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100 Reasons why Evolution is Stupid - Dr. Hovind

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If I found out that what I read in the Bible couldn't be evaluated as true through scientific means I would definitely have good reason to believe that the rest of it was also a load of baloney.
And this is exactly why you are a Creationist, and the very reason I suspect most are. You have no faith. Science-denial does not equal faith. It equals no-faith. Faith is not rooted and grounded in the things you believe. It is rooted and ground in spirit, in the heart, in your being. Not the way you organize understanding data in cognitive models, aka, 'beliefs'!

Hence since you fear science, you are unrooted, and ungrounded. If the balance of your beliefs shifts, you will flip the coin over and do the exact same thing on the opposite side of the coin, fully trusting science is the authority for your beliefs and rejecting religion. Fundametalist believers and fundamentalist atheists are identical believers. That's what you fear becoming, but be assured, you're on that path.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I notice that you address Hovind as "Dr.." Just so you know and to give you some insight into the typical lack of ethical behavior in the creationist camp; consider.
"Having a website called "Dr. Dino" has provoked some academics to look closely at how Hovind presents his education and credentials. Chemistry professor Karen Bartelt has said that it is "very unusual for a person with a Ph.D., even a real one, to list oneself in the phonebook as "Dr Hovind", as Hovind has done." [emphasis in original]. Barbara Forrest, a professor of philosophy, expert on the history of creationism and activist in the creation-evolution controversy, wrote that Hovind's lack of academic training makes it impossible to engage him on a professional level.

Other critics of Hovind have pointed out that Patriot Bible University is a diploma mill, as it has unreasonably low graduation requirements, lack of sufficient faculty or educational standards, and a suspicious tuition scheme."
Source: the Wikipedia web site you linked to.
And here's the famous Patriot Bible University, Hovind's alma mater
PatriotU_Crop.jpg


Enough said?

I should do that. I never knew it was so easy. Thanks.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
And this is exactly why you are a Creationist, and the very reason I suspect most are. You have no faith. Science-denial does not equal faith. It equals no-faith. Faith is not rooted and grounded in the things you believe. It is rooted and ground in spirit, in the heart, in your being. Not the way you organize understanding data in cognitive models, aka, 'beliefs'!

Hence since you fear science, you are unrooted, and ungrounded. If the balance of your beliefs shifts, you will flip the coin over and do the exact same thing on the opposite side of the coin, fully trusting science is the authority for your beliefs and rejecting religion. Fundametalist believers and fundamentalist atheists are identical believers. That's what you fear becoming, but be assured, you're on that path.

Wow! You know a lot. I wonder why you won't answer my question though. Isn't it unscientific to believe in something that had no start?
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Oh, and another thing. Someone said a process needs no power. That is science? Someone said it might have been a chemical reaction. Physics An equal and opposite force exerted* by a body against a force acting* upon it.

"Exert", a noun or a verb please?
"Acting" a noun or a verb please?

It takes a verb for a molecule to function. Do you know of anything at all that can function without a verb please? If you do I suggest you 1. patent it quickly and 2. watch your back

Four little words proving POWER. Where did it come from? Where?
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Now to address Savagewind's concern, as best I can in a limited post. The others are correct in what they say about making a distinction between abiogenisis and the theory of evolution, as they are not one and the same. But to the point you are getting at underlying all of this is a question of if all that we see and experience, from the stars and the planets, the oceans and the animals that inhabit them and the land above, from the sea-sponge to you and me sitting here conversing over thousands of miles in our respective homes, that if all of this is 'only' a natural process, doesn't this mean God is unnecessary? Doesn't it boil down to that question for you, regardless of arguing and debating how the particular mechanics this process work?

First to look at evolution in the broad sense of the word. Evolution is simply a process that is responsible for change over time. When science speaks of the Theory of Evolution that is speaking of the process of evolution happening within biological organisms responsible for the diversity of animal species. But the fact of evolution, not the theory of evolution which is a model of speciation, but the fact of evolution, like the fact of wind, or the fact of air, or the fact of gravity; the fact of evolution is responsible for everything that self-organizes, from the stars and the planets to you and me. Evolution is just another word for development. You believe in development, surely?

As we develop, as things evolve, the add more and more to themselves. What defines development, or evolution, is this. It is a process of transcending and including what came before the new emergent state. It builds upon the previous level, to the new level. A 20 year old doesn't suddenly burst into existence, but rather moves through a process of development from an infant to an adult, from an acorn to an oak tree. Change, over time, transcending and including what came before it. In the case of you and me as humans, it looks roughly like this: from quarks and atoms, to molecules, to cells, to bodies, to mind, to soul, to spirit. Within me, within this collection of cells and molecules and atoms, I exist. I am star dust, living and breathing with lungs walking on a planet created our of the bits of exploded stars, gathered together through a process of evolution, shaped and molded into me, and into you who know sit talking to one another across the spaces.

Boy, if that doesn't speak of God, of that which comes into being out of nothing, I don't know what does! :) This entire thing, every moment, every shift and change and rearrangement is creation. Everything, every thought, every molecule is constantly evolving into newer forms that sing the praises of this "Creator", that arises within us as we looking into the beauty of the vast and infinite Ocean of matter and mind and spirit.

Does this making believing a literal reading of the Bible in Genesis something to reject? Well, of course, but who on earth said it was meant to be read literally in the first place? The way you read things and understood the world when you were six years old, is it the same as you do now as an adult? Of course not, you've added too much awareness to your evolving, developing self. It doesn't mean you reject God. It means you grow your beliefs up. That's all.

The how of how life came up out of matter in what is called abiogensis, is simply a matter of trying to map out how that process of change occured/occurs. But that is irrelevant to the question of God. God is the Ground of Being, from which all these processes emerge and run their course creating everything that is, as it reaches towards that Source on its path across the cosmos, in it constant movements of being and becoming.

Process that for awhile before responding.
 
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savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The how of how life came up out of matter in what is called abiogensis, is simply a matter of trying to map out how that process of change occured/occurs
Which process of change?

You and she keep saying I do not believe in the process of change called evolution, not abiogenesis by the way, but I do! That is your argument. I actually believe that no life to life is a developmental change.
 
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savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I found the way, the truth and the life. When it is proved mathematically, experimentally, and when life is discovered to need no power, then the way, the truth and the life which is The Word of God is not true anymore. That is what creationists are fighting for. They are fighting for a continuation to forever of The Word of God. "Amar" which means "to say" Genesis 1:3, Matthew 24:35
 
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savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Because Populations evolve not individuals.

Individuals do not evolve? Hm? Ever? What is it called when an individual experiences chromosome change?

Natural selection is the only known cause of adaptation, but not the only known cause of evolution. Other, nonadaptive causes of evolution include mutation and genetic drift
Is this quote from Wiki not true?
 

FranklinMichaelV.3

Well-Known Member
I found the way, the truth and the life. When it is proved mathematically, experimentally, and when life is discovered to need no power, then the way, the truth and the life which is The Word of God is not true anymore. That is what creationists are fighting for. They are fighting for a continuation to forever of The Word of God. "Amar" which means "to say" Genesis 1:3, Matthew 24:35

No they are fighting for their interpretation of the Word of God.

The Word of God will always last...it's reflected in how we treat each other, in how we search for a way to work together towards common goals. It's the rituals that people want to preserve. But remember a kingdom divided amongst itself cannot stand.
 

FranklinMichaelV.3

Well-Known Member
Individuals do not evolve? Hm? Ever? What is it called when an individual experiences chromosome change?

Is this quote from Wiki not true?

Mutations within a population.

Mutations can lead to evolution. But an individual with a mutation isn't evolving independently of his entire species. It happens and others can correct me if I'm wrong, when that particular mutation can be passed along to the offspring and continual accumulation of the disease start to change that particular group.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
No they are fighting for their interpretation of the Word of God.

The Word of God will always last...it's reflected in how we treat each other, in how we search for a way to work together towards common goals. It's the rituals that people want to preserve. But remember a kingdom divided amongst itself cannot stand.

OK! I am with you agreeing they should not fight for their interpretation of it. But I am not on board with you fighting for your interpretation of it.

The Word of God will not last if the population of the world evolves into nonbelievers, will it? It is what I can see Alceste wishing for, and many others too.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Mutations within a population.

Mutations can lead to evolution. But an individual with a mutation isn't evolving independently of his entire species. It happens and others can correct me if I'm wrong, when that particular mutation can be passed along to the offspring and continual accumulation of the disease start to change that particular group.

OK so are you saying a mutation only counts for selection if it is duplicated within a population? How many simultaneous mutations within a population need be?
 

FranklinMichaelV.3

Well-Known Member
Also there are things that replicate and give "birth" to more things that aren't alive. Viruses which rely on DNA and RNA and Prions which are protein capsules. These are things that do not follow the standard model of being alive, yet still replicate and duplicate.
 
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FranklinMichaelV.3

Well-Known Member
OK! I am with you agreeing they should not fight for their interpretation of it. But I am not on board with you fighting for your interpretation of it.

The Word of God will not last if the population of the world evolves into nonbelievers, will it? It is what I can see Alceste wishing for, and many others too.

Then you limit the word of God. I've made this argument several times before, as a creator omnipotent, omniscience, and omnipresent, there would be no way to escape Gods Word, because it's not a thing it's a continuous act. It's reflected in our actions, regardless if you believe it or not, you still act through it. Because it is the source that so many seek. There is obviously something in humans that drive them towards a truth, and the one truth that has remained consistent in all religions and all aspects of society, is that we should treat others as we want to be treated. No matter where you go there is an understanding that unity is our central goal. It's why we form organizations, it's why we try to bring people into our organizations. It's about working as a Unit, like everything in life does. It's been the main reason life has survived this long.

At least that is what I think.
 

FranklinMichaelV.3

Well-Known Member
OK so are you saying a mutation only counts for selection if it is duplicated within a population? How many simultaneous mutations within a population need be?

It's a factor, but it's not the only factor. I'm not clear on how many mutations would be needed, nor would I be able to say when it constitutes evolution. However an individual with a mutation, isn't an evolved individual. Mutations do not affect evolution, but are an agent through which evolution can work through.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Then you limit the word of God. I've made this argument several times before, as a creator omnipotent, omniscience, and omnipresent, there would be no way to escape Gods Word, because it's not a thing it's a continuous act. It's reflected in our actions, regardless if you believe it or not, you still act through it. Because it is the source that so many seek. There is obviously something in humans that drive them towards a truth, and the one truth that has remained consistent in all religions and all aspects of society, is that we should treat others as we want to be treated. No matter where you go there is an understanding that unity is our central goal. It's why we form organizations, it's why we try to bring people into our organizations. It's about working as a Unit, like everything in life does. It's been the main reason life has survived this long.

At least that is what I think.

I agree. But I personally need God's Word to know how I want to be treated. Do you see? You think you are doing everyone a kindness saying Genesis is nothing more than a fairy tale. You will fight to the death defending your stance that no one actually said "let it be". "Unity is our* central goal". Oh no! No way. "Your word is truth" and "the truth will set you free". That is what I WANT TO believe.

* who is "our" please? Do you know there are a very many "ours"? When "ours" clash, what do you get, do you suppose? I shall answer you. Conflict. Do you know the word used at Armageddon is not war but conflict? People say it is coming. WRONG. Other people say it is not real. STUPID. It is happening all around us right now. It has everything to do with the "ours" you speak of.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Mutations do not affect evolution, but are an agent through which evolution can work through.
Have you been private messaged yet TO STOP? You are not helping your side imo.
 
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