‘Free will’ is not an excuse for God allowing atrocities.

[Shadow Wolf]

Whatever happens to this country will happen. Nobody knows what that will be. I can't do anything but vote. I think things will get better eventually even if they have to get worse before they get better.

Iran shows us this idea of a moral progress destined for improved morality in the end isn't real. From Medieval times to now the Christian and Muslim words did a role reversal, which was good for the Christians because learning, tolerance, and peace could thrive as we learned our shadow isn't hiding the devil, but unfortunate for the Muslim world because it went from promoting learning and contributing things to human society at large to embracing radical extremism that lacks historic precedence, shuns learning, and is the same extremism that eventually lead to witch trials and executions in the Christian world.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Non-religious believers do all of the same things religious ones do.
They put their faith in various religions, all filled with nonsense, dogma, ritual,
and then run around proclaiming how enlightened and rational and non-religious they are.

I observe that disbelievers do that too.
It is just that they put their faith in the science of "secular society" and evolution etc.
Their faith is often misplaced, as believers, and have extreme views based on fallacy and what have you.

 

[Trailblazer]

Interesting. Well, I guess if you can interpret the Bible to mean anything you want, there is really no purpose in reading it.

Anything "I want?"
Maybe you do not realize that you are the pot calling the kettle black.
Everyone interprets the Bible differently, to mean what they think it means.
Who is right and who is wrong?

 

[Trailblazer]

but unfortunate for the Muslim world because it went from promoting learning and contributing things to human society at large to embracing radical extremism that lacks historic precedence, shuns learning, and is the same extremism that eventually lead to witch trials and executions in the Christian world.

That is what happens to religions over time, they lose there luster and get off track, and that is why God sends new Messengers in every age to establish another religion that is fresh and new.

“All that lives, and this includes the religions, have springtime, a time of maturity, of harvest and wintertime. Then religion becomes barren, a lifeless adherence to the letter uninformed by the spirit, and man’s spiritual life declines. When we look at religious history, we see that God has spoken to men precisely at times when they have reached the nadir of their degradation and cultural decadence. Moses came to Israel when it was languishing under the Pharaoh’s yoke, Christ appeared at a time when the Jewish Faith had lost its power and culture of antiquity was in its death those. Muhammad came to a people who lived in barbaric ignorance at the lowest level of culture and into a world in which the former religions had strayed far away from their origins and nearly lost their identity. The Bab addressed Himself to a people who had irretrievably lost their former grandeur and who found themselves in a state of hopeless decadence. Baha’u’llah came to a humanity which was approaching the most critical phase of its history.”
(Udo Schaefer, The Light Shineth in Darkness, p. 24)

 

[F1fan]

Non-religious believers do all of the same things religious ones do.

Like eat burritos. Drive cars. Work. All except be religious.

They put their faith in various religions, all filled with nonsense, dogma, ritual,
and then run around proclaiming how enlightened and rational and non-religious they are.

This describes theists, except they are religious.

But feel free to go into detail to defend your claim above. Give examples and use facts. I doubt you will because I suspect you were bluffing as many do on this issue.

 

[F1fan]

That is what happens to religions over time, they lose there luster and get off track, and that is why God sends new Messengers in every age to establish another religion that is fresh and new.

God should have seen it coming instead of sending a "new and improved" product over and over again, which ends up causing division. Not exactly what Baha'i claim in God's motive.

 

[clara17]

Anything "I want?"
Maybe you do not realize that you are the pot calling the kettle black.
Everyone interprets the Bible differently, to mean what they think it means.
Who is right and who is wrong?

Well, it says what it says. I was just reading what it says.
You are saying you don't take it to mean what it actually says.

 

[clara17]

Like eat burritos. Drive cars. Work. All except be religious.

This describes theists, except they are religious.

But feel free to go into detail to defend your claim above. Give examples and use facts. I doubt you will because I suspect you were bluffing as many do on this issue.

They put their faith in the state, academia, industry, political parties, the list goes on.
Their faith remains unwavering.

 

[F1fan]

They put their faith in the state, academia, industry, political parties, the list goes on.
Their faith remains unwavering.

Which is a different type of faith all together. You are moving goalposts. Theists believe in their irrational concepts due to faith (and many other subconscious factors). Atheists reject these concepts due to reason. You can argue that non-theists have faith in their ability to reason, but at least reason can show it is rational, factual, and true, unlike religious claims.

So if faith is used it has to be qualified.

 

[Trailblazer]

God should have seen it coming instead of sending a "new and improved" product over and over again, which ends up causing division. Not exactly what Baha'i claim in God's motive.

God did see it coming since an all-knowing God has complete foreknowledge, but God never sends the new and improved product until humans are ready to receive it and can make use of the product. Jesus knew that.

John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

The only reason that a new religion causes division is because most people hold onto the old religion and clutch it for dear life. That certainly is not God's fault.

 

[Trailblazer]

Well, it says what it says. I was just reading what it says.
You are saying you don't take it to mean what it actually says.

The Bible does not SAY anything. It is just words on a page that need to be read and interpreted to mean something.

 

[F1fan]

God did see it coming since an all-knowing God has complete foreknowledge, but God never sends the new and improved product until humans are ready to receive it and can make use of the product. Jesus knew that.

Then it is terrible planning given what you say next.

The only reason that a new religion causes division is because most people hold onto the old religion and clutch it for dear life. That certainly is not God's fault.

And given what you say above God knew this would happen, so it's God's fault. God should have done a better job.

Your God's a screw up. And we are supposed to worship this version you present to us? This is why people don't believe.

 

[Trailblazer]

And given what you say above God knew this would happen, so it's God's fault.

God's foreknowledge is not the cause of things that people do. That is completely illogical. There is no connection whatsoever between what God knows and what people choose to do.

“Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets. This fore-knowledge of God, however, should not be regarded as having caused the actions of men, just as your own previous knowledge that a certain event is to occur, or your desire that it should happen, is not and can never be the reason for its occurrence.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150

Question.—If God has knowledge of an action which will be performed by someone, and it has been written on the Tablet of Fate, is it possible to resist it?
Answer.—The foreknowledge of a thing is not the cause of its realization; for the essential knowledge of God surrounds, in the same way, the realities of things, before as well as after their existence, and it does not become the cause of their existence. It is a perfection of God.......
Some Answered Questions, p. 138

 

[Shadow Wolf]

That is what happens to religions over time, they lose there luster and get off track, and that is why God sends new Messengers in every age to establish another religion that is fresh and new.

No, as Christians have done the opposite. The Christian world did fall into a strangling depth of superstitious paranoia, but it climbed back out, except in America where it began to slip backwards into willful ignorance and superstition during the American Great Awakening of the mid-19th century, when Biblical literalism, YEC, and shunning outside texts with the belief the Bible is all one needs. The rest of the Western Christian world isn't this whacky. They accept evolution and don't get totally obsesses with the consensual sex lives of others.

 

[clara17]

The Bible does not SAY anything. It is just words on a page that need to be read and interpreted to mean something.

yawn, ok. got it

 

[QuestioningMind]

I don't understand.
Why would G-d intervene?
Is it somehow wrong to let mankind take responsibility for themselves?

..and of course, that assumes that G-d does not intervene.
It also assumes that everything we see as bad, isn't actually good in some way.

Why would you ask me? I've very specifically stated that this is not MY argument, but an argument I've heard some theists make.

 

[QuestioningMind]

The christian god created the atrocities and gave people free will to do the atrocities.

Okay.

 

[QuestioningMind]

Correct. The real reason God does not intervene is because God chooses not to intervene, and an omnipotent God ONLY does what He chooses to do.

“Say: O people! Let not this life and its deceits deceive you, for the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will. He bestoweth His favor on whom He willeth, and from whom He willeth He taketh it away. He doth whatsoever He chooseth.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 209

See... I knew you agree all along.

 

[F1fan]

They put their faith in the state, academia, industry, political parties, the list goes on.
Their faith remains unwavering.

Notice all items in this are real, unlike religious concepts. And this list above would include everyone, and we have faith in a qualified way. Academia has a history of being ethical and doing credible work. The state id a democracy, so if a member of the state is corrupt, like a previous president, the people throw them out so our trust, faith, can be maintained.

When a theist has faith in religious ideas on what basis is this trust invested? How odes it show credibility? As we know religious concepts don;t stand up to rational enquiry, so it fails there. So what is left? Emotions? Meaning? Tradition? Culture? Sure. But in what way are religious concepts credible from an objective and rational way, which is very important for modern people and standards orf thought?

 

[F1fan]

God's foreknowledge is not the cause of things that people do. That is completely illogical. There is no connection whatsoever between what God knows and what people choose to do.

If your best friend knows on Monday that you intend to murder your spouse on Thursday, but she doesn't do anything to stop you, or call your spouse, or call the police, or anything, and just lets it happen, there is a serious moral failure on your friend's part. The person might even be held criminally liable in some places. The issue isn't that you intend to murder, it's that someone could have stopped you and didn't. Your friend insists she didn't have any place to interfere with your free will to commit whatever acts you want. Is your friend correct in doing nothing?