‘Free will’ is not an excuse for God allowing atrocities.

[YoursTrue]

What it has to do with is what you don't like (supposedlyl) about God permitting atrocities

I haven't taken a stand on whether or not I like or dislike anything about god permitting atrocities. For some reason you've just assumed that I have. The only thing I've taken a stand on is whether or not the argument that god allows atrocities because he can't interfere in human free will stands up to scrutiny.

Right now basically all I'm going to say is that there are atrocities, you understand there are atrocities. And yes, the question in order to understand this, is about evolution, if one believes in that, and what happens in front of us. It's getting late, perhaps we can discuss this in greater length later. I'm glad you realize though that there are atrocities and that there are those of us that believe God does permit them. As we know, some people enjoy seeing gore and horrible things. The subject of free will is a bit difficult to call into the mix of God, atrocities, and free will, but again -- I'll just leave you with the question about dying. Many of us do not wish to die. Yet we face death. So believe in God or not, things we don't like or want to happen, will happen. Yes, perhaps we can talk of this later.

 

[DNB]

I never mentioned a gender/sex about mine. And they are truly everywhere, in all matter, all things living, dead, and inanimate, pulling and tugging at the threads of the Cosmos.
As for god is in the rain, give it a thought. It's very short in length but great in depth.

God is He, the Father.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

God is He, the Father.

That is your god, who is apparently so restricted he can't be everywhere, including the rain.
That is not my gods.

 

[QuestioningMind]

Right now basically all I'm going to say is that there are atrocities, you understand there are atrocities. And yes, the question in order to understand this, is about evolution, if one believes in that, and what happens in front of us. It's getting late, perhaps we can discuss this in greater length later. I'm glad you realize though that there are atrocities and that there are those of us that believe God does permit them. As we know, some people enjoy seeing gore and horrible things. The subject of free will is a bit difficult to call into the mix of God, atrocities, and free will, but again -- I'll just leave you with the question about dying. Many of us do not wish to die. Yet we face death. So believe in God or not, things we don't like or want to happen, will happen. Yes, perhaps we can talk of this later.

I most certainly understand and accept that there are atrocities. As an atheist I have no belief that any sort of god being is responsible for atrocities or has any responsibility to intervene to stop atrocities, since I have no reason to believe than any god being exists. I accept that the only ones who can intervene to prevent human beings from committing atrocities are other human beings. Sadly I don't think it's something we'll ever be able to entirely prevent, but at the same time I recognize that over the last century and more, human societies have made great strides in decreasing the amount of atrocious behavior that in the past was routinely ignored or accepted. That's not to downplay the horrible human behaviors we still see so often to day. But it's important to remember that due to our global news networks we hear about nearly every atrocity that occurs throughout the world and that not too long ago in our own societies much of the atrocious behaviors were so saddened about today were considered perfectly acceptable.

We've come a long way, but that doesn't mean we still don't have a long way to go.

 

[MonkeyFire]

What is this supposed to mean?

We weren't talking about love. Do you have no answers to my questions, or my other points?

Faith is an archetype of love.

 

[Trailblazer]

It's up to a percentage of conservative voters. We don't know. There is a lot of disinformation out there that right wing people accept.

Whatever happens to this country will happen. Nobody knows what that will be. I can't do anything but vote. I think things will get better eventually even if they have to get worse before they get better.

 

[Trailblazer]

I addressed that in my OP.

Obviously god deciding when a person’s life will come to an end isn’t a violation of their free will otherwise every single person who has ever died unwillingly has had their free will violated, which pretty much includes everyone except for people who commit suicide, sacrifice their lives for others, or are experiencing unendurable suffering.

No, it would not be a violation of their free will, it would be an act of God, so it would fall under the category of fate.

 

[PruePhillip]

Well, we’re made in God’s image. If God demands He avoid responsibility, He shouldn’t be shocked when we do.

The God of the bible doesn't avoid responsibility - He gives us responsibiity.
And as the Sermon on the Mount Matt 5,6,7 shows, these responsibilities
are quite onerous.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Why is there not a 21st century prophet? Shouldn’t there be someone every generation?

There is a Prophet for this age though, I believe.

 

[QuestioningMind]

No, it would not be a violation of their free will, it would be an act of God, so it would fall under the category of fate.

Which was precisely my point. Therefore the claim that some theists make that the reason their god doesn't intervene in the case of a serial child killer is because of free will doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Which was precisely my point. Therefore the claim that some theists make that the reason their god doesn't intervene in the case of a serial child killer is because of free will doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

I don't understand.
Why would G-d intervene?
Is it somehow wrong to let mankind take responsibility for themselves?

..and of course, that assumes that G-d does not intervene.
It also assumes that everything we see as bad, isn't actually good in some way.

 

[syo]

When I ask believers why their god would allow a serial killer to abuse and murder a dozen innocent children over the course of his lifetime, I am often told that god is helpless to intervene because he gave us all ‘free will’ and that to intervene would be a violation of that ‘free will’. It sounds reasonable at first glance, but this argument doesn’t hold up under scrutiny.

I agree that if god were to snap his metaphorical fingers and magically take away the serial killer’s perverse desires or temporarily paralyze him any time he attempted to commit a wicked act that it would be a violation of free will. But why doesn’t god just snap his metaphorical fingers and give the guy a lethal heat attack? Obviously god deciding when a person’s life will come to an end isn’t a violation of their free will otherwise every single person who has ever died unwillingly has had their free will violated, which pretty much includes everyone except for people who commit suicide, sacrifice their lives for others, or are experiencing unendurable suffering.

So after this guy kills his first innocent child why doesn’t god decide to bring his life to an end? Even if god wanted to give the guy the chance to repent and seek forgiveness for his sins, why didn’t god give him a heart attack after the second innocent victim or the third? Why would a loving and caring god allow this maniac to kill a dozen little children and end up dying peacefully in his sleep in his late 80’s?


It obviously has nothing to do with god being helpless to intervene because of the killer’s free will.

The christian god created the atrocities and gave people free will to do the atrocities.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Some traits are "inherited", and some are not.

The way Yahweh is characterized, we are definitely from Him.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

The God of the bible doesn't avoid responsibility - He gives us responsibiity.
And as the Sermon on the Mount Matt 5,6,7 shows, these responsibilities
are quite onerous.

Who punished God’s sins?

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

There is a Prophet for this age though, I believe.

I don’t count the 19th century as “this age “.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

I don't understand.
Why would G-d intervene?
Is it somehow wrong to let mankind take responsibility for themselves?

..and of course, that assumes that G-d does not intervene.
It also assumes that everything we see as bad, isn't actually good in some way.

Is there a particular need for God to be negligent?

 

[Trailblazer]

Which was precisely my point. Therefore the claim that some theists make that the reason their god doesn't intervene in the case of a serial child killer is because of free will doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

Correct. The real reason God does not intervene is because God chooses not to intervene, and an omnipotent God ONLY does what He chooses to do.

“Say: O people! Let not this life and its deceits deceive you, for the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will. He bestoweth His favor on whom He willeth, and from whom He willeth He taketh it away. He doth whatsoever He chooseth.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 209

 

[clara17]

This is a new age and unlike any age we have seen before and Bahaulah put in place what will be needed to prevent corruption.

I do not interpret 2 Peter 3:10 literally, I interpret it figuratively.
I believe that 1 Cor 15:26 is referring to spiritual death, not physical death. Any other interpretation is absurd because physical death was never intended to be eliminated since physical bodies were created to be mortal.

It happened from 1844 - 1892, as the Bab and Baha'u'llah unsealed the Book in their Writings by explaining what much of the Bible means.

Again, I do not interpret these verses literally, I interpret them figuratively. What will pass away is the old earth (the old world order on earth). What will rise in its stead is the new world order.

Revelation 21 New Heaven and New Earth
King James Version (KJV)

21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

I believe those verses above pertain to the new Law of God, sent down from God out of heaven. Law of God refers to the Revelation of God. It is also interesting to note that Jerusalem, and the hills and land thereof is where Baha'u'llah appeared and pitched His tent, and it is also where the Baha'i World Centre is located, atop Mt. Carmel.

“The time foreordained unto the peoples and kindreds of the earth is now come. The promises of God, as recorded in the holy Scriptures, have all been fulfilled. Out of Zion hath gone forth the Law of God, and Jerusalem, and the hills and land thereof, are filled with the glory of His Revelation. Happy is the man that pondereth in his heart that which hath been revealed in the Books of God, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. Meditate upon this, O ye beloved of God, and let your ears be attentive unto His Word, so that ye may, by His grace and mercy, drink your fill from the crystal waters of constancy, and become as steadfast and immovable as the mountain in His Cause.

In the Book of Isaiah it is written: “Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of His majesty.” No man that meditateth upon this verse can fail to recognize the greatness of this Cause, or doubt the exalted character of this Day—the Day of God Himself.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 12-13

Interesting. Well, I guess if you can interpret the Bible to mean anything you want, there is really no purpose in reading it.

 

[clara17]

Poetry and symbolism is never wrong.

Sometimes it can be

 

[clara17]

But it is such excellent opinion.


This describes a fragile mind that is dependent on belief in some ideology because it lacks its own confidence and strength. Have you even questioned why you need hope? Do you feel helpless?


Why some people need to believe in irrational concepts is pretty well explained. Believers know what they believe and will talk and talk and talk. But religious believers don't themselves understand WHY they need to believe what they do. They are simply following their natural innate behavior which is how humans evolved. They tend to subconsciously mimic other theists around them, and adopt those beliefs. There is no contemplation and rational decision that comes first.

Non-religious believers do all of the same things religious ones do.
They put their faith in various religions, all filled with nonsense, dogma, ritual,
and then run around proclaiming how enlightened and rational and non-religious they are.
Never stopping to notice how stupid most of their beliefs are.