13:7 implies there is a guide living right now.

[InvestigateTruth]

قال الإمام الصادق عليه السلام: "مَنْ سَرَّهُ أَنْ يَكُونَ مِنْ أَصْحَابِ الْقَائِمِ فَلْيَنْتَظِرْ وَلْيَعْمَلْ بِالْوَرَعِ وَمَحَاسِنِ الأَخْلَاقِ وَهُوَ مُنْتَظِرٌ، فَإِنْ مَاتَ وَقَامَ الْقَائِمُ بَعْدَهُ كَانَ لَهُ مِنَ الأَجْرِ مِثْلُ أَجْرِ مَنْ أَدْرَكَهُ، فَجِدُّوا وَانْتَظِرُوا هَنِيئًا لَكُمْ أَيَّتُهَا الْعِصَابَةُ الْمَرْحُومَةُ.

Imam al-Sadiq (peace be upon him) said:

"Whoever is pleased to be among the companions of the Qa'im should wait for him and act with piety and good morals while waiting. If he dies and the Qa'im rises after him, he will have the reward of one who witnessed him. So strive and wait; congratulations to you, O group of the ones shown mercy."


This is why, people of the past were encouraged to pray regarding Imam Mahdi. Not that He was physically on earth.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

السَّمَاء رِزْقُكُمْ وَمَا تُوعَدُونَ
فَوَرَبِّ ٱلسَّمَاۤءِ وَٱلۡأَرۡضِ إِنَّهُۥ لَحَقࣱّ مِّثۡلَ مَاۤ أَنَّكُمۡ تَنطِقُونَ​

“In heaven is your sustenance and whatever you are promised.
By the Lord of the heaven and earth, it is as true as the fact that you speak.
” (Surah Zariyat 51:22-23)

It is mentioned in Ghaibat of Shaykh Tusi that Ibne Abbas said about this verse:

“It implies the rise of the Qaim of Aale Muhammad (a.s.).”

This verse of the Quran, implies that, the Qaim would be in Heaven untill Allah Manifests Him on earth.
This verse is the Evidence for authenticity of Hadithes of Jabulqa!

 

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This is from Nahjul Balagha, sermon 182:

I advise you, creatures of Allah, to practise fear of Allah Who gave you good clothing and bestowed an abundance of sustenance on you. If there was anyone who could secure a ladder to everlasting life or a way to avoid death it was Sulayman ibn Dawud (p. b. u. h. ) who was given control over the domain of the jinn and men along with prophethood and great position (before Allah), but when he finished what was his due in food (of this world) and exhausted his (fixed) time the bow of destruction shot him with arrow of death. His houses became vacant and his habitations became empty. Another group of people inherited them. Certainly, the by-gone centuries have a lesson for you.

أُوصِيكُمْ عِبَادَ اللهِ بِتَقْوَى اللهِ الَّذِي أَلْبَسَكُمُ الرِّيَاشَ، وَأَسْبَغَ عَلَيْكُمُ الْمَعَاشَ; فَلَوْ أَنَّ أَحَداً يَجِدُ إلَى الْبَقَاءِ سُلَّماً، أَوْ لِدَفْعِ الْمَوْتِ سَبِيلاً، لَكَانَ ذلِكَ سُلَيْمانُ بْنُ دَاوُدَ(عليه السلام)، الَّذِي سُخِّرَ لَهُ مُلْكُ الْجِنِّ وَالاْنْسِ، مَعَ النُّبُوَّهِ وَعَظِيمِ الزُّلْفَةِ، فَلَمَّا اسْتَوْفَى طُعْمَتَهُ، وَاسْتَكْمَلَ مُدَّتَهُ، رَمَتْهُ قِسِيُّ الْفَنَاءِ بِنِبَالِ المَوْتِ، وَأَصْبَحَتِ الدِّيَارُ مِنْهُ خَالِيَةً، وَالْمَسَاكِنُ مُعَطَّلَةً، وَرِثَهَا قَوْمٌ آخَرُونَ، وَإِنَّ لَكُمْ فِي الْقُرُونِ السَّالِفَةِ لَعِبْرَةً!

Where are the Amalekites1 and the sons of Amalekites? Where are the Pharaohs?2 Where are the people of the cities of ar-Rass3 who killed the prophets, destroyed the traditions of the divine messengers and revived the traditions of the despots? Where are those who advanced with armies, defeated thousands, mobilised forces and populated cities?

أَيْنَ الْعَمَالِقَةُ وَأَبْنَاءُ آلْعَمَالِقَةِ! أَيْنَ الْفَرَاعِنَةُ وَأَبْنَاءُ الْفَرَاعِنَةِ! أَيْنَ أَصْحَابُ مَدَائِنِ الرَّسِّ الَّذِينَ قَتَلُوا النَّبِيِّينَ، وَأَطْفَأُوا سُنَنَ الْمُرْسَلِينَ، وَأَحْيَوْا سُنَنَ الْجَبَّارِينَ! أَيْنَ الَّذِينَ سَارُوا بِالْجُيُوشِ، وَهَزَمُوا الاُلُوفَ، وَعَسْكَرُوا الْعَسَاكِرَ، وَمَدَّنُوا الْمَدَائِنَ؟!

A part of the same sermon about the Imam al-Mahdi​

منها:

He will be wearing the armour of wisdom, which he will have secured with all its conditions, such as full attention towards it, its (complete) knowledge and exclusive devotion to it. For him it is like a thing which he had lost and which he was then seeking, or a need which he was trying to fulfil. If Islam is in trouble he will feel forlorn like a traveller and like a (tired) camel beating the end of its tail and with its neck flattened on the ground. He is the last of Allah's proofs and one of the vicegerents of His prophets.

قَدْ لَبِسَ لِلْحِكْمَةِ جُنَّتَهَا، وَأَخَذَهَا بِجَمِيعِ أَدَبِهَا، مِنَ الاْقْبَالِ عَلَيهَا، وَالْمَعْرِفِةِ بهَا، وَالتَّفَرُّغِ لَهَا، فَهِيَ عِنْدَ نَفْسِهِ ضَالَّتُهُ الَّتِي يَطْلُبُهَا، وَحَاجَتُهُ الَّتِي يَسْأَلُ عَنْهَا، فَهُوُ مُغْتَرِبٌ إِذَا اغْتَرَبَ الاْسْلاَمُ، وَضَرَبَ بِعَسِيبِ ذَنَبِهِ وَأَلْصَقَ الاْرْضَ بِجِرَانِهِ، بَقِيَّةٌ مِنْ بَقَايَا حُجَّتِهِ، خَلِيفَةٌ مِنْ خَلاَئِفِ أَنْبِيَائِهِ.

Alternative Sources for Sermon 182​

(1) Al-Wasiti, ‘Uyun al-hikam, see al-Majlisi, vol. 77, 310;

(2) Ibn al-'Athir, al-Nihayah, II, 145, 198.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Salam

There are many ways to prove the meaning. One is to look at similar verses and interpret it through similar expressions. Another is to see the verse by flow in the chapter and let the first impression take place and not to twist it out of it's place.

Another is to see what hadiths say about it. From my research, all hadiths from Prophet (a) or Ahlulbayt (a) have talked about the verse in a way that implies there is a guide living right now. This is true of Sunni and Shia hadiths of ALL sects including Zaidis.

Inshallah, I will systemically show from other angles to, verses that compliment this theme as well (for example, the verses about witnesses).

قلت لابي عبدالله : « إنما أنت منذر ولكل قوم هاد » فقال : رسول الله المنذر وعلى الهادي ، يا با محمد هل من هاد اليوم؟ فقلت : بلى جعلت فداك ، ما زال منكم هاد من بعد هاد حتى دفعت إليك ، فقال : رحمك الله يا با محمد لو كانت إذا نزلت آية على رجل ثم مات ذلك الرجل ماتت الآية مات الكتاب ، لكنه حي بجري فيمن بقي كما جرى فيمن مضى


Here's the translation of the hadith:

I said to Abu Abdullah (Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq): "Indeed, you are a warner, and for every people, there is a guide." He said: "The Messenger of Allah was the warner, and Ali is the guide. O Abu Muhammad, is there a guide today?" I replied: "Yes, may I be your ransom, there has always been a guide from you after another guide until it reached you." He said: "May Allah have mercy on you, O Abu Muhammad. If it were such that when a verse was revealed to a man and then that man died, the verse would also die and the Book would die. But the Book is alive and runs in those who remain just as it ran in those who have passed."

The Book of God is "Alive", and is "the Guide".
It ran through those who remain.
Not that, a person who is the chosen Imam of God, is always alive.


Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 55, Number 651:

Narrated Abu Huraira: I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "I am the nearest of all the people to the son of Mary, and all the prophets are paternal brothers, and there has been no prophet between me and him (i.e. Jesus)."

Also in Sunan Abi Dawud 4324:

Narrated Abu Hurayrah:

The Prophet (ﷺ) said: There is no prophet between me and him, that is, Jesus (ﷺ). He will descent (to the earth).

Also, Sahih al-Bukhari 3442
Narrated Abu Huraira:

I heard Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) saying, "I am the nearest of all the people to the son of Mary, and all the prophets are paternal brothers, and there has been no prophet between me and him (i.e. Jesus).

If it means a Person is the guide between people, then who was the guide beyween Jesus and Muhammad, According to Quran and Hadith? I don't want things made up. But what does Hadith and Quran says.


The Book itself is the guide for the people, for its period it is appointed for. (To Each Age its Book 13:38)


Hadith of Thaghalayn also confirms this.

 

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The hadith is saying if there isn't a guide right now, the Quran would be a dead book, since it talks about guidance in form a guide in all times starting with the Prophet (s) for Muslims then Ali (a) after him.

 

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To me, even from this prayer it is clear:


ٱلطَّالِبِينَ رِضَاكَ بِمُنَاصَحَتِهِ
alttalibina ridaka bimunasahatihi
and seek Your pleasure by means of acting sincerely to him,

حَتَّىٰ تَحْشُرَنَا يَوْمَ ٱلْقِيَامَةِ فِي أَنْصَارِهِ
hatta tahshurana yawma alqiyamati fi ansarihi
so that You will gather us on the Resurrection Day with his supporters,


Day of Resurrection, is Day of appearance of the Qaim, and Ummah prays, that, on the Day of His rise, you act sincerely towards Him.

How could anyone who reads this prayer not see that? God, what have you done to them? You have put a veil on their eyes!

The prayer talks about being guided by the hands of the guide.

 

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In Du'a Nudba it says Adam, Nuh, Ibrahim, Musa, and Isa who were all selected successors who were guardians of the religion were the way to God. Then by reward verses and ayat tatheer it concludes Mohammad (s) and his family (a) were the way to God.

Why didn't Du'a Nudba talk about the books they were revealed and say those books were the way to God?

As for Isa (a) successors, there was two type: one sent by God and one not sent by God but selected in this world. The latter had a fallible successorship that was volatile and entrusted to the people to keep a guard on it and keep it in check.

The one sent by God after Isa (a) before Mohammad (s) was Elyas (a). The one selected by God but not chosen pre-world is Simon (a) who is a disciple. He doesn't have rank of an Imam in the sense Ibrahim (a) prayed would be in his offspring. He rather is a general leader and succeeds Isa (a) in leading people outwardly.

As for the light type guidance and providing miracles and infallible guidance, that was for Elyas (a) but he was hidden.

Reflecting over the two places Elyas (a) appears keeping in mind that Elyas (a) is alive per the Gospels and Tanakh, and you will see this to be the case in Quran.

As for Simon (a) - the hadith say he is successor, but what needs to be kept in mind, is that he was not one of the Twelve Captains of the covenant nor is he of the Ahlulbayt of Musa (a) and Haroun (a) like Isa (a) is.

 

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In Du'a Nudba along with linking 13:7 with Ali (a) being the guide after Mohammad (s), it also says regarding Imam Mahdi (a) "to guide through him your friends", and says "So O God o help of those who seek help, help your tried servant (oneself) and let him see his master", so we pray to see him. And it says to Imam Mahdi (a) "is there a way o son of Ahmad so that we meet?" and says at the end to drink of the cup of the Messenger (s) through Imam Mahdi (a) hands as well.

There is also this from Sahifa Sajjadiya:


أللَّهُمَّ إنَّكَ أَيَّدْتَ دِينَكَ فِي كُلِّ أَوَان
al-laahum-ma in-naka ay-yat-ta deenaka
152.O God, surely You hast confirmed Your religion in all times

بِإمَام أَقَمْتَهُ عَلَماً لِعِبَادِكَ وَّمَنارَاً فِي بِلاَدِكَ،
biimaamin aqam-tahoo a'lamal-lii'baadika wa manaaran fee? bilaadik
153.with an Imam whom You hast set up as a guidepost to Your servants and a lighthouse in Your lands,

بَعْدَ أَنْ وَصَلْتَ حَبْلَهُ بِحَبْلِكَ،
baa'-da aw-was'al-ta h'ab-lahoo bih'ab-lik
154.after his cord has been joined to Your cord!

وَجَعَلْتَهُ الذَّرِيعَةَ إلَى رِضْوَانِكَ،
wa jaa'l-tahud'-d'areea'ta ilaa riz''-waanik
155.You hast appointed him the means to Your good pleasure,

وَافْتَرَضْتَ طَاعَتَهُ، وَحَذَّرْتَ مَعْصِيَتَهُ،
waf-taraz''-ta t'aaa'tah wa h'ad'-d'ar-ta maa'-s'eeatah
156.made obeying him obligatory, cautioned against disobeying him,

وَأَمَرْتَ بِامْتِثَالِ أوَاِمِرِه وَالانْتِهَآءِ عِنْدَ نَهْيِهِ،
wa amar-ta bim-tithaali awaamirih walintihaaa-i i'nda nah-yih
157.and commanded following his commands, abandoning what he has prohibited,

وَأَلاَّ يَتَقَدَّمَهُ مُتَقَدِّمٌ، وَلاَ يَتَأَخَّرَ عَنْهُ مُتَأَخِّرٌ،فَهُوَ عِصْمَةُ اللاَّئِذِينَ
wa al-laa yataqad-damahoo mutaqad-dim wa laa yataakh-khara a'n-hoo mutaakh-khir fa huwa i's'-matul-laaa-id'een
158.and that no forward-goer go ahead of him or back-keeper keep back from him! So he is the preservation of the shelter-seekers,

، وَكَهْفُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ، وَعُرْوَةُ الْمُتَمَسِّكِينَ، وَبَهَآءُ الْعَالَمِينَ.
wa kah-ful-moo-mineen wa u'r-watul-mutamas-sikeen wa bahaaa-ul-a'alameen
159.the cave of the faithful, the handhold of the adherents, and the radiance of the worlds!

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The prayer talks about being guided by the hands of the guide.

The Prayer is about when the Qaim have rised. Since the time of the Rise of Qaim was kept secret, it was not known to Shia, when He would rise, thus, the Shia is told to pray, in case they happen to be alive at the time of His Rise.
The Prayer is about being aware, and ask God, that if they are at the time of Rise of the Qaim, they recognize Him, and be among His helpers.
And if they are not living at the time of Qaim, still, they are rewarded for their Prayer, just as if they were.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The hadith is saying if there isn't a guide right now, the Quran would be a dead book, since it talks about guidance in form a guide in all times starting with the Prophet (s) for Muslims then Ali (a) after him.

The Hadith is clear what it says.
It says, the Book is alive.
It goes with the Hadith of Thaghalayn.

 

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The Prayer is about when the Qaim have rised. Since the time of the Rise of Qaim was kept secret, it was not known to Shia, when He would rise, thus, the Shia is told to pray, in case they happen to be alive at the time of His Rise.
The Prayer is about being aware, and ask God, that if they are at the time of Rise of the Qaim, they recognize Him, and be among His helpers.
And if they are not living at the time of Qaim, still, they are rewarded for their Prayer, just as if they were.

That makes no sense to make them pray to be guided by him while he was not here. It's not giving a false hope. You should see the whole Du'a too, it refers to protecting him and that he annihilates all disbelief and it's leaders.

 

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The Hadith is clear what it says.
It says, the Book is alive.
It goes with the Hadith of Thaghalayn.

I agree it's clear, but your interpretation is far off. Imam Baqir (a) is saying the Quran is for all times, and so if something in the book was revealed regarding a person and that person died, then the book would be dead too, but the book is alive. The hadith starts with the fact Ali (a) is the guide after Mohammad (s) and that currently there is a guide. He's saying it in a way that shows there will constantly be a guide, and if there isn't a guide on earth, the Quran would be a dead book since many of it's verses are about guidance by the hand of a guide from God.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

That makes no sense to make them pray to be guided by him while he was not here. It's not giving a false hope. You should see the whole Du'a too, it refers to protecting him and that he annihilates all disbelief and it's leaders.

I didn't make that up.
What I explained was from another Hadith and Dua which I already posted.
You may want to see post #39 and #40.

I particularly quote one of the Hadithes again


176- Al-Kafi: It is narrated from Ali bin Muhammad from Salih bin Abi
Hammad from Muhammad bin Abdullah bin Mahran from Abdul Malik bin Bashir
from Itham bin Sulaiman from Muawiyah bin Ammar from Abi Abdullah Imam Ja’far Sadiq (a.s.) that he said:

“If one of you is desirous to see the period of Imam Qaim (a.s.) he should also pray for his deliverance, because the Almighty Allah has sent Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.s.) as mercy and kindness and He would send Imam Qaim(a.s.) for severity.”

Notice, Imam Sadiq surely knew, Qaim will rise long time later, yet, He is saying to His followers, that they should pray for His deliverance.

Was it a vain hope?

No, because, by teaching to pray for deliverance, He is helping God to keep the expectation alive, so, whenever He rises, the Shia in His time are prepared to help.

But, if they happened not to be in His time, they will be rewarded anyways:

Imam al-Sadiq (peace be upon him) said:

"Whoever is pleased to be among the companions of the Qa'im should wait for him and act with piety and good morals while waiting. If he dies and the Qa'im rises after him, he will have the reward of one who witnessed him. So strive and wait; congratulations to you, O group of the ones shown mercy."


Whatever I say, is based on Hadithes and verses. I don't make up anything.
Just because we may not like something, it does not mean, it is false. A lot of times when we don’t like something we say, it doesn't make sense.

 

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I didn't make that up.
What I explained was from another Hadith and Dua which I already posted.
You may want to see post #39 and #40.

I particularly quote one of the Hadithes again


176- Al-Kafi: It is narrated from Ali bin Muhammad from Salih bin Abi
Hammad from Muhammad bin Abdullah bin Mahran from Abdul Malik bin Bashir
from Itham bin Sulaiman from Muawiyah bin Ammar from Abi Abdullah Imam Ja’far Sadiq (a.s.) that he said:

“If one of you is desirous to see the period of Imam Qaim (a.s.) he should also pray for his deliverance, because the Almighty Allah has sent Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.s.) as mercy and kindness and He would send Imam Qaim(a.s.) for severity.”

Notice, Imam Sadiq surely knew, Qaim will rise long time later, yet, He is saying to His followers, that they should pray for His deliverance.

Was it a hope vain?

No, because, by teaching to pray for deliverance, He is helping God to keep the expectation alive, so, whenever He rises, the Shia in His time are prepared to help.

But, if they happened not to be in His time, they will be rewarded anyways:

Imam al-Sadiq (peace be upon him) said:

"Whoever is pleased to be among the companions of the Qa'im should wait for him and act with piety and good morals while waiting. If he dies and the Qa'im rises after him, he will have the reward of one who witnessed him. So strive and wait; congratulations to you, O group of the ones shown mercy."


Whatever I say, is based on Hadithes and verses. I don't make up anything.
Just because we may not like something, it does not mean, it is false. A lot of times when we don’t like something we say, it doesn't make sense.

You do make up everything. It's a headache constantly correcting your circumstantial interpretations. From now you have to prove your interpretations, not me constantly correcting them.

Do you know the fallacy of excluding other legitimate interpretations? You can't show one and say well it must be it, until you think of another one. This is unfair. It means I constantly have to correct while you never prove your interpretation. You have to show the other interpretations are not legitimate.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

You do make up everything. It's a headache constantly correcting your circumstantial interpretations. From now you have to prove your interpretations, not me constantly correcting them.

Do you know the fallacy of excluding other legitimate interpretations? You can't show one and say well it must be it, until you think of another one. This is unfair. It means I constantly have to correct while you never prove your interpretation. You have to show the other interpretations are not legitimate.

No body can prove anything in an absolute sense.

All can be done, is to see, whose belief matches the Hadithes and the Quran.

I already showed Hadithes that the Qaim could not have a physical existence on earth, until the time of Rise at the End Time, since your Imams said He is in Jabulqa.

You keep saying, He was born and is on earth, hidden somewhere .

I showed you, according to Hadith, the two disappearances of the Qiam, is after His rise, Not before.
So, your belief that the Qaim disappeared before He even Rises, is in contradiction with such Hadithes.
Moreover, there are many Hadithes that specifies the duration of disappearances. None of them match with your belief that the Qaim already had a minor and major occultation. So, to me, your beliefs are just not related to Islam. It is something you just like to believe. And you have the right to believe whatever you want.

 

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No body can prove anything in an absolute sense.

All can be done, is to see, whose belief matches the Hadithes and the Quran.

I already showed Hadithes that the Qaim could not have a physical existence on earth, until the time of Rise at the End Time, since your Imams said He is in Jabulqa.

You keep saying, He was born and is on earth, hidden somewhere .

I showed you, according to Hadith, the two disappearances of the Qiam, is after His rise, Not before.
So, your belief that the Qaim disappeared before He even Rises, is in contradiction with such Hadithes.
Moreover, there are many Hadithes that specifies the duration of disappearances. None of them match with your belief that the Qaim already had a minor and major occultation. So, to me, your beliefs are just not related to Islam. It is something you just like to believe. And you have the right to believe whatever you want.

This all irrelevant to this thread. We are talking about 13:7. I can't deal with all your interpretations and side tracking of hadiths.

All the hadiths about 13:7 including the one you tried to twist, show there is a current guide right now. The one hadith that does not mention Ali (a) from sunni sources says "I am the warner and the guide is a man from bani-hashim" and they deem it authentic, but say the man from bani-hashim is Mohammad (s).

Everyone can play obtuse with this verse, but it's clear, that the guide can perform miracles, and that Mohammad (s) while such a guide, is only a warner with regards to disbelievers demanding such miracles.

The "guide" is a comment on Mohammad (s) only being a warner, which means he is such a guide that would guide them, but he can't because of their own obtuse behavior, and it's stated there is such a guide who does miracles in all times for all people the earth is never without one. While he is such a guide, and earth is never without one, all he can do is warn them, because they were obtuse to miracles and signs performed by him.

 

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قلت لابي عبدالله : « إنما أنت منذر ولكل قوم هاد » فقال : رسول الله المنذر وعلى الهادي ، يا با محمد هل من هاد اليوم؟ فقلت : بلى جعلت فداك ، ما زال منكم هاد من بعد هاد حتى دفعت إليك ، فقال : رحمك الله يا با محمد لو كانت إذا نزلت آية على رجل ثم مات ذلك الرجل ماتت الآية مات الكتاب ، لكنه حي بجري فيمن بقي كما جرى فيمن مضى


Here's the translation of the hadith:

I said to Abu Abdullah (Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq): "Indeed, you are a warner, and for every people, there is a guide." He said: "The Messenger of Allah was the warner, and Ali is the guide. O Abu Muhammad, is there a guide today?" I replied: "Yes, may I be your ransom, there has always been a guide from you after another guide until it reached you." He said: "May Allah have mercy on you, O Abu Muhammad. If it were such that when a verse was revealed to a man and then that man died, the verse would also die and the Book would die. But the Book is alive and runs in those who remain just as it ran in those who have passed."

The Book of God is "Alive", and is "the Guide".
It ran through those who remain.
Not that, a person who is the chosen Imam of God, is always alive.


Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 55, Number 651:

Narrated Abu Huraira: I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "I am the nearest of all the people to the son of Mary, and all the prophets are paternal brothers, and there has been no prophet between me and him (i.e. Jesus)."

Also in Sunan Abi Dawud 4324:

Narrated Abu Hurayrah:

The Prophet (ﷺ) said: There is no prophet between me and him, that is, Jesus (ﷺ). He will descent (to the earth).

Also, Sahih al-Bukhari 3442
Narrated Abu Huraira:

I heard Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) saying, "I am the nearest of all the people to the son of Mary, and all the prophets are paternal brothers, and there has been no prophet between me and him (i.e. Jesus).

If it means a Person is the guide between people, then who was the guide beyween Jesus and Muhammad, According to Quran and Hadith? I don't want things made up. But what does Hadith and Quran says.


The Book itself is the guide for the people, for its period it is appointed for. (To Each Age its Book 13:38)


Hadith of Thaghalayn also confirms this.

By the way, do you remember when I said for every hadith, there is a contradiction:

13 - حَدَّثَنا مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ إِبْراهيمِ بْنِ إِسْحاق الطَّالِقانِيُّرَضِىَ اللهُ عَنْهُ قالَ: حَدَّثَنا أَحْمَدِ بْنِ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ سَعِيد الكُوفِيّ الهَمْدانِيَّ قالَ: حَدَّثَنا عَلِىِّ بْنِ الحَسَنِ بْنِ عَلِىِّ بْنِ فضال، عَنْ أَبيهِ، عَنْ أَبي الحَسَن الرِّضا عَلَيْهِ السَّلامُ قالَ: إِنَّمَا سُمِّيَ أُولُو الْعَزْمِ أُوْلِي الْعَزْمِ لانَّهُمْ كَانُوا أَصْحَابَ الْعَزَائِمِ وَالشَّرَائِعِ وَذَلِكَ أَنَّ كُلَّ نَبِيٍّ كَـانَ بَعْدَ نُوحٍ‏ كَـانَ عَلَى شَرِيعَتِهِ وَمِنْهَـاجِـهِوَتَابِعاً لِكِتَابِهِ إِلَى زَمَنِ إِبْرَاهِيمَ الْخَلِيلِ وَكُلَّ نَبِيٍّ كَانَ فِي أَيَّامِ إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَبَعْدَهُ كَانَ عَلَى شَرِيعَةِ إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَمِنْهَاجِهِ وَتَابِعاً لِكِتَابِهِ إِلَى زَمَنِ مُوسَى وَكُلَّ نَبِيٍّ كَانَ فِي زَمَنِ مُوسَى وَبَعْدَهُ كَانَ عَلَى شَرِيعَةِ مُوسَى وَمِنْهَاجِهِ وَتَابِعاً لِكِتَابِهِ إِلَى أَيَّامِ عِيسَى وَكُلَّ نَبِيٍّ كَانَ فِي أَيَّامِ عِيسَى وَبَعْدَهُ كَانَ عَلَى مِنْهَاجِ عِيسَى وَشَرِيعَتِهِ وَتَابِعاً لِكِتَابِهِ إِلَى زَمَنِ نَبِيِّنَا مُحَمَّدٍ صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَآلِهِ‏فَهَؤُلاءِ الْخَمْسَةُ أُولُو الْعَزْمِ وَهُمْ أَفْضَلُ الأَنْبِيَاءِ وَالرُّسُلِ‏ عَلَيْهِ السَّلامُ وَشَرِيعَةُ مُحَمَّدٍ لا تُنْسَخُ إِلَى يَوْمِ الْقِيَامَةِ وَلا نَبِيَّ بَعْدَهُ إِلَى يَوْمِ الْقِيَامَةِ فَمَنِ ادَّعَى بَعْدَهُ نُبُوَّةً أَوْ أَتَى بَعْدَ الْقُرْآنِ بِكِتَابٍ فَدَمُهُ مُبَاحٌ لِكُلِّ مَنْ سَمِعَ ذَلِكَ مِنْهُ.

32-13 Muhammad ibn Ibrahim ibn Ishaq al-Taliqani - may God be pleased with him - narrated that Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Sa’eed al-Kufi al-Hamdani quoted on the authority of Ali ibn Al-Hassan ibn Fadhdhal, on the authority of his father that Abil Hassan Ar-Ridha’ (a.s.) said, “Why were the Best Messengers called the ‘Ulul-Azm?” The Imam (a.s.) answered, ‘They were called the ‘Ulu-Azm since they had laws and regulations. The Prophets that came after Noah (a.s.) all followed thelaws of Noah (a.s.), and followed him. The Prophets (a.s.) that came after Noah all followed his Book until Abraham (a.s.) came. The Prophets (a.s.) that came after Abraham (a.s.) all followed Abraham’s laws. The laws and the ways of Abraham were followed by all the Prophets that came after Abraham (a.s.) until Moses (a.s.). Then after Moses (a.s.), the Prophets followed his laws and ways and adhered to his Book until the time of Jesus (a.s.). All the Prophets at the time of Jesus (a.s.) and after him followed his laws and ways and adhered to his Book until the time of our Prophet Muhammad (S). Therefore, these five Prophets are the ‘Ulul-Azm and are the best of the Prophets and Messengers. The laws of Muhammad (a.s.) will not be voided until the Resurrection Day. No Prophet will ever come after him until the Resurrection Day. It is incumbent to kill whoever claims Prophethood after him (a.s.) or brings a book after the Qur’an for anyone who hears his claim.’”

ʿUyūn akhbār al-Riḍā - Volume 2, On Ar-Ridha’s Words on the Reasons for Various Things, Hadith #13

Hadith #13 - On Ar-Ridha’s Words on the Reasons for Various Things | Thaqalayn

On Ar-Ridha’s Words on the Reasons for Various Things

thaqalayn.net

I don't believe in this hadith myself and believe it contradicts Quran, rather I believe there was neither a Rasool nor a Nabi in the open, just Elyas (a) hiddenly being a leader and guide on earth during this time. But just showing, when hadiths, there is always an opposite statement to be found.

For hadiths, we should seek not isolated ones but ones that are so numerous in meaning, they can't really be doubted. Ali (a) being implied to be guide after Mohammad (s) with regards to 13:7 is such a hadith. They are numerous.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

This all irrelevant to this thread. We are talking about 13:7. I can't deal with all your interpretations and side tracking of hadiths.

All the hadiths about 13:7 including the one you tried to twist, show there is a current guide right now. The one hadith that does not mention Ali (a) from sunni sources says "I am the warner and the guide is a man from bani-hashim" and they deem it authentic, but say the man from bani-hashim is Mohammad (s).

Everyone can play obtuse with this verse, but it's clear, that the guide can perform miracles, and that Mohammad (s) while such a guide, is only a warner with regards to disbelievers demanding such miracles.

The "guide" is a comment on Mohammad (s) only being a warner, which means he is such a guide that would guide them, but he can't because of their own obtuse behavior, and it's stated there is such a guide who does miracles in all times for all people the earth is never without one. While he is such a guide, and earth is never without one, all he can do is warn them, because they were obtuse to miracles and signs performed by him.

Ok, if we are only talking about 13:7, I just noticed this verse is read in two different ways.

'And the Unbelievers say: "Why is not a sign sent down to him from his Lord?" But thou art truly a warner, and to every people a guide'



One way to understand this verse, is, the disbelievers the time of Muhammad were saying if Muhammad is truly Prophet, why there is no Sign, or Miracle sent for Him.

In response to them, Allah is a saying:

'But [o Muhammad] thou art truly a warner, and to every people a guide'

In this case, it is saying that, Muhammad's mission is to be a warner and a guide to all people. His mission is not to show miracles, so, the expectations of the disbelievers was rejected by this verse.

But, you are reading the verse as

'And those who disbelieve say, “If only a sign is sent down to him from his Lord.” Lo! You are but a warner and for every people there is a guide.'

At the first glance, it makes more sense to me to read it as the first option.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

By the way, do you remember when I said for every hadith, there is a contradiction:

13 - حَدَّثَنا مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ إِبْراهيمِ بْنِ إِسْحاق الطَّالِقانِيُّرَضِىَ اللهُ عَنْهُ قالَ: حَدَّثَنا أَحْمَدِ بْنِ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ سَعِيد الكُوفِيّ الهَمْدانِيَّ قالَ: حَدَّثَنا عَلِىِّ بْنِ الحَسَنِ بْنِ عَلِىِّ بْنِ فضال، عَنْ أَبيهِ، عَنْ أَبي الحَسَن الرِّضا عَلَيْهِ السَّلامُ قالَ: إِنَّمَا سُمِّيَ أُولُو الْعَزْمِ أُوْلِي الْعَزْمِ لانَّهُمْ كَانُوا أَصْحَابَ الْعَزَائِمِ وَالشَّرَائِعِ وَذَلِكَ أَنَّ كُلَّ نَبِيٍّ كَـانَ بَعْدَ نُوحٍ‏ كَـانَ عَلَى شَرِيعَتِهِ وَمِنْهَـاجِـهِوَتَابِعاً لِكِتَابِهِ إِلَى زَمَنِ إِبْرَاهِيمَ الْخَلِيلِ وَكُلَّ نَبِيٍّ كَانَ فِي أَيَّامِ إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَبَعْدَهُ كَانَ عَلَى شَرِيعَةِ إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَمِنْهَاجِهِ وَتَابِعاً لِكِتَابِهِ إِلَى زَمَنِ مُوسَى وَكُلَّ نَبِيٍّ كَانَ فِي زَمَنِ مُوسَى وَبَعْدَهُ كَانَ عَلَى شَرِيعَةِ مُوسَى وَمِنْهَاجِهِ وَتَابِعاً لِكِتَابِهِ إِلَى أَيَّامِ عِيسَى وَكُلَّ نَبِيٍّ كَانَ فِي أَيَّامِ عِيسَى وَبَعْدَهُ كَانَ عَلَى مِنْهَاجِ عِيسَى وَشَرِيعَتِهِ وَتَابِعاً لِكِتَابِهِ إِلَى زَمَنِ نَبِيِّنَا مُحَمَّدٍ صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَآلِهِ‏فَهَؤُلاءِ الْخَمْسَةُ أُولُو الْعَزْمِ وَهُمْ أَفْضَلُ الأَنْبِيَاءِ وَالرُّسُلِ‏ عَلَيْهِ السَّلامُ وَشَرِيعَةُ مُحَمَّدٍ لا تُنْسَخُ إِلَى يَوْمِ الْقِيَامَةِ وَلا نَبِيَّ بَعْدَهُ إِلَى يَوْمِ الْقِيَامَةِ فَمَنِ ادَّعَى بَعْدَهُ نُبُوَّةً أَوْ أَتَى بَعْدَ الْقُرْآنِ بِكِتَابٍ فَدَمُهُ مُبَاحٌ لِكُلِّ مَنْ سَمِعَ ذَلِكَ مِنْهُ.

32-13 Muhammad ibn Ibrahim ibn Ishaq al-Taliqani - may God be pleased with him - narrated that Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Sa’eed al-Kufi al-Hamdani quoted on the authority of Ali ibn Al-Hassan ibn Fadhdhal, on the authority of his father that Abil Hassan Ar-Ridha’ (a.s.) said, “Why were the Best Messengers called the ‘Ulul-Azm?” The Imam (a.s.) answered, ‘They were called the ‘Ulu-Azm since they had laws and regulations. The Prophets that came after Noah (a.s.) all followed thelaws of Noah (a.s.), and followed him. The Prophets (a.s.) that came after Noah all followed his Book until Abraham (a.s.) came. The Prophets (a.s.) that came after Abraham (a.s.) all followed Abraham’s laws. The laws and the ways of Abraham were followed by all the Prophets that came after Abraham (a.s.) until Moses (a.s.). Then after Moses (a.s.), the Prophets followed his laws and ways and adhered to his Book until the time of Jesus (a.s.). All the Prophets at the time of Jesus (a.s.) and after him followed his laws and ways and adhered to his Book until the time of our Prophet Muhammad (S). Therefore, these five Prophets are the ‘Ulul-Azm and are the best of the Prophets and Messengers. The laws of Muhammad (a.s.) will not be voided until the Resurrection Day. No Prophet will ever come after him until the Resurrection Day. It is incumbent to kill whoever claims Prophethood after him (a.s.) or brings a book after the Qur’an for anyone who hears his claim.’”

ʿUyūn akhbār al-Riḍā - Volume 2, On Ar-Ridha’s Words on the Reasons for Various Things, Hadith #13

Hadith #13 - On Ar-Ridha’s Words on the Reasons for Various Things | Thaqalayn

On Ar-Ridha’s Words on the Reasons for Various Things

thaqalayn.net

I don't believe in this hadith myself and believe it contradicts Quran, rather I believe there was neither a Rasool nor a Nabi in the open, just Elyas (a) hiddenly being a leader and guide on earth during this time. But just showing, when hadiths, there is always an opposite statement to be found.

For hadiths, we should seek not isolated ones but ones that are so numerous in meaning, they can't really be doubted. Ali (a) being implied to be guide after Mohammad (s) with regards to 13:7 is such a hadith. They are numerous.

The way I understand this Hadith and the other Hadithes that says, No Prophet between Jesus and Muhammad, is
There are Prophets who are only "Nabi", and there are Prophets who are "Rasool Nabi".

When Muhammad was saying there is no Prophet between Jesus and Him, He must be talking about the "Rasool Nabi".
When Imam Riza is saying the Prophets during Jesus and after Him, He is talking about the Apostles and other minor Prophets, who did not bring a new Law, but just followed Jesus.

Remember, it is said, God had sent 120000 Prophets (Nabis). But the Quran does not mention all of them. Just some of them are mentioned.
This is why, I also believe that Rumi was a Nabi. So was Hafiz. But some of the Prophets are exalted over other Prophets. So, this is why, some Prophets are barely known, or if known, they did not claim boldly that they are Prophets.

 

[Link]

Ok, if we are only talking about 13:7, I just noticed this verse is read in two different ways.

'And the Unbelievers say: "Why is not a sign sent down to him from his Lord?" But thou art truly a warner, and to every people a guide'



One way to understand this verse, is, the disbelievers the time of Muhammad were saying if Muhammad is truly Prophet, why there is no Sign, or Miracle sent for Him.

In response to them, Allah is a saying:

'But [o Muhammad] thou art truly a warner, and to every people a guide'

In this case, it is saying that, Muhammad's mission is to be a warner and a guide to all people. His mission is not to show miracles, so, the expectations of the disbelievers was rejected by this verse.

But, you are reading the verse as

'And those who disbelieve say, “If only a sign is sent down to him from his Lord.” Lo! You are but a warner and for every people there is a guide.'

At the first glance, it makes more sense to me to read it as the first option.

Okay, now at least you are discussing the verse. The hadiths are being denied by you about this, but that's okay at least you are discussing the verse.

The problem with "only" extending to "and for every a guide" is that it contradicts the fact how he is only a warner stated through out the Quran. The guidance of God is always said not to be guarantee for disbelievers. This is why it makes sense by the context, it's saying, for every people is a guide. Because the Inama is always saying he can't guide them, he can only warn through out the Quran, this is a big theme.

The "only" doesn't make sense to include guide because that it's no longer about in context of only warning disbelievers through such signs. In this case, let's assume, the only ignores the context of sign asked for. Let's ignore even the plenty of mentions that Mohammad (s) can't guide them only warn them through out Quran. In this case, it would deny he is a revealer of scripture. It would deny his Nubuwa. It would also deny he is a witness on earth to their deeds. Therefore the Inama should not be seen in absolute terms with his role to humanity. Rather the Inama is saying he is saying he is only a warner as in he can't guide them or guarantee their guidance. The ball is in their court.

The "and for every people is a guide" is saying the warner is such a guide, but he can't guide them. This meaning is the clear meaning and the other meaning is impossible for how it's used through out Quran and also contradicts it even if we ignore context, ignore hadiths about it, ignore the usage of "You are only a warner" through out Quran, it still contradicts because it would mean he is not a Nabi because you can be a warner and guide without being a Nabi as Imams were.