices of God?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Can't see how it could be.

What do you think "free will" means?

I think it refers to the idea that we can choose to act on our desires or not. Things I think it doesn't mean:

- the ability to choose what we desire
- the physical capacity to carry out our intended acts.

Hopefully we're generally on the same page on this.

There's a quote from Boss Tweed, the state senator who ran Tammany Hall in the 19th Century:

"I don't care who does the electing, so long as I get to do the nominating."

IOW, you can still control the outcome of a free choice (i.e. an election) without interfering with free will itself (i.e. the vote) as long as you control the inputs that free will acts upon (i.e. who gets on the ballot).

That's where I'm coming from.

 

[KWED]

What do you think "free will" means?

I know what free will means. But if god determines the outcome of all events by decree, then we have no free will.
Now, if god only determines certain events, then we have free will in those he doesn't determine.

The other issue is infallible omniscience. If every action and decision has to correspond to the one god already knows we will make, then they are all inevitable so any sense of free will is merely illusory.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I know what free will means.

Okay - what do you think it means?

But if god determines the outcome of all events by decree, then we have no free will.
Now, if god only determines certain events, then we have free will in those he doesn't determine.

So there's no room in your worldview for the possibility that free will behaves predictably?

The other issue is infallible omniscience. If every action and decision has to correspond to the one god already knows we will make, then they are all inevitable so any sense of free will is merely illusory.

... which is quite possible. It's no skin off my nose if theistic worldviews end up contradicting themselves.

 

[muhammad_isa]

The other issue is infallible omniscience. If every action and decision has to correspond to the one god already knows we will make, then they are all inevitable so any sense of free will is merely illusory.

One could argue that the passing of time is illusory. [ it's relative ]

 

[YoursTrue]

I know what free will means. But if god determines the outcome of all events by decree, then we have no free will.
Now, if god only determines certain events, then we have free will in those he doesn't determine.

The other issue is infallible omniscience. If every action and decision has to correspond to the one god already knows we will make, then they are all inevitable so any sense of free will is merely illusory.

When I think of this question I am reminded of Jesus' reply to Satan in the wilderness. Satan told him to jump off the cliff. Jesus refused because he said one was not to put the Almighty God to the test. Therefore he would not give in to Satanic devices. (Matthew chapter 4 NIV)
"Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6 “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:
“‘He will command his angels concerning you,
and they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’”
7 Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’”
So Jesus had free will, but he reasoned properly about his relationship to God.

 

[DNB]

So you reject the idea of God's sovereignty, then. What else in this world do you think isn't under the auspices of God?

So, you like to take things out of context?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

So, you like to take things out of context?

If you'd like to rephrase what you said to reflect your views better, go right ahead.

 

[KWED]

When I think of this question I am reminded of Jesus' reply to Satan in the wilderness. Satan told him to jump off the cliff. Jesus refused because he said one was not to put the Almighty God to the test. Therefore he would not give in to Satanic devices. (Matthew chapter 4 NIV)
"Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6 “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:
“‘He will command his angels concerning you,
and they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’”
7 Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’”
So Jesus had free will, but he reasoned properly about his relationship to God.

If god had predestined that Jesus would refuse Satan's challenge, Jesus would have had no choice in the matter.
If god had infallible foreknowledge that Jesus would not jump, Jesus would not have been able to choose to jump.

Presenting stories of people appearing to make choices is meaningless if those are not actually choices but predetermined actions.

 

[KWED]

One could argue that the passing of time is illusory. [ it's relative ]

"Relative" and "illusory" are different concepts.

But if you are going to argue that our perception of reality is actually an illusion, then that asks far more questions than it would answer.

 

[KWED]

Okay - what do you think it means?

It depends on the context, but in this instance it is the ability to actually make a choice when presented with options, and therefore be responsible for the outcomes of those choices.

So there's no room in your worldview for the possibility that free will behaves predictably?

I was not talking about my worldview.

... which is quite possible. It's no skin off my nose if theistic worldviews end up contradicting themselves.

It kinda important given that the idea is central to the doctrine of the two main religions, and informs their views on the justification of punishment. If people believe that an outgroup deserves terrible punishment, it can lead to real-world consequences, so it's worth pointing out that their position is not justified.
Also fun to watch them try to resolve the paradox.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..in this instance it is the ability to actually make a choice when presented with options, and therefore be responsible for the outcomes of those choices.

Exactly right.
Whatever you might think about the possibility of G-d knowing what we will choose is irrelevant to that. If you think it is not possible for G-d to know what we will freely choose [by some unknown means], then that is the issue .. and not whether we are responsible for our actions.

Also fun to watch them try to resolve the paradox.

Life is more serious than that. We are responsible for our actions.
If you can't make sense of ominiscience, while retaining free-will, then you can't understand it .. that's fine .. but I can understand.