‘Free will’ is not an excuse for God allowing atrocities.

[YoursTrue]

The Jews also have their One and that was Moses. Jews believe they have the only true religion and they reject every Messenger of God that came after Moses.

Actually, some rejected Moses, didn't they?

 

[F1fan]

The Jews also have their One and that was Moses. Jews believe they have the only true religion and they reject every Messenger of God that came after Moses.

Well Moses delivered the Israelites out of Egypt. They still had the Messiah as an open question after that.

But you do make a good point. And you make another good point that they reject all messengers after Moses. They don't recognize Jesus as the Messiah.

 

[YoursTrue]

I'm just simply asking.
If people had no free will to chose, who would tell them...for example what their favorite color is? What their favorite food is?

People would be like programmed robots awaiting to be told orders.

ok now that's interesting. I was raised on certain foods. Within my culture. When I got older and ventured out, I tried different types of food. I like some and am not too fond of others.

 

[muhammad_isa]

If a God can break its own standards of good and moral then there is no absolute morality. No flawed mortal wants to be judged by a god that breaks the rules,.

That's totally wrong.

Can G-d commit adultery, for example?
The answer is no, unless you think that G-d is a man with a beard that hides on another planet.

G-d gives human beings guidance on how we should conduct human affairs.
It's G-d's intentions that are Holy. What authority has a human being got to tell "the ultimate judge" what He should or should not be doing?

Answer: none whatsoever. Your hypothetical rhetoric will get you nowhere. If G-d does not exist, you won't be judged. If G-d does exist, there is nothing that you can do to change it.
If G-d is evil, we've all had it.

However, G-d is not evil. That is only the accusations of the envious and proud.

 

[F1fan]

God set up the death sentence for Adam and Eve. Now let's be honest. It's obvious that those believing that evolution is why things are alive on the earth also believe we die because that's the way it is.

Well, that's abiogenesis, not evolution. But who's counting?

But Adam & Eve's son Cain killed Abel. Right away. The first children, one killed the other. God warned Cain, but Cain didn't listen.

That's OK because where did their wives from?

 

[Trailblazer]

Actually, some rejected Moses, didn't they?

I don't know, maybe so.

 

[F1fan]

That's totally wrong.

Can G-d commit adultery, for example?

Sure. If your God is male and married, and then cheats. Why can't an all powerful God get married and then cheat?

The answer is no, unless you think that G-d is a man with a beard that hides on another planet.

The Abrahamic tradition of God is that it is male. If you want to assert God is genderless, well that is very liberal and progressive.

G-d gives human beings guidance on how we should conduct human affairs.

Then why do so many believers through history commit murder, theft, cheat, lie, etc.? Is it because God has no moral standard for itself and that is the advice? That actually makes sense.

It's G-d's intentions that are Holy. What authority has a human being got to tell "the ultimate judge" what He should or should not be doing?

It is that a God is Holy and has to set a standard for humans that renders itself dutybound to BE that standard. A corrupt God will only inspire its followers to be corrupt.

Answer: none whatsoever. Your hypothetical rhetoric will get you nowhere. If G-d does not exist, you won't be judged. If G-d does exist, there is nothing that you can do to change it.

Thus far in human history no can provide evidence that any gods exit outside of human imagination, so we non-believers have little to worry about. It's not like we are getting cancer like some little children do.

If G-d is evil, we've all had it.

Wait till you get cancer. Or maybe you won't. There is no rhyme or reason for the lottery of life, almost as if no God exists.

However, G-d is not evil. That is only the accusations of the envious and proud.

Then God better behave itself.

But still how do you think little kids end up with defects and cancers? They live in the world God created, yes? These kids get no miracles. Explain. How hard would it be for a moral and loving God to say: Kids don't get cancer? Isn't that what you would do? Your child? Your nephew? Your neighbor's kids has cancer, wouldn't you save it if you had the power?

 

[YoursTrue]

I don't know, maybe so.

The Bible says so. That's why the ground opened up and swallowed the contingent in the wilderness that was against Moses. If you read Numbers 16, you will see the account of Korah and his followers who stood against Moses and his brother, Aaron.

 

[Lazy Old Devil]

Why is reality the way it is?
Do you think it is all evil?

That is the impression you give by asking such a question.

No, I wasn't suggesting reality is all evil. Not sure why you got that impression...

 

[muhammad_isa]

The Abrahamic tradition of God is that it is male..

No. Some people get this idea from Jesus being G-d, or because of language issues mean "He" is used rather than "it".

Jesus was a Jew and believed as in the OT that G-d created all the creatures, and hence male and female.
G-d does not procreate. This should be obvious from the fact that He is eternal. The Abrahamic faith is not polytheistic.

Then why do so many believers through history commit murder, theft, cheat, lie, etc.?

Because it is in our nature to love wealth and power, and are often prepared to lie and cheat to obtain it.
Remembering G-d is prescribed so that we may ward off evil.
Even then, there is none that do not sin.

They live in the world God created, yes? These kids get no miracles. Explain. How hard would it be for a moral and loving God to say: Kids don't get cancer? Isn't that what you would do? Your child? Your nephew? Your neighbor's kids has cancer, wouldn't you save it if you had the power?

Pointless questions, as far as I'm concerned.
Reality is reality.

You give the impression that reality is evil, and there is nobody in the world that is having "a good time".
I doubt that very much.
Look at the flowers, and not the weeds.

 

[night912]

Baha’is accept all the other religions so there’s no giving up of one’s previous faith. When one becomes a Baha’i he accepts all the religions.

So to the majority, if not all, who becomes baha'i, it's necessary for them to give up their previous faith. If their previous religion said that their's is the true religion, then it's required for them to give up their previous faith before they can even be a baha'i.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You are just playing with words.

What is good for us, does not apply to G-d as He is not a human being.
It does not follow that G-d cannot have attributes of His own.
eg. He is Holy

Sounds like you're saying that God has different standards for goodness than humans do.

@Trailblazer has said that she doesn't think any standards apply to God at all.

Do you see how these two positions are different?

 

[DNB]

I'm still not sure if you agree with the title of the thread or not. Are you saying you think god cannot intervene due to the fact that they have free will or do you think he has the ability to intervene, but chooses not to because it would interfere with his test results?

Of course God can intervene, as far as His omnipotence, sovereignty and supremacy are concerned. But, in regard to His divine wisdom, what purpose would it serve: (a) prolong the inevitable, (b) spare someone from death (i.e. hell on earth), (c) give the impression that God does not have something better in store for those who love Him (as opposed to this cesspool called earth), etc...?

 

[loverofhumanity]

This strikes me as lip service. You are one of three Baha'i believers that I know of on this forum and all three of you are pretty aggressive in posting quotes and that your perspective of things is absolute. There's a real lack of humility and sincere openness. You still avoided my question that asked if you would give up your religious beliefs for global peace. You are really resistance to that, even as a hypothetical. It strikes me as fishy somehow. It seems to me your world peace comes from everyone converting to Baha'i. Anything less will be global conflict as we are used to it. I don't know how you accomplish that, your prophets don't offer any methods.


This is pretty much a pattern in the Abrahamic traditions. Except for jews all the religions have their One. You have yours. I don't see any realistic method for Baha'i to convince any other major religious believers to abandon their prophet and saviors for your version. Why would they?


A non-religious approach would be smart and the best way to attract more people. I don't see any practical method to make that happen.

We Baha’is believe world peace will be established without religion. So we encourage whatever fosters peace. Global peace, we believe, will be initially established by people who are not Baha’is. That’s as clear as I can get.

Our job is to foster love and brotherhood between people and help eliminate prejudices. Our main teaching is the oneness and equality of all humanity.

The initial peace that will be established will be just no war. But prejudices and hatreds will still be very much alive.

Baha’is are trying to create love and unity between the different races, religions and nationalities. When that is achieved which will likely take hundreds of years, it is called the Most Great Peace because it is not just an end to war but the beginning of the brotherhood and sisterhood of humanity.

Even hypothetically I would not give up my belief in Baha’u’llah for all the treasures in the universe because His Cause embraces all things including peace. I can’t give you the answer you want because peace by itself without a spiritual dimension is, we believe, unsustainable for a lengthy period of time. Eventually the same old hatreds and prejudices would resurface resulting in wars again.

So peace, if it is to be sustainable must have a spiritual dimension if it is to be lasting and religion can best provide that.

Im sorry you feel that way but I am open and honest and the quotes really are the way we often feel about a topic. A lot of my beliefs Baha’u’llah has already expressed them in Words that describe exactly the meaning I am trying to convey.

We are here to learn. I learn from everyone usually about my own inadequacy and I appreciate you pointing out mistakes that you see that I probably can’t. But I’m trying, however, I’m far from a good communicator but I enjoy talking with you.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

Okay... so you take the 'It's all part of god's plan' point of view... that we'll never understand the big picture so we should just forget about it and move on. Thanks for sharing.

Actually no. I never said forget about it and move. What I wrote is the opposite of that. I also never stated that the sitautions you stated were a part of a plan of a god. I also never stated that "we" will never understand. Actually, I wrote the opposite of that.

I gave several examples of how Jewish sources talk about looking at the bigger picture when making judgement calls. I.e. look at all of the facts around the situation and be specific is one of the starting points.

For example, several thousand years ago it was not known exactly what it was like on the surface of Mars. Humans could have simply said, "We don't know and we don't have the ability to know of physically find out so let's forgot about that, accept the current reality, and move on." Yet, humans did not forget about it and move on. Instead humans constantly developed scientifically until rovers could be sent to Mars to check what is there. One day it may be possible for humans to actually go to mars and one day it may be possible for humans to live there.

The possiblitiy for all of this was always there, the materials to build the techology to do so was always there, and the ability to focus on such a goal was always there. Once certain humans developed the will power, harnessed the necessary knowledge, focused on the goal, and got funding for it the ability to do what seemed previously impossible took place. I.e. humans developed themselves to see a part of the "big picture" and took work, focus, and realizing that there is a bigger picture. Thus, the development of science and reason are ways of seeing the bigger picture - which is something Jewish sources have been stating for thousands of years.

The same applies to all aspects of human, including your examples.

Further, from a Jewish perspective the plan is known. It is what mentioned in the list I wrote earlier. I will shorten it for you here.

1. 7 Mitzvoth/Commandments/Basiic laws for the nations. 613 Mitzvoth for Jews.
2. Reality was created for the benefit of humanity.
3. We can choose between the benefits, that come from holding by #1 or we can reject the benefits.
   • Accepting or rejecting # 1have consequences personally and for societies.

Knowing the above, from a Jewish perspective, Hashem gave humanity the ability to prevent, stop, judge, and develop itself beyond the situations you mentioned. Yet, if a large portion of humanity doesn't want that then there are consequences personaly and individually. I.e. from a Jewish perspective soceieties and individuals were already given the tools to prevent, stop, judge, and develop itself beyond the sitautions you mentioned.

Lastly, humans as whole would also have to decide if they want the Creator at the level you mentioned. I.e. the intervention would have to be intervention across the board any crime, hurt, pain, slander, etc. in order for it to be fair and balenced. Yet, if humans have the tools to do this why does one need a "god" to what humans aleady have the power to do? What happens if the majority of humans, in principle and in application, don't what you suggested? Should it be forced on humanity and if so who gets to decide they want a "god" to do so?

 

[rational experiences]

No, I do not agree because God needs no excuses for anything He does or does not do since God cannot ever make any mistakes since God is infallible.

Man's own only father first non sexual man who had sex to be a human father was spiritual.

Not a theist.
Not a scientist.

Man's interfered with by AI machine feedback memory of his own human self baby man.

You make comments about your origin man self image that you ignored as your advisor. Not a theist. Not a scientist.

You are only a human one self and biological conscious of your self.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Of course God can intervene, as far as His omnipotence, sovereignty and supremacy are concerned. But, in regard to His divine wisdom, what purpose would it serve: (a) prolong the inevitable, (b) spare someone from death (i.e. hell on earth), (c) give the impression that God does not have something better in store for those who love Him (as opposed to this cesspool called earth), etc...?

C is why society has been getting better the further we move away from Jehovah. His followers often don't focus on making a better world because they're too focused on dying amd what might come next. Add in that it's "gods will," and no wonder secular institutions and ideologies took the helm. Someone has to make the world a better place. Lots of Christians just aren't interested in doing that.

 

[DNB]

C is why society has been getting better the further we move away from Jehovah. His followers often don't focus on making a better world because they're too focused on dying amd what might come next. Add in that it's "gods will," and no wonder secular institutions and ideologies took the helm. Someone has to make the world a better place. Lots of Christians just aren't interested in doing that.

God is not in the rain, God created the rain.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

God is not in the rain, God created the rain.

If god is omnipresent why wouldn't god be in the rain?

 

[Trailblazer]

Sounds like you're saying that God has different standards for goodness than humans do.

@Trailblazer has said that she doesn't think any standards apply to God at all.

Do you see how these two positions are different?

No, I think what @muhammad_isa is saying is that God does not have to 'measure up' to any standards of goodness that humans set for Him.

As he said: What is good for us, does not apply to G-d as He is not a human being.