“Christianized” mysticism

[SageTree]

Don't forget The Cloud of Unknowing, as an early guide to Christian Meditation. For those interested in more recent guidance for the Christian Contemplative - they may want to check out the work of Father Thomas Keating and the Centering Prayer movement.

The World Community of Christian Meditation

Another good source for inspiration and guidance.

:namaste

 

[InChrist]

If that statement were true then Christian history would not be riddled with violence in the name of Christ. It would all be self-explanitory and we would all agree 100% of the time, just the same way that when we look at sun in the sky we all see it - we may call it different names - but we all see it - we all acknowledge its existence - we all know its importance in making our crops and flowers grow. We all accept its existence.

The sun stands on its own - it needs no explanation to the farmer wondering if the seeds he planted will grow. Humans do not go to war or hurt other humans over the definition of the one true earth's sun - we all know its the only sun the earth will ever get.

Humans hurt each other all the time over the "one TRUE" interpretation of the Bible, over the "one TRUE" understanding of God.

That reality alone nullifies what you said above about the Bible standing on its own.

I don't believe the violence you refer to is because of the true interpretation of the Bible, but rather it is because of direct contradiction to its teachings. Clearly the scriptures say to esteem others before self, to love one's enemy and to do good to those who persecute you. So the violence done through history by those using the Bible or the name of Christ actually displays their blatant disregard for the scriptures and disobedience to Christ.

Again - to answer your question is to descend into a debate about what is the "TRUE" understanding of Jesus Christ, the "TRUE" understanding of Savior, the "TRUE" understanding of sin, the "TRUE" understanding of the Bible and God itself. And I long ago gave up the egos need to prove myself "right" in those areas. It's the cause of too much pain, too many wars and too much violence in human history to go there.

[/quote]

So you cannot answer the question: Is Jesus your Savior?

If you do accept the simple and plain meaning of the words in the Bible concerning Jesus, how did you come to your "TRUE" understanding of Jesus, sin, Savior?

 

[SageTree]

InChrist,

Do you think that God stopped speaking to people after the last chapter of Revelation?
What exactly do the various scriptures mean when they say 'meditate' or that so and so did?
What is the point of that advice to do so?
Maybe you can give us the cut and dry way it is on that as well?

I'd be interested to hear what you have to say about it.
Your opinion that is.

:namaste

 

[InChrist]

InChrist,

Do you think that God stopped speaking to people after the last chapter of Revelation?

I believe the scriptures are alive, meaning that God speaks by the power of the Holy Spirit to the one reading and seeking to hear from God. I do not believe God is giving any new revelation because His revelation through the scriptures is sufficient and complete. Nor does God give new revelation which contradicts His already revealed word, which so many of the claimed new revelations do.

What exactly do the various scriptures mean when they say 'meditate' or that so and so did?

When the scriptures speak about meditating it means to think about or dwell on the words and wisdom they reveal from God. This is not the same as eastern or mystical meditation which is to empty or quiet one's mind from the thinking process.

What is the point of that advice to do so?

The point of meditating on the scriptures is to align one's thinking with God's perspective and revealed truths, which transforms one's sinful thoughts into godly thoughts.

Maybe you can give us the cut and dry way it is on that as well?

I'd be interested to hear what you have to say about it.

:namaste

[/quote]


I'm not sure what you mean by, "the cut and dry way it is on that", could you rephrase that?

 

[Open_Minded]

I don't believe the violence you refer to is because of the true interpretation of the Bible, but rather it is because of direct contradiction to its teachings.

Direct contradiction to its teachings is the reason we have war - well I won't argue that point - because it has validity. But - it ignores war and violence wrought in the name of God and using the Bible as defense. Here is just one example of that kind of interpretation

Question: "What does the Bible say about war?"

Answer: Many people make the mistake of reading what the Bible says in Exodus 20:13, “You shall not kill,” and then seeking to apply this command to war. However, the Hebrew word literally means “the intentional, premeditated killing of another person with malice; murder.” God often ordered the Israelites to go to war with other nations (1 Samuel 15:3; Joshua 4:13). God ordered the death penalty for numerous crimes (Exodus 21:12, 15; 22:19; Leviticus 20:11). So, God is not against killing in all circumstances, but only murder. War is never a good thing, but sometimes it is a necessary thing. In a world filled with sinful people (Romans 3:10-18), war is inevitable. Sometimes the only way to keep sinful people from doing great harm to the innocent is by going to war.

In the Old Testament, God ordered the Israelites to “take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites” (Numbers 31:2). Deuteronomy 20:16-17 declares, “However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. Completely destroy them…as the LORD your God has commanded you.” Also, 1 Samuel 15:18 says, “Go and completely destroy those wicked people, the Amalekites; make war on them until you have wiped them out.” Obviously God is not against all war. Jesus is always in perfect agreement with the Father (John 10:30), so we cannot argue that war was only God’s will in the Old Testament. God does not change (Malachi 3:6; James 1:17).

Jesus’ second coming will be exceedingly violent. Revelation 19:11-21 describes the ultimate war with Christ, the conquering commander who judges and makes war “with justice” (v. 11). It’s going to be bloody (v. 13) and gory. The birds will eat the flesh of all those who oppose Him (v. 17-18). He has no compassion upon His enemies, whom He will conquer completely and consign to a “fiery lake of burning sulfur” (v. 20).

It is an error to say that God never supports a war. Jesus is not a pacifist. In a world filled with evil people, sometimes war is necessary to prevent even greater evil. If Hitler had not been defeated by World War II, how many more millions would have been killed? If the American Civil War had not been fought, how much longer would African-Americans have had to suffer as slaves?

Never mind the fact that the Bible was used to justify slavery. It was used to justify beating women and children. It was used to justify keeping the vote from Women. It has been used to justify untold violence to untold numbers of humans throughout Christian history. Today it is used to justify discrimination against the LGBT community the same way it was used to justify discrimination against people of Color 50 years ago. Your assertations are false in the face of an objective reality that says otherwise.

So you cannot answer the question: Is Jesus your Savior?

There is a difference between "cannot answer" and will not answer, there is. You may not like the difference but it is there none-the-less.

Cannot answer has more to do with your complete inability to show that your interpretration of the Bible is the "TRUE" interpretation. It is not physically possible to do because your interpretation is simply one interpretation among millions. For every single person who reads the Bible sees in it, what they see.

You see in the Bible what you see. You see in me what you see - there is nothing I could say or do to make you see otherwise, because your mind is already made up.

 

[SageTree]

I believe the scriptures are alive, meaning that God speaks by the power of the Holy Spirit to the one reading and seeking to hear from God. I do not believe God is giving any new revelation because His revelation through the scriptures is sufficient and complete. Nor does God give new revelation which contradicts His already revealed word, which so many of the claimed new revelations do.

Ok, fair enough. I wholly agree with you. And so would the Desert Monastics, I'm sure.

When the scriptures speak about meditating it means to think about or dwell on the words and wisdom they reveal from God.

I concur with this statement as well.

This is not the same as eastern or mystical meditation which is to empty or quiet one's mind from the thinking process.

This is a generalized statement and not accurate in all cases from my opinion.
But again, having your opinions are okay, and I respect yours.

The point of meditating on the scriptures is to align one's thinking with God's perspective and revealed truths, which transforms one's sinful thoughts into godly thoughts.

Again, I agree with you here.

Thanks for your thoughts. You told it how you saw it, like I asked.

Peace.

 

[Windwalker]

Does the real Creator God accept such practices?

I think that might be answered by whether or not it bears fruit in the person's life. Don't you think? A good tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor an evil tree good fruit. You assume this 'salvation' is some behind the scenes accounting figure in an unseen book that you must appease the great Accountant just right? "By their fruits you shall know them", not by how you judge their spiritual practices. I'd say judge by the fruits they bear, whether they be good or bad, whether they promote love and compassion, or religious self-righteousness.

Many of the practices of the Desert Fathers were nothing new, but the same practices and techniques that have long been used by shamans, witchdoctors, medicine men, and other practitioners of magic and occultism to connect with the spirit world.

Do you believe in the practice of speaking in tongues, even though that predates Christianity and is practiced by many religions throughout the world? What about sacrifices? What about prayers? What about reading scriptures? Those are are the same in other religions predating both Christianity and Judaism.

I believe it is too easy for someone to judge his brother based on superficial things. The Pharisees judged the followers of Jesus citing scripture too, you know. How did Jesus feel about that attitude in them?

 

[Open_Minded]

Another excellent resource for anyone interested in Christian meditation is: Prayers of the Cosmos: Meditations on the Aramaic Words of Jesus

It's particularly fascinating because Aramaic (the language Jesus spoke) is a language in which one word can have multiple meanings. So... the Lord's Prayer (for instance) can be translated into English multiple ways. Following is just one translation from Aramaic into English:

O Birther! Father- Mother of the Cosmos​

Focus your light within us - make it useful.​

Create your reign of unity now-​

through our fiery hearts and willing hands​

Help us love beyond our ideals​

and sprout acts of compassion for all creatures.​

Animate the earth within us: we then​

feel the Wisdom underneath supporting all.​

Untangle the knots within​

so that we can mend our hearts' simple ties to each other.​

Don't let surface things delude us,​

But free us from what holds us back from our true purpose.​

Out of you, the astonishing fire,​

Returning light and sound to the cosmos.​

Amen.​

 

[Windwalker]

Another excellent resource for anyone interested in Christian meditation is: Prayers of the Cosmos: Meditations on the Aramaic Words of Jesus

Interestingly enough, I added that to my Amazon cart two days ago. Imagine that. I think I shall place that order soon.

It's particularly fascinating because Aramaic (the language Jesus spoke) is a language in which one word can have multiple meanings. So... the Lord's Prayer (for instance) can be translated into English multiple ways. Following is just one translation from Aramaic into English:

Lovely. It's really amazing how the "plain meaning of the words", isn't really so plain to see after all!

 

[Open_Minded]

Interestingly enough, I added that to my Amazon cart two days ago. Imagine that. I think I shall place that order soon.


Lovely. It's really amazing how the "plain meaning of the words", isn't really so plain to see after all!

Very astute observation

If you are interested in Prayers of the Cosmos: Meditations on the Aramaic Words of Jesus Then you may also be interested in this. It should touch your love for music

 

[Windwalker]

Very astute observation

If you are interested in Prayers of the Cosmos: Meditations on the Aramaic Words of Jesus Then you may also be interested in this. It should touch your love for music

Oh my, that looks right up my ally! Wow. Thank you.

 

[Windwalker]

When the scriptures speak about meditating it means to think about or dwell on the words and wisdom they reveal from God. This is not the same as eastern or mystical meditation which is to empty or quiet one's mind from the thinking process.

Are you so certain? If so, how are you so certain?

What is meditation but to spend time essentially, communing with God? How does one commune with God if your mind is busy trying to figure junk out? You can't. You aren't in a position to listen if your mouth (mind) is busy fluttering about. You're not looking to God. And the only way that happens is to, to be blunt, you shut up and listen. How do you shut up and listen, but by stilling your thoughts and opening them up to hear that "still small voice".

This is meditation. And when you hear that voice, then the quite mind is able to learn truth, about yourself, about love, about compassion, about the nature of God, about your nature. You are, in essence a vessel. But how can you be that if you are filled with yourself, busily chattering away and filling up all that space and expending all that energy?

I do not believe the sorts of insights that arise in meditation, about scripture itself, can be realized by just 'thinking about them'. If God's ways are higher than your ways, than how can you learn about them if you are never quite enough to listen, to learn, and ultimately, to become?

What do you think Jesus did out there for 40 days and nights in the desert? Read books?

The point of meditating on the scriptures is to align one's thinking with God's perspective and revealed truths, which transforms one's sinful thoughts into godly thoughts.

Abandoning yourself to God is what transforms ones thoughts, and that doesn't happen, cannot happen, if you don't let go of them.

 

[SageTree]

We all need to be careful to hold off on debate.

What are folks' thoughts on getting this moved to Same Faith Debates,
before it ends up getting moved to Same Faith Debates?


​

 

[Shiranui117]

If it DOES get move to the Same Faith Debates forum, maybe we could merge it with the "Christian Monasticism and Monastic-type Spirituality? (Christians only)" thread that I started?

 

[Open_Minded]

SageTree - I'm pretty new here - so I'm going to defer to the judgement of others. Whatever you all decide.

 

[Windwalker]

I think it's unfair to make a judgment of others, and then say it's not open for debate. I'm all for opening it up for other opinions.

 

[SageTree]

Thanks for your thoughts and opinions, just want to keep everyone in the good here.
Not need to get into hot water over anything.

And as Shiranui pointed out, there is a thread were more talking/debating can occur if need be for now.

Otherwise, just commenting respectfully would be advisable.

I'd like to see this moved to SFD, myself.
And on it's present course, I think it will end up there.

It's up to InChrist, Shiranui, if there would ever be a merge,
but at this point InChrist might not even want this in SFD.

But like I said, there is already some debate in here, so chances are it'll get over to SFD before long,
consensually or not.

 

[InChrist]

Moving this to Same Faith Debates and/or merging it with Christian Monasticism and Monastic-type Spirituality? (Christians only) is fine with me.

 

[Shiranui117]

If it's fine with InChrist, it's fine with me.

 

[Badran]

***Mod post***

This thread has been moved to the Same Faith Debates forum.​