‘Free will’ is not an excuse for God allowing atrocities.

[QuestioningMind]

No, I do not agree because God needs no excuses for anything He does or does not do since God cannot ever make any mistakes since God is infallible.

Well if you think god needs no excuse then you DEFINITELY don't think that humans having free will is a valid excuse for why god allows atrocities. Sure sounds like you agree with the title to me.

 

[QuestioningMind]

The serial killer can think "no i am not going to do it" that is not on God. It is a human problem that we chose to do wrong.

No one claimed that the serial killer failing to not restrain himself is on god. My question is why would god allow him to keep living and committing atrocities once the serial killer has demonstrated he isn't going to change?

 

[Spirit of Light]

No one claimed that the serial killer failing to not restrain himself is on god. My question is why would god allow him to keep living and committing atrocities once the serial killer has demonstrated he isn't going to change?

There are two scenario i can see here.

The 8ne who was murderd had done something wrong in the past them selves, and had to pay the price of dying to "repay their sin"

Or the person murdering had no morality left so evil deeds was the only way, and they will suffer after their death. (Gods plan to make the suffering come but later.

Human beings can not always see the reason for why something happen the way it does.

Could my answer here be wrong, and God does it totally different than I believe? Yes of course

 

[firedragon]

Why would any God wish for anyone to repent or seek forgiveness in the first place? None of us chose to be born and I doubt anyone chose to be a psychopathic mass murder or child molester by choice. God is like some person hiding behind the curtains looking at people and waiting for them to do wrong, so he can point his finger and say repent!!

If God really thought it was a huge issue, he could simply have made it impossible, just like we don't have wings or can't breath under water, no one think about that as being unfair or a lack of free will. Were humans unable to kill each other like some does, no one would fall to their knees and cry to God for the lack of free will.

Besides that 98% or so of all humans can live perfectly fine lives without going around killing others. So free will in my opinion is nothing but a bad excuse.

And besides that if free will is the excuse then obviously it would also mean that it is impossible for God to intervene in anything, otherwise the argument falls apart.

I didnt address your OP.

Anyway, you dont believe in God. And you are addressing Gods nature, and some kind of knowledge God has, which is one single aspect of God. Try and address all.

 

[firedragon]

No one claimed that the serial killer failing to not restrain himself is on god. My question is why would god allow him to keep living and committing atrocities once the serial killer has demonstrated he isn't going to change?

This question cannot be answered. Because the question is addressing God and asking him a "why" question. We will have to speak to God and ask him. Not gonna work. We think we are God.

 

[DNB]

When I ask believers why their god would allow a serial killer to abuse and murder a dozen innocent children over the course of his lifetime, I am often told that god is helpless to intervene because he gave us all ‘free will’ and that to intervene would be a violation of that ‘free will’. It sounds reasonable at first glance, but this argument doesn’t hold up under scrutiny.

I agree that if god were to snap his metaphorical fingers and magically take away the serial killer’s perverse desires or temporarily paralyze him any time he attempted to commit a wicked act that it would be a violation of free will. But why doesn’t god just snap his metaphorical fingers and give the guy a lethal heat attack? Obviously god deciding when a person’s life will come to an end isn’t a violation of their free will otherwise every single person who has ever died unwillingly has had their free will violated, which pretty much includes everyone except for people who commit suicide, sacrifice their lives for others, or are experiencing unendurable suffering.

So after this guy kills his first innocent child why doesn’t god decide to bring his life to an end? Even if god wanted to give the guy the chance to repent and seek forgiveness for his sins, why didn’t god give him a heart attack after the second innocent victim or the third? Why would a loving and caring god allow this maniac to kill a dozen little children and end up dying peacefully in his sleep in his late 80’s?


It obviously has nothing to do with god being helpless to intervene because of the killer’s free will.

This life on earth as we know it, is not the be-all and end-all of all things, i.e. God's will. Therefore, justice will be served in due time.
It is a testing ground in order for God to allow us to seek Him out, and reveal our devotion and sincerity. Any restrictions on our faculties will not divulge who the sheep are from the goats. We must be tested in all manners, and since the quintessence of love is giving one's life for another, death is inevitable under many circumstances, and often premature. And thus, if the martyr who died for another will be rewarded accordingly, we expect that the innocent victim will also be recognized for their docility, and their non-complicit or unwarranted demise. If they are truly innocent, it will not go unnoticed or unmerited, ...and they will be consoled well above their suffering.

 

[QuestioningMind]

There are two scenario i can see here.

The 8ne who was murderd had done something wrong in the past them selves, and had to pay the price of dying to "repay their sin"

Or the person murdering had no morality left so evil deeds was the only way, and they will suffer after their death. (Gods plan to make the suffering come but later.

Human beings can not always see the reason for why something happen the way it does.

Could my answer here be wrong, and God does it totally different than I believe? Yes of course

That's interesting... in your first scenario it sounds as if you don't think that killing little children isn't necessarily wrong, since a person could be killing them because of some 'sin' they committed that needed to be repaid.

In your second scenario, I still wonder IF god decides when a person is born and when they die, why would god wait to punish the murderer and allow them to continue living and killing innocent children?

 

[QuestioningMind]

This life on earth as we know it, is not the be-all and end-all of all things, i.e. God's will. Therefore, justice will be served in due time.
It is a testing ground in order for God to allow us to seek Him out, and reveal our devotion and sincerity. Any restrictions on our faculties will not divulge who the sheep are from the goats. We must be tested in all manners, and since the quintessence of love is giving one's life for another, death is inevitable under many circumstances, and often premature. And thus, if the martyr who died for another will be rewarded accordingly, we expect that the innocent victim will also be recognized for their docility, and their non-complicit or unwarranted demise. If they are truly innocent, it will not go unnoticed or unmerited, ...and consoled well above the suffering.

I'm still not sure if you agree with the title of the thread or not. Are you saying you think god cannot intervene due to the fact that they have free will or do you think he has the ability to intervene, but chooses not to because it would interfere with his test results?

 

[Spirit of Light]

That's interesting... in your first scenario it sounds as if you don't think that killing little children isn't necessarily wrong, since a person could be killing them because of some 'sin' they committed that needed to be repaid.

In your second scenario, I still wonder IF god decides when a person is born and when they die, why would god wait to punish the murderer and allow them to continue living and killing innocent children?

I do not have answers to why God do or dont do. I have my belief.

 

[F1fan]

People who are not mentally sound are of course not blameworthy at all.But I believe religion is the answer. In each age God sends a Messenger to help mankind deal with the problems of that age and advance further.

How can you think religion (your religion, yes?) is the answer when it doesn't have a viable approach, and isn't working?

At one time Jesus taught love thy neighbour, then Muhammad appeared after some 600. years and created the nation and taught to love one’s country.

Now however, because of technological advances the different religions, races and nationalities are forced to come together yet there is no common bond to bring them together so we have had great wars and a Holocaust and various conflicts all due to our differences.

So God shouldn't have created a universe that included people, and those people would invent religions, and then later it would take raw materials and the laws of physics to develop technology, that then caused division.

Why didn't God just send a single, clear revelation instead of letting things get out of control?

Seems like God is the problem because it underestimates humans. God should have created the universe in a way that would help humans unite as they evolved.

So in this age God sent Baha’u’llah with the teaching of the oneness of humanity.

It's a faulty patch, just as flooding the planet was faulty. Just as Jesus' death hasn't solved the world's problems. Perhaps religion causes more problems than it solves. Ever think of that?

This concept of world citizenship is the next stage in humanity’s evolution towards a world civilisation. This is reality. We have the means to accomplish it and we will in time become a flourishing world civilisation.

You don't seem aware of how many nationalists around the planet fear globalism, and are actually getting more extreme due to globalism. They fear the death of their nations, their religions, and their identities. Your words here feeds the division because you are feeding their fears. You expect them to be rational?

Let's note you ignored the question I asked. Would you give up your religion for world peace?

 

[F1fan]

You will have to take that up with God because I have no way of knowing why God created such a brutal world.

So you acknowledge that your God created a brutal world. Don't you think it should make sense if you claim a God exists, and does all the things you claim? Let's note you aren't working with facts, but claims from an alleged Messenger of God.

For you and other atheists, but not for me and other believers, because we do not view God as indifferent. We believe that suffering exists but God is not indifferent to it.

So the children born with defects is something God is not indifferent to, but still designed the world that allows it. You keep trying to have it both ways. And you deny the serious problem your view creates.

 

[PruePhillip]

When I ask believers why their god would allow a serial killer to abuse and murder a dozen innocent children over the course of his lifetime,.

So please explain - where do you DRAW THE LINE?
Your god can 'snap his fingers' to stop a serial killer ---
Can this god stop a SINGLE KILLER? Like, someone about to kill someone in a fight?
And can your god snap fingers and stop someone having a fight?
And can your god stop a man from hating another man?
And finally, can this finger snapping god force everyone to love to one another?

If he can then you would complain that this god is on your back every hour of every day
forever, controlling your very thoughts.

So you would be on religiousforums.com complaining about the loss of your free will.

Which is it?

 

[F1fan]

So please explain - where do you DRAW THE LINE?
Your god can 'snap his fingers' to stop a serial killer ---
Can this god stop a SINGLE KILLER? Like, someone about to kill someone in a fight?
And can your god snap fingers and stop someone having a fight?
And can your god stop a man from hating another man?
And finally, can this finger snapping god force everyone to love to one another?

If he can then you would complain that this god is on your back every hour of every day
forever, controlling your very thoughts.

So you would be on religiousforums.com complaining about the loss of your free will.

Which is it?

God could just make all humans naturally functioning with maturity, tolerance, and sound thinking. There are many folks who are. It doesn't have to make rational and mature people any better than they are, God just has to make all the immature, the intolerant, the mentally ill, the immoral, into decent and well people who will make good decisions. There's just so many people with serious faults. Most can manage to function, some barely, but it is far from consistent IF we were all created.

 

[Trailblazer]

Well if you think god needs no excuse then you DEFINITELY don't think that humans having free will is a valid excuse for why god allows atrocities. Sure sounds like you agree with the title to me.

‘Free will’ is not an excuse for God allowing atrocities."

My point was that God needs no excuses for allowing atrocities.
Why would God be responsible for atrocities He did not commit?
If God is not responsible for the atrocities why would God need to be EXCUSED for the atrocities?

 

[Trailblazer]

No one claimed that the serial killer failing to not restrain himself is on god. My question is why would god allow him to keep living and committing atrocities once the serial killer has demonstrated he isn't going to change?

My question is why would God should God step in and stop the evil that humans do? Give me one good reason why God should do that. Because God is omnipotent is not a reason because there is no reason to think that God should do everything He can do.

 

[F1fan]

‘Free will’ is not an excuse for God allowing atrocities."

My point was that God needs no excuses for allowing atrocities.
Why would God be responsible for atrocities He did not commit?
If God is not responsible for the atrocities why would God need to be EXCUSED for the atrocities?

It's like if you created a zoo, and some animals were in good shape and lived ok in the environments you designed and set up. But there are some animals who lack adequate food. Some lack adequate water. You created their living conditions in a way that diseases are rampant and some animals suffer. You knew this would happen since you are perfect in your designs, so what we see is what you wanted. You are not indifferent to the suffering but you do nothing to fix the problems. You have the power to fix the problems and create a more quality life for all animals, but you don't.

 

[F1fan]

My question is why would God should God step in and stop the evil that humans do?

Why did God create the evil in the first place? It did. It's on God.

 

[PruePhillip]

God could just make all humans naturally functioning with maturity, tolerance, and sound thinking. There are many folks who are. It doesn't have to make rational and mature people any better than they are, God just has to make all the immature, the intolerant, the mentally ill, the immoral, into decent and well people who will make good decisions. There's just so many people with serious faults. Most can manage to function, some barely, but it is far from consistent IF we were all created.

So it's a HALF GOD.
You are seeking to find some mid way point - a half controlling god.
Sort of letting everyone do what they want, but not have to pay any price for it.
But of course, many killers are rational, tolerant and mature people who figure
out they can committ a crime, or deal with some issue, by killing.
And is this god going to stop killing but allow kidnapping, torture, rape etc.?
And how will god stop immaturity if it's part of growing up and learning?
And if god stops mental illness, will he also have to stop all forms of illness?

Read the Sermon on the Mount in Matt 5,6 and 7. That is God's standard. We
are all expected to live by it. The man who proclaimed such a soaring standard
of behavior (forgiving your enemies, turning the other cheek etc.) was killed for
what he said, and today his doctrine is considered more offensive than ever.

 

[Trailblazer]

So you acknowledge that your God created a brutal world. Don't you think it should make sense if you claim a God exists, and does all the things you claim?

What things do I claim that God does? I never claimed that God does anything except sending Messengers.

Let's note you aren't working with facts, but claims from an alleged Messenger of God.

No, this has nothing to do with the claims of a Messenger, it is based upon what I see in the brutal world.

So the children born with defects is something God is not indifferent to, but still designed the world that allows it. You keep trying to have it both ways. And you deny the serious problem your view creates.

Just because God designed a world that allows genetic defects that does not mean that God is indifferent to them. That is a non sequitur.

 

[Trailblazer]

Why did God create the evil in the first place? It did. It's on God.

God did not create evil. Humans are fully responsible for all the evil in the world.
It's all on humans because they do all the evil. God does nothing evil.