‘Free will’ is not an excuse for God allowing atrocities.

[KWED]

Exactly right.
Whatever you might think about the possibility of G-d knowing what we will choose is irrelevant to that.

*sigh*
Let's go through it again...
God knows you will choose chicken on a particular night.
You don't even know what is on the menu.
You see the menu, and there is chicken fish and lamb.
You claim you can choose any of those options, but this is obviously wrong because if you chose fish or lamb, god would be wrong, and that is not possible.
Therefore you are only able to choose chicken. Your choice is inevitable. It has been fixed by god's infallible omniscience, even though to you it feels like you can choose any of the options.

If you think it is not possible for G-d to know what we will freely choose [by some unknown means], then that is the issue .. and not whether we are responsible for our actions.

The two things are inextricably linked, along with predestination. If we are unable to change our choice at the moment of choosing we cannot be responsible for that choice.
If Allah actually makes the choice for us, the outcome cannot possibly be our responsibility.
So basically, under the principles of infallible omniscience and predestination, heaven and hell make no sense.
But if we have complete free will, Allah cannot be infallibly omniscient not determine the outcome of all events by decree.
Thus the insoluble paradox.

Life is more serious than that. We are responsible for our actions.

Not if Allah determines the outcome of all events. (Read up on the principle of Qadr. It is part of the six articles of faith so you should be familiar with it.)

If you can't make sense of ominiscience, while retaining free-will, then you can't understand it .. that's fine .. but I can understand.

Au contraire. You are just holding an internally contradictory position - basically "just because we have to do the one thing god has foreseen us doing doesn't mean that we can't do something different".

 

[muhammad_isa]

*sigh*
Let's go through it again...
God knows you will choose chicken on a particular night.

Don't waste your time.
Putin is responsible for his actions, and so are the rest of the world in their response.

If you don't agree that it is possible for G-d to know our futures, without interfering with free-will, so be it !

Not if Allah determines the outcome of all events. (Read up on the principle of Qadr. It is part of the six articles of faith so you should be familiar with it.)

I really don't need to.
I am a Muslim, and I know all about the "sunni" [orthodox] creed.

 

[DNB]

If you'd like to rephrase what you said to reflect your views better, go right ahead.

If you didn't get it the first time....

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

If you didn't get it the first time....

No, it was clear enough the first time: you think that God isn't responsible for Jonathan Edwards or his views.

Exactly how you think God could be not responsible for specific details of his creation and aspects of his "divine plan" (e.g. Jonathan Edwards) is something you're holding close to your chest so far.

 

[DNB]

No, it was clear enough the first time: you think that God isn't responsible for Jonathan Edwards or his views.

Exactly how you think God could be not responsible for specific details of his creation and aspects of his "divine plan" (e.g. Jonathan Edwards) is something you're holding close to your chest so far.

FOR CRYING OUT FLIPPIN' LOUD????
Ashoka left Christianity from the preaching of an alleged Christian, I told her that not all men are acting or speaking under the auspices of God. DO YOU KNOW WHAT AUSPICES MEANS?
The words that come out of their mouths are not endorsed or approved by God. It's called free flippin' will.

If you're talking about God's sovereignty, again, that's out of context for the sole point that was being made

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

FOR CRYING OUT FLIPPIN' LOUD????
Ashoka left Christianity from the preaching of an alleged Christian, I told her that not all men are acting or speaking under the auspices of God. DO YOU KNOW WHAT AUSPICES MEANS?
The words that come out of their mouths are not endorsed or approved by God. It's called free flippin' will.

How do you think free will would absolve God of responsibility for his creation?

If you're talking about God's sovereignty, again, that's out of context for the sole point that was being made

No, the implications of the excuse you gave for God are entirely relevant.

 

[muhammad_isa]

How do you think free will would absolve God of responsibility for his creation?

It doesn't, in the long run.
Everybody knows "the gaffer" has the ultimate responsibility.

However, that does not absolve the responsibility that we hold, whatsoever.

 

[BigBill88]

I see there is the assumption again that God decides all things - its believed the past present and future all exist at once - God sees the past present and future he didn't make a decision for you or intervene and can never be wrong he would see all. If God sees the future then he knows what you choice is going to be he didn't decide for you or intervene even if its the wrong choice..

 

[DNB]

How do you think free will would absolve God of responsibility for his creation?


No, the implications of the excuse you gave for God are entirely relevant.

Arrivederci!

 

[Ashoka]

FOR CRYING OUT FLIPPIN' LOUD????
Ashoka left Christianity from the preaching of an alleged Christian, I told her that not all men are acting or speaking under the auspices of God. DO YOU KNOW WHAT AUSPICES MEANS?
The words that come out of their mouths are not endorsed or approved by God. It's called free flippin' will.

If you're talking about God's sovereignty, again, that's out of context for the sole point that was being made

Drink some ginseng tea and calm down.

 

[DNB]

Drink some ginseng tea and calm down.

And now you're a wicca? My, how astute!

 

[Ashoka]

And now you're a wicca? My, how astute!

"A Wicca" lol. Yes, I changed my faith after much thought. People are allowed to do that, you know. It all goes back to free will.

 

[KWED]

Don't waste your time.
Putin is responsible for his actions, and so are the rest of the world in their response.

If you don't agree that it is possible for G-d to know our futures, without interfering with free-will, so be it !

Once again I notice that you have avoided actually dealing with my arguments. You simply say "No it isn't!" without further explanation. Can't say I'm surprised.

I really don't need to.
I am a Muslim, and I know all about the "sunni" [orthodox] creed.

And yet you deny the core principle of Qadr (that our fate is determined by Allah's decree, and there is nothing we can do to change it)

 

[KWED]

It doesn't, in the long run.
Everybody knows "the gaffer" has the ultimate responsibility.

However, that does not absolve the responsibility that we hold, whatsoever.

If god creates a person for hell, how is that person responsible for ending up in hell?

 

[muhammad_isa]

If god creates a person for hell..

Muslims don't believe that literally.
..some Christians do. [ Calvinists ]

 

[KWED]

I see there is the assumption again that God decides all things - its believed the past present and future all exist at once - God sees the past present and future he didn't make a decision for you or intervene and can never be wrong he would see all. If God sees the future then he knows what you choice is going to be he didn't decide for you or intervene even if its the wrong choice..

The claim isn't that god's infallible omniscience forces anyone to make a particular choice, merely that it makes every choice, action, event inevitable. It must happen exactly as god has foreseen it, despite there seemingly being several possible options.

 

[KWED]

Muslims don't believe that literally.
..some Christians do. [ Calvinists ]

But Allah says he does, in the Quran. So you don't believe the Quran now?

 

[muhammad_isa]

But Allah says he does, in the Quran..

If that's what you understand as a scholar of classical Arabic and Islam..

Me? I do not understand that the Qur'an [ Islam ] teaches that a person can do nothing to save himself from hell fire.

I really don't know why you bother..
All you are doing is saying that the Qur'an is contradictory.
..whereas billions of rational people know that it is not.

 

[KWED]

If that's what you understand as a scholar of classical Arabic and Islam..

I understand that many people are uncomfortable with the concept of people being deliberately created for hell, or deliberately misguided by Allah (which the Quran also clearly states), and so scholars attempt to interpret those passages to mitigate them. No different to how some scholars try to claim that Islam does not condone slavery or domestic violence or using captives for sex, etc. No one likes to think that their sacred cows are actually mangy dogs.

Me? I do not understand that the Qur'an [ Islam ] teaches that a person can do nothing to save himself from hell fire.

"The outcome of all events is determined by Allah's decree. No amount or worry can change this. If something is not meant for you, you can never have it, if it is your destiny, you cannot avoid it" - Umar ibn al Khattab.
Who do you think has a better understanding of what the Quran means? One of the Sahabah and a Rightly Guided Caliph - or some convert off the internet?

I really don't know why you bother..

Everyone needs a hobby. Racetracks aren't open at night.

All you are doing is saying that the Qur'an is contradictory.

It clearly is.

..whereas billions of rational people know that it is not.

No. Muslims believe that it is not contradictory - not least because if they accepted it was they would also have to accept it is false. Most rational people who take the time to examine it can see the contradictions, and other flaws.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..Most rational people who take the time to examine it can see the contradictions, and other flaws.

All you are doing here is saying that Muslims scholars are irrational.