‘Free will’ is not an excuse for God allowing atrocities.

[DNB]

What a bleak way of looking at life.

Realistic, repentant, and thus, salvific!

 

[DNB]

Kinda like we humans are just an ant farm. Is that why your god allows little children to be born with genetic defects and cancers?

Life is short and painful for all, eternity is forever and ineffable - no comparison.

 

[F1fan]

Life is short and painful for all, eternity is forever and ineffable - no comparison.

Live life, and don't worry about eternity.

Why be worried about living an eternity of hell during your short life when you can't be sure it's true?

 

[DNB]

Live life, and don't worry about eternity.

Why be worried about living an eternity of hell during your short life when you can't be sure it's true?

Pleasing God is all that matters, ...and if there are favourable ramifications to that, then even more reasons to show gratitude and obedience to Him. Eternal glory is simply a byproduct of doing what we were intended to do: love one another, and which benefits us all inconsequentially.

 

[Trailblazer]

According to you, it could be an immoral God since it has no standards to follow.

God cannot be immoral because God is all-good by nature.

God needs no standards to follow because God knows what is good since God is all-good. Of course that is a belief, not a fact.

First, you're admitting theists' beliefs are not factual, good for you.

Of course I know that religious beliefs are not factual because if they were they would be facts, not beliefs.

Second, what atheists' beliefs are you referring to that are not factual?

No beliefs that atheists hold about what God could be or do are factual, not anymore than theists beliefs about God are factual.

 

[Trailblazer]

Why be worried about living an eternity of hell during your short life when you can't be sure it's true?

But what if it is true, ever thought of that?
I do not believe in the Christian hell but rather I believe that hell is a state of the soul that is distant from God, and sometimes I worry about ending up there since I am not God's biggest fan, like @DNB.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

My God deserves it, He doesn't need it. He can justifiably annihilate us anytime that He wants, and thus with no one to worship Him, neither His glory nor supremacy will be diminished.

Then why does he command it? Why does he make it a death penalty to know him and then worship other gods?
And how is it justified if he annihilates us?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

What sins?

Genocide, for starters.

 

[PruePhillip]

Genocide, for starters.

Yes, particularly the Jews who 'did not know the time of their visitation' as Jesus put it when He
wept over Jerusalem. But God has no such law for himself - He certainly warns us to not even
be angry with a brother.The biblical God that the creation is His and He will do as He choses.
This is why we are urged to fear God.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Yes, particularly the Jews who 'did not know the time of their visitation' as Jesus put it when He
wept over Jerusalem. But God has no such law for himself - He certainly warns us to not even
be angry with a brother.The biblical God that the creation is His and He will do as He choses.
This is why we are urged to fear God.

I will not fear a tyrant who establishes one set of laws for those he wants to rule over but have an different set if laws for himself that makes the rules not apply.
Such a thing isn't worth my adoration or worship or respect. That thing is wicked and cruel, a tyrant who has never learned you get further with people by being nice instead of threats to coerce people into compliance and submission.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I will not fear a tyrant who establishes one set of laws for those he wants to rule over but have an different set if laws for himself that makes the rules not apply.
Such a thing isn't worth my adoration or worship or respect. That thing is wicked and cruel, a tyrant who has never learned you get further with people by being nice instead of threats to coerce people into compliance and submission.

People say that reality is cruel, so "how can there be a loving G-d"?
Does that mean that there is no love in this world? .. or do you think that because this world appears to be cruel, then we should also be cruel?

What G-d does in effect, is describe a spiritual reality.
One in which badness ends up with badness, and goodness ends up with goodness.
Will we never learn? Is ignorance a consequence of ignoring?

 

[muhammad_isa]

BTW, are you Sunni or Shiite?

I do not aspire to "royalism"..
i.e. that a person is more fit to lead due to their linage

I am not against "a house of Lords", but I don't feel that they should have exclusive sovereignty, as the right person to lead a nation should be determined by that nation, and not the claims of royals.

It is the fallibility of humans that cause division. They have differing opinions on a variety of issues.
We all back different teams
eg. Manchester United or Chelsea etc.

I try to be impartial, and to determine the difference between human preference and absolute truths.

 

[PruePhillip]

I will not fear a tyrant who establishes one set of laws for those he wants to rule over but have an different set if laws for himself that makes the rules not apply.
Such a thing isn't worth my adoration or worship or respect. That thing is wicked and cruel, a tyrant who has never learned you get further with people by being nice instead of threats to coerce people into compliance and submission.

Lots of Jews feel that way, particularly amongst holocaust survivors. Knew an old Jewish lady
who survived a German labor camp, she would sometimes cry to me, 'Where WAS he, where
WAS he?' with respect to the all-loving God of her people's Tanakh (bible)
Never had the heart to challenge this old lady with the burning question, 'Where were YOU
when God called?' She never believed to start with.
And the biblical God sent the Jews into Egyptian slavery, that forty year journey where few of
the original exiles made it to Israel, the conflicts and defeats of the Jews, the banishing of the
ten tribes, the 40 year exile in Babylon, conquest by Greece and destruction by Rome - and
that was just the beginning - God said they would lose their temple and nation, and be in exile
throughout the whole world, and suffer terrible persecutions. But... God said he would allow
His people to return to their homeland one day - that day would come when the 'Gentiles time
is fulfilled' as Jesus put it. So one day the Gentile will suffer as the Jew has.

 

[Ashoka]

Realistic, repentant, and thus, salvific!

It's not realistic. It's doom and gloom.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Lots of Jews feel that way, particularly amongst holocaust survivors. Knew an old Jewish lady
who survived a German labor camp, she would sometimes cry to me, 'Where WAS he, where
WAS he?' with respect to the all-loving God of her people's Tanakh (bible)
Never had the heart to challenge this old lady with the burning question, 'Where were YOU
when God called?' She never believed to start with.
And the biblical God sent the Jews into Egyptian slavery, that forty year journey where few of
the original exiles made it to Israel, the conflicts and defeats of the Jews, the banishing of the
ten tribes, the 40 year exile in Babylon, conquest by Greece and destruction by Rome - and
that was just the beginning - God said they would lose their temple and nation, and be in exile
throughout the whole world, and suffer terrible persecutions. But... God said he would allow
His people to return to their homeland one day - that day would come when the 'Gentiles time
is fulfilled' as Jesus put it. So one day the Gentile will suffer as the Jew has.

Thise sort of discussions in Church were probably the first chip in my faith to cause irreparable and terminal damage to it. Because, yeah, it was taught that suffering such heinous cruelty and barbaric torture was Jehovah's will, a punishment to those disbelieving and disobedient Jews. Basically saying they had it coming because just look at what Jehovah did to them in the OT.
Such positions are hateful and utterly void of empathy and concern for your fellow humans. Amd the arrogance and audacity to assume she never believed to begin with? That's pretty harsh and cruel itself.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Does that mean that there is no love in this world? .. or do you think that because this world appears to be cruel, then we should also be cruel?

No. We should instead show compassion and empathy towards one another, do what we can to help each other's time on this planet have less suffering and more joy.
That's rather a huge leap to try to get there. Forego threats of eternal damnation, stop trying to convert people, and just live in peace and harmony while embracing our differences.
Live and let live is a mentality we would all do to foster and improve within ourselves.

What G-d does in effect, is describe a spiritual reality.
One in which badness ends up with badness, and goodness ends up with goodness.
Will we never learn? Is ignorance a

Then god sometimes punishes children before they are even born. And will we never learn to stand up against tyranny and tell it no more? Will we never learn it is up to us to help improve our world for others?

 

[PruePhillip]

Thise sort of discussions in Church were probably the first chip in my faith to cause irreparable and terminal damage to it. Because, yeah, it was taught that suffering such heinous cruelty and barbaric torture was Jehovah's will, a punishment to those disbelieving and disobedient Jews. Basically saying they had it coming because just look at what Jehovah did to them in the OT.
Such positions are hateful and utterly void of empathy and concern for your fellow humans. Amd the arrogance and audacity to assume she never believed to begin with? That's pretty harsh and cruel itself.

This old lady was a secular Jew. Somehow the suffering of her people justified her
position on God. However she never believed God to start with, so her 'conclusion'
that there is no God did not make sense.
And the good can suffer as well as the bad. We are told that life is desperately brief
and that real life begins with eternity.
In any case - this is the God of the bible.

You can take another tack and say there is no God, that the universe created every
thing before it existed, for no reason whatsoever, and it's the survival of the fittest,
that there is nothig higher than yourself to appeal to, that there exists no truth other
than what you make for yourself and so on ----- that's pretty cruel in itself, and leads
to the society we are seeing emerge now - as per my profile below.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

This old lady was a secular Jew. Somehow the suffering of her people justified her
position on God. However she never believed God to start with, so her 'conclusion'
that there is no God did not make sense.
And the good can suffer as well as the bad. We are told that life is desperately brief
and that real life begins with eternity.
In any case - this is the God of the bible.

You can take another tack and say there is no God, that the universe created every
thing before it existed, for no reason whatsoever, and it's the survival of the fittest,
that there is nothig higher than yourself to appeal to, that there exists no truth other
than what you make for yourself and so on ----- that's pretty cruel in itself, and leads
to the society we are seeing emerge now - as per my profile below.

Both views have got to go. We are social animals so "survival of the fittest" (which isn't even a Darwinian concept) isn't how we survive. As social animals we thrive and flourish in groups. And we need to belong for optimal mental health.
And, no, the society we see emerging at large is being more based of empathy and moving away from might is right. Such as we don't have nearly as many wars as we used to, fewer people are living in poverty, food and water are more accessible to more people, and more people are caring less about petty differences. Like how the church still largely hates LGBT people and butt in the private lives of others where they don't belong. Others widely don't care if someone's gay or has sex before marriage. We're becoming more peaceful, tolerant and accepting and society is better off for it.

 

[PruePhillip]

Both views have got to go. We are social animals so "survival of the fittest" (which isn't even a Darwinian concept) isn't how we survive. As social animals we thrive and flourish in groups. And we need to belong for optimal mental health.
And, no, the society we see emerging at large is being more based of empathy and moving away from might is right. Such as we don't have nearly as many wars as we used to, fewer people are living in poverty, food and water are more accessible to more people, and more people are caring less about petty differences. Like how the church still largely hates LGBT people and butt in the private lives of others where they don't belong. Others widely don't care if someone's gay or has sex before marriage. We're becoming more peaceful, tolerant and accepting and society is better off for it.

Sure, there's common ground here.
We survive by co-operation WITHIN groups, but when it comes to OTHER groups, it's war as usual.
In hunter gatherer societies about 25-30% of all young males died of war trauma - usually being
clubbed over the head.
As my profile demonstrates, we aren't becoming a better society.

But here's the thing...

Some people will rightly say they are offended with the Old Testament command to kill or drive
out the Canaanites in the Promise Land. (As it was the Jews did not obey this, and the same
Canaanites became a thorn in the Jewish side for a thousand years.)
BUT.... if you say that the central doctrine of Christianity is the Sermon on the Mount Matt 5,6,7
and the same people will declare they cannot, will not, live by such a moral stricture, ie love
your enemies, do good to them the spitefully use you, if someone seizes your cloak then give
him your coat as well etc etc etc.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

As my profile demonstrates, we aren't becoming a better society.

No, it doesn't. Larger trends and statistics show we are indeed more feed, better watered, have better access to healthcare, and we don't make war nearly as much.

In hunter gatherer societies about 25-30% of all young males died of war trauma

If that number is true how can you believe society isn't getting better when today young men and women aren't often dying anymore, especially due to war?