‘Free will’ is not an excuse for God allowing atrocities.

[The Hammer]

Yes, if Gods existed then it's likely that they wouldn't be concerned with individual humans and what they get up to. But then, if The Gods don't care about us flesh and blood mortals, then why would us flesh and blood mortals care about The Gods?

Because the Gods keep the Universe in working (non-chaotic) order. Something I as an individual cannot do.

So there's that.

 

[Trailblazer]

When I ask believers why their god would allow a serial killer to abuse and murder a dozen innocent children over the course of his lifetime, I am often told that god is helpless to intervene because he gave us all ‘free will’ and that to intervene would be a violation of that ‘free will’. It sounds reasonable at first glance, but this argument doesn’t hold up under scrutiny.

I agree that if god were to snap his metaphorical fingers and magically take away the serial killer’s perverse desires or temporarily paralyze him any time he attempted to commit a wicked act that it would be a violation of free will. But why doesn’t god just snap his metaphorical fingers and give the guy a lethal heat attack? Obviously god deciding when a person’s life will come to an end isn’t a violation of their free will otherwise every single person who has ever died unwillingly has had their free will violated, which pretty much includes everyone except for people who commit suicide, sacrifice their lives for others, or are experiencing unendurable suffering.

So after this guy kills his first innocent child why doesn’t god decide to bring his life to an end? Even if god wanted to give the guy the chance to repent and seek forgiveness for his sins, why didn’t god give him a heart attack after the second innocent victim or the third? Why would a loving and caring god allow this maniac to kill a dozen little children and end up dying peacefully in his sleep in his late 80’s?

It obviously has nothing to do with god being helpless to intervene because of the killer’s free will.

God is infallible so God can never need any excuses since God can never make any mistakes.

God is not responsible for human free will choices and the actions that ensue because God did not commit those actions. This is logic 101 stuff.

God is not helpless to intervene because God is omnipotent but God is not obligated to intervene just because atheists want Him to. An omnipotent God only does what He chooses to do, not what humans want Him to do. This is also logic 101 stuff.

Please try to think about what would happen if God intervened in this world every time something bad was about to happen. It would upset all the free will choices people have.

Unfortunately the evil choices some people make hurt good people but there is no solution to that except to turn evil people into good people. The only way that can be done is for the evil people to follow the Laws that God has revealed through His Messengers.

 

[We Never Know]

If you don't believe in free will then clearly you don't think that free will is a valid argument for why god allows atrocities.

I think one should ask theirself...
A. Would it be better to be completely controlled, have no choices, no thoughts of their own, etc with no atrocities
Or ....
B. Would it be better to have control, have choices, have their own thoughts, etc with atrocities

My choice is B.

 

[robocop (actually)]

If you don't believe in free will then clearly you don't think that free will is a valid argument for why god allows atrocities.

Maybe not, but it is still wise to encourage people to keep a look out and don't be evil. Good and evil are part of God because, like I said, God is complete.

With or without free will, 99.99% of your thinking is the same, so you should still act like you're responsible in almost all circumstances.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

I already answered your question. Like I thought, you didn't understand. That's why I was so frustrated before you even replied.

Hm... there seems to be a misunderstanding between us, because the only post I've read of yours is this one...

God has to be complete in the Universe and that's impossible without creating evil aspects to it as well as good...

Forget it! You all won't understand!

If you have another post in this thread explaining why you believe in God, would you please link it in a reply? If you are referring to the second post I quoted, then I can't see how your answer explains why you believe in God. Would you please elaborate, if that's the post you're referring to? I would appreciate an answer. And thank you, in advance, for answering my question.

 

[robocop (actually)]

Hm... there seems to be a misunderstanding between us, because the only post I've read of yours is this one...



If you have another post in this thread explaining why you believe in God, would you please link it in a reply?

I didn't think we were debating God. I thought we were contemplating why God allows atrocities.

 

[Trailblazer]

If no one had free will, would we all be like robots?

That's what it would amount to wouldn't it?
God programming humans like robots just so they won't do anything bad.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

I didn't think we were debating God. I thought we were contemplating why God allows atrocities.

I guess there was a misunderstanding between us. My apologies for not being clearer in my response. Let me ask you this question, why do you think God is worthy of worship when he allows his creation (mankind) to endure immeasurable pain and suffering?

 

[robocop (actually)]

I guess there was a misunderstanding between us. My apologies for not being clearer in my response. Let me ask you this question, why do you think God is worthy of worship when he allows his creation (mankind) to endure immeasurable pain and suffering?

Because we were made in God's image and being able to have the world in our hands is the only way we can endeavor to be like Him! For instance, Raelians celebrate Aug 6th (the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki) because it was the first time humanity had its own life in its hands.
Because we are part of God's completeness where He has made good and evil also.

 

[robocop (actually)]

Thank you everyone. I feel loved instead of alienated for my beliefs.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

I'm just simply asking.
If people had no free will to chose, who would tell them...for example what their favorite color is? What their favorite food is?

People would be like programmed robots awaiting to be told orders.

What if you're already pre-programmed to like your favorite color and your favorite food, and you just don't know it? Speaking of the Christian God, the bible says that he is all-knowing, all-powerful, and ever-present, which means he would know everything that happened in the past, what happens in the present, and what will happen in the future. The bible also states that God knows our innermost being and knew us before we were born. Therefore, he would know exactly when we were conceived, when we were born, when we took our first step, and when we said our first word. Furthermore, if God is all-knowing, then he would know our every thought and every decision that we have ever made or will ever make in the future. If all of this is true, as the bible testifies, then how is possible for mankind to have free will? If our lives are already predetermined by God, then do we have free will?

 

[We Never Know]

What if you're already pre-programmed to like your favorite color and your favorite food, and you just don't know it? Speaking of the Christian God, the bible says that he is all-knowing, all-powerful, and ever-present, which means he would know everything that happened in the past, what happens in the present, and what will happen in the future. The bible also says that God knows our innermost being and knew us before we were born. Therefore, he would know exactly when you were born, when you took your first step and when you said your first word. Furthermore, if God is all-knowing, then he would know your every thought and every decision that you have ever made or will ever make in the future. If all of this is true, as the bible testifies, then how is possible for mankind to have free will?

Knowing you is not controlling you. However if we are preprogrammed, we are nothing more than a robot who has had it choices programmed in to it.

 

[night912]

If no one had free will, would we all be like robots?

Who says we are not robots or robots are not us? A lot of people always bring up robots and compare them to humans when talking about the lack of free will, but it's not even an equivalent comparison. I think the reason why they use robots as an example is because they are confusing robots with something else. Based on their usage of "freewill," a more accurate term that should be used instead is, puppets.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Knowing you is not controlling you. However if we are preprogrammed, we are nothing more than a robot who has had it choices programmed in to it.

If our lives are predetermined by God to happen exactly the way our lives happen, then how does free will fit into that?

 

[We Never Know]

If our lives are predetermined by God to happen exactly the way our lives happen, then how does free will fit into that?

It wouldn't which is why I said "However if we are preprogrammed, we are nothing more than a robot who has had it choices programmed in to it."

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

It wouldn't which is why I said "However if we are preprogrammed, we are nothing more than a robot who has had it choices programmed in to it."

My apologies for not understanding your initial meaning. It's late and I'm tired, and I'm not thinking clearly right now.

 

[We Never Know]

My apologies for not understanding your initial meaning. It's late and I'm tired, and I'm not thinking clearly right now.

No worries

 

[night912]

Knowing you is not controlling you. However if we are preprogrammed, we are nothing more than a robot who has had it choices programmed in to it.

It is controlling you if he was indeed the creator. It's exactly the same as being preprogrammed, it's an extreme version of it.

 

[epronovost]

God is infallible so God can never need any excuses since God can never make any mistakes.

God is not responsible for human free will choices and the actions that ensue because God did not commit those actions. This is logic 101 stuff.

God is not helpless to intervene because God is omnipotent but God is not obligated to intervene just because atheists want Him to. An omnipotent God only does what He chooses to do, not what humans want Him to do. This is also logic 101 stuff.

Please try to think about what would happen if God intervened in this world every time something bad was about to happen. It would upset all the free will choices people have.

Unfortunately the evil choices some people make hurt good people but there is no solution to that except to turn evil people into good people. The only way that can be done is for the evil people to follow the Laws that God has revealed through His Messengers.

Where you do fail logic 101 is that if a God can intervene and doesn't that deity is still morally responsible for its inaction and if it cannot make bad people good or shield away good people from the bad. After all, my free will is my ability to desire something, not necessarily get it . Technically, in the example of the OP, an omnipotent deity could produce mystical shields and save in a timely fashion all potential victims of murder if he wanted to or he could resurrect them all too. People would still want to kill because you can't change their desires, but they would systematically fail in the endeavor. A God who can do that, or use its incredible wisdom to find a perfect solution to this conundrum that even the smartest man could not imagine let alone enact considering omnipotence. If you have unlimited absolute power and wisdom, you have unlimited and absolute moral responsibility; that's how ethics work.

 

[Nimos]

So after this guy kills his first innocent child why doesn’t god decide to bring his life to an end? Even if god wanted to give the guy the chance to repent and seek forgiveness for his sins, why didn’t god give him a heart attack after the second innocent victim or the third? Why would a loving and caring god allow this maniac to kill a dozen little children and end up dying peacefully in his sleep in his late 80’s?

Why would any God wish for anyone to repent or seek forgiveness in the first place? None of us chose to be born and I doubt anyone chose to be a psychopathic mass murder or child molester by choice. God is like some person hiding behind the curtains looking at people and waiting for them to do wrong, so he can point his finger and say repent!!

If God really thought it was a huge issue, he could simply have made it impossible, just like we don't have wings or can't breath under water, no one think about that as being unfair or a lack of free will. Were humans unable to kill each other like some does, no one would fall to their knees and cry to God for the lack of free will.

Besides that 98% or so of all humans can live perfectly fine lives without going around killing others. So free will in my opinion is nothing but a bad excuse.

And besides that if free will is the excuse then obviously it would also mean that it is impossible for God to intervene in anything, otherwise the argument falls apart.