Cary Cook
Member
I agree, but I think you should discuss that with atheists.I'm interesting in discussing this topic. I think atheism is a valid position and that they have a lot to contribute to such topics.
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
I agree, but I think you should discuss that with atheists.I'm interesting in discussing this topic. I think atheism is a valid position and that they have a lot to contribute to such topics.
So you're implying even intermediation of Jesus is not needed?
IMO, not only can a sub-deity create a world of pain and suffering, but the SB can and may do that if doing it achieves something he considers more important.A good definition, better than any I can come up with.
The question is whether any of these created sub-deities can turn to the dark side and create a world of pain and suffering?
Your example is subjective. The predator likes it. No amount of emotional revulsion can turn a subjective truth to an objective truth.Seems to me that an animal writhing in pain while being eaten alive by a predator is not good; no way to subjectivefy this example. And there are examples far more horrible when considering humans.
Two questions I can't answer:
- The origin of pain, suffering, evil. It can't be from God because God is all good.
In figuring out what's true or probably true, it is first beneficial to lay out all the logical possibilities, including the disgusting and horrifying ones. Otherwise you are letting your emotions cloud your rational judgment. Emotion is always detrimental to sound probability judgment (any exceptions to this are coincidental).This seems to suggest that in creating other sub-deities, God somehow creates an independent realm for each to operate within, a realm independent of his will and his power. They can then do whatever dastardly deeds within that realm they choose.
This, though, makes God rather aloof and perhaps even uncaring.
This is the creation/evolution debate. I favor theistic evolution, but I'm not a scientist, so my opinion is worth little.Yes, I agree. Once the structures are in place. But how do the structures get constructed in the first place? That is the question.
For example, development of complex many stepped elements like eyes or similar. Something that has many elements and each element developed with no apparent advantage for organism but final result is spectacular.Thanks for your reply.
I wonder what the nature of this pre-programming might be? I can't think of one.
For example, development of complex many stepped elements like eyes.
Thank you for your comment.The universe unfolds into what we have today and beyond just like a seed grows into a giant tree. It has all been figured out ahead of time.
Yes, in certain systems a small change produces a huge unexpected effect. And certainly the random mutations and gene copy errors could behave like this. But my point is, that these quantum mechanics effects are strictly random, with no intelligence of what will proceed as a consequence. How can such random events produce such remarkable design without interaction and gentle "nudges" at just the right key moments by an intelligent designer?Quantum randomness: Did you know there is order to chaos? When one reaches an advance stage, the complex starts to become so simple. Understanding changes the picture.
I doubt there is such a thing as an objective standard for such issues as these. Certainly people claim there are objective standards, but no one can agree on the source or the content.You must have an objective standard, and common sense is not one.
Thank for your reply.Why do you expect the world to be perfect? I/we simply did the best I/we could.
Yes, the same for when I eat a burger twice a month.Why do you fret about pain when you never worry about all the insects you have trodden on inadvertantly in the course of your life? Do you seriously think those actions have made you evil?
God created all things. Can pain, suffering and evil be good things? Pain is just an indicator something is wrong. Could we really be without indicators?? Suffering and evil point the direction by which one needs to learn. Adversity breeds invention. Without adversity would one really make the effort. Our choices return our actions to teach us what our actions really mean. Learn and advance enough and evil will no longer be a viable choice. Since we are in a multilevel classroom, one will see those learning lessons we have already learned.
God and evolution: I've afraid you are not thinking advanced enough. The universe unfolds into what we have today and beyond just like a seed grows into a giant tree. It has all been figured out ahead of time.
Quantum randomness: Did you know there is order to chaos? When one reaches an advance stage, the complex starts to become so simple. Understanding changes the picture.
sure...Something like the Christian view is the one that seems most coherent to me.
Do you mind sharing your views on this topic?
Thank you for your insights.sure...
We naturally think in terms of billions of years but science now knows that at the speed of light, time slows down or becomes irrelevant. (From what I understand).
Mankind, as we know it, is only thousands of years. (Not that there weren't other beings before known man). So suffering is relative to one's perspective. Today, it seems like time is flying but there are still only 365 days in a year. Perhaps for someone else, time is crawling. For God, a thousand year is but a day so in His perspective, suffering has been short.
In the Christian perspective, God knew that there would be suffering because of choice, no different than when I chose to have children even though I know that they will experience suffering. That is why it was written that Jesus was slain before the foundations of the world. He had already built in a solution.
My marriage has had difficult times, but I wouldn't change my union just because there was some suffering. The blessing and joy of having love far outweighs the difficult times. Even moreso when we compare 120 years with an eternity.
Ultimately, a new earth will be created where there is no more suffering, crying or dying. This earth, which was cursed because of man's sin, will be reformated and there will be no more suffering.
Obviously this short synopsis hardly can explain all that will be -- expecially since I don't know everything. But that is the short of the long of it.
Likely true. But if no objective standard is assumed, morality becomes a matter of individual preference. All the villains of history are no longer objectively evil; they are just unpopular.I doubt there is such a thing as an objective standard for such issues as these. Certainly people claim there are objective standards, but no one can agree on the source or the content.
sure...
We naturally think in terms of billions of years but science now knows that at the speed of light, time slows down or becomes irrelevant. (From what I understand).
I assume God created everything, and that he should not be considered good if he created anything causing pain, suffering, or evil. Yet somehow there is pain, suffering, and evil. This is what I am pondering.
One solution is that a created free will creature (Lucifer) who rebelled against God. But this would mean he created the universe with its limited resources, the need for creatures to eat each other, and etc. This is more than Christians say about Lucifer. They think it is more satisfying to blame it all on Adam's sin, but this implies rapid evolution so that animals will become carnivores (for example), and a radical change to the natural laws to make the universe like it is today.
I'm stumped.
Thanks for sharing your insights. I find them helpful and edifying.
I think you are presenting what might be called a variety of philosophical idealism. What I wonder is how something as fluid and gauzy as imagination can result in molecules operating under the electrostatic force and quantum mechanics to create such intricately designed structures.
I agree that our soul is merely a manifestation of God's active being within his mind, or some such thing. In my view, both God and the soul exist in what I call the spiritual realm, that is to say, neither are part of the physical realm nor subject to the natural laws of nature but operate outside of it while at the same time integrated and correlated with it.