3 dead, 6 injured in Michigan high school shooting; 15-year-old suspect in custody, authorities say

[Revoltingest]

When these mass shootings happen we tend to hear the typical conservative responses: more laws won't stop killing, laws will only hurt law abiding people, we need fewer laws and rely more on personal responsibility, more regulation impedes liberty, etc.

What regulations will aim to do is not infringe on rights of law-abiding people, but will mean there are more steps in getting a gun. These steps would help weed out those who are not trustworthy enough to have access to guns, especially high capacity, rapid firing guns.

The right's weird and confusing stand on being "pro-life" seems to drive them to more extreme position as time goes on.

And I tire of the left ignoring mental health issues,
secure storage requirements, & instead focusing on
the unproductive magazine size limitations.

Just not seeing any thoughtful conversation among
the loudest elements on each side.

 

[F1fan]

And I tire of the left ignoring mental health issues,
secure storage requirements, & instead focusing on
the unproductive magazine size limitations.

Just not seeing any thoughtful conversation among
the loudest elements on each side.

Not accurate. I remember Obama specifically calling for gun locks. It's not as if democrats are pushing just magazine limits. They have pushed for all sorts of regulations to help limit the impact mass shooters have on the public. It's only the pushback from Republicans that limits the work of democrats. I remember the pushback for gunlocks as being that those homeowners using guns for self defense would be slowed down by a lock. Apparently this appeal has worked. Only MA has mandatory locks for guns with children in the home.

And as far as mental health issues? Which political party has been advocating hard for healthcare reform, including mental health care? Which party has been standing in the way?


There are no current federal standards for locking devices.19 On January 16, 2013, President Obama signed a series of executive orders to address gun violence and school safety in the wake of the Newtown, Connecticut school massacre in December 2012. One of these orders calls for the Consumer Product Safety Commission to review the effectiveness of gun locks and gun safes, including existing voluntary industry standards, and take any steps that may be warranted to improve the standards. As stated by the President: “We also need to make sure that gun locks and gun safes work as intended. Several gun locks have been subject to recall due to their failure to function properly; that is not acceptable.”20

Safe Storage | Giffords

 

[Revoltingest]

Not accurate. I remember Obama specifically calling for gun locks.

I wouldn't use what he'd call "gun locks".
They don't offer theft protection, & are more easily defeated
than a safe (which can still offer rapid access). The proposal
attributed to him bespeaks lack of a comprehensive plan to
address the problem.

It's not as if democrats are pushing just magazine limits. They have pushed for all sorts of regulations to help limit the impact mass shooters have on the public. It's only the pushback from Republicans that limits the work of democrats. I remember the pushback for gunlocks as being that those homeowners using guns for self defense would be slowed down by a lock. Apparently this appeal has worked. Only MA has mandatory locks for guns with children in the home.

And as far as mental health issues? Which political party has been advocating hard for healthcare reform, including mental health care? Which party has been standing in the way?


There are no current federal standards for locking devices.19 On January 16, 2013, President Obama signed a series of executive orders to address gun violence and school safety in the wake of the Newtown, Connecticut school massacre in December 2012. One of these orders calls for the Consumer Product Safety Commission to review the effectiveness of gun locks and gun safes, including existing voluntary industry standards, and take any steps that may be warranted to improve the standards. As stated by the President: “We also need to make sure that gun locks and gun safes work as intended. Several gun locks have been subject to recall due to their failure to function properly; that is not acceptable.”20

Safe Storage | Giffords

I stand by my observation that the general conversation,
especially involving the louder advocates, isn't addressing
the problem productively.
If anything, the left decries my harping on mental health
services. It seems that all they see is that guns are scary.

 

[F1fan]

I wouldn't use what he'd call "gun locks".
They don't offer theft protection, & are more easily defeated
than a safe (which can still offer rapid access). The proposal
attributed to him bespeaks lack of a comprehensive plan to
address the problem.

The gun locks I'm referring to are used to prevent use by children. Some can be tough enough to prevent use by anyone without the key. As we know guns kept in homes are more likely to kill by accident, suicide, or some dispute than protection. Several years ago the 16 year old son of friends of mine used the house handgun to kill himself. Simple safety measures could have prevented the easy access and use.

Injuries and deaths due to firearms in the home - PubMed

I stand by my observation that the general conversation,
especially involving the louder advocates, isn't addressing
the problem productively.
If anything, the left decries my harping on mental health
services. It seems that all they see is that guns are scary.

That might be true in liberal media, perhaps. The advocates for gun safety have made little progress over the years, mostly due to the NRA. I'm always suspcious of the motive of those who don't acknowledge the USA has a serious gun violence problem. I don't understand what it is THEY fear about just admitting the USA has a problem. I'm further suspicious of those who won't even try to reduce the access to guns. To my mind the fight isn't even about getting any sort of regulation, but just getting conservatives to admit the USA has a gun violence problems.

 

[Revoltingest]

The gun locks I'm referring to are used to prevent use by children. Some can be tough enough to prevent use by anyone without the key. As we know guns kept in homes are more likely to kill by accident, suicide, or some dispute than protection. Several years ago the 16 year old son of friends of mine used the house handgun to kill himself. Simple safety measures could have prevented the easy access and use.
Injuries and deaths due to firearms in the home - PubMed

I still prefer more secure storage than mere trigger locks.

That might be true in liberal media, perhaps. The advocates for gun safety have made little progress over the years, mostly due to the NRA. I'm always suspcious of the motive of those who don't acknowledge the USA has a serious gun violence problem. I don't understand what it is THEY fear about just admitting the USA has a problem. I'm further suspicious of those who won't even try to reduce the access to guns. To my mind the fight isn't even about getting any sort of regulation, but just getting conservatives to admit the USA has a gun violence problems.

Admitting a gun violence problem is about as useful
as admitting that we breathe air. Not really an issue.
(The left loves to complain about it more than fixing it.)
So we argue about how to address it.

 

[Suave]

I wouldn't use what he'd call "gun locks".
They don't offer theft protection, & are more easily defeated
than a safe (which can still offer rapid access). The proposal
attributed to him bespeaks lack of a comprehensive plan to
address the problem.

I stand by my observation that the general conversation,
especially involving the louder advocates, isn't addressing
the problem productively.
If anything, the left decries my harping on mental health
services. It seems that all they see is that guns are scary.

How about a smart gun which could only be unlocked and triggered by its registered owner?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Once again, these are criminals. Why would you expect a criminal to follow the law? It's like how drug laws never stopped anyone from getting the illegal drugs of their choice.

The legal gun market feeds the illegal gun market. Every gun used by a criminal started out as a legal gun.

You don't get people setting up forges and machine shops in their garages the way people do with meth labs.

The black market in firearms only has what the legal market provides it. Cut off the black market's supply - either by making it harder for a gun to leave the legal market or by taking it off the legal market, too - and you drive up the cost of the gun on the black market, pricing many criminals out of owning it.

 

[Revoltingest]

How about a smart gun which could only be unlocked and triggered by its registered owner?

It could be useful if found reliable.
But it doesn't replace secure storage because
it could be more easily stolen & defeated.

 

[Suave]

The legal gun market feeds the illegal gun market. Every gun used by a criminal started out as a legal gun.

You don't get people setting up forges and machine shops in their garages the way people do with meth labs.

The black market in firearms only has what the legal market provides it. Cut off the black market's supply - either by making it harder for a gun to leave the legal market or by taking it off the legal market, too - and you drive up the cost of the gun on the black market, pricing many criminals out of owning it.

Could not some tech savvy criminal create an illegal gun by 3d printing?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Could not some tech savvy criminal create an illegal gun by 3d printing?

Sure... and some day that may happen in non-negligible numbers. In the real world today, though, 3D-printed guns aren't a factor in crime involving firearms.

 

[Suave]

Sure... and some day that may happen in non-negligible numbers. In the real world today, though, 3D-printed guns aren't a factor in crime involving firearms.

Six months ago in Australia, police there seized two 3-d printed submachine guns. I guess some few illegal 3-d printed guns already exist.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Six months ago in Australia, police there seized two 3-d printed submachine guns. I guess some few illegal 3-d printed guns already exist.

That speaks to my point. How many total guns do Australian police seize in a year? 2 out of how many?

 

[Suave]

That speaks to my point. How many total guns do Australian police seize in a year? 2 out of how many?

There were more than just the two 3d printed submachines, there were also five 3-d printed pistols seized in Australia. Multiple 3D-printed Firearms Seized in Sydney, Australia - Armament Research Services (ARES)

"Recently, a gun control researcher from Sydney University s School of Public Health, Philip Alpers, estimated that there are about 20 000 illegal handguns in Australia"

Firearms in Australia: a guide to electronic resources – Parliament of Australia

So, I figure there's at least 7 illegal 3-d printed guns out of an estimated 20,000 illegal guns in Australia, that means already at least one out of Australia's 3,000 illegal guns are 3-d printed.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

There were more than just the two 3d printed submachines, there were also five 3-d printed pistols seized in Australia. Multiple 3D-printed Firearms Seized in Sydney, Australia - Armament Research Services (ARES)

"Recently, a gun control researcher from Sydney University s School of Public Health, Philip Alpers, estimated that there are about 20 000 illegal handguns in Australia"

Firearms in Australia: a guide to electronic resources – Parliament of Australia

So, I figure there's at least 7 illegal 3-d printed guns out of an estimated 20,000 illegal guns in Australia, that means already at least one out of Australia's 3,000 illegal guns are 3-d printed.

You're mixing up your stats. You took "20,000 illegal handguns" to mean 20,000 illegal guns total.

And this is on top of the other goalpost-moving you already did: "gun used in crime" <> "illegal firearm." Many guns used in crime were acquired and possessed legally.

 

[Wildswanderer]

But no need to make murder so damn easy, is it? It's almost as if you like when it happens. I don't understand why conservatives don't want to bother helping to solve this problem. It's like you just don't care that it happens, as long as it's not you.

Not very Christian, is it?

You are projecting. I'm all for solving the problem of why someone goes off the rails and kills randomly. It defies logic. I think the answer is there's real evil in this world and we try to fix it with pills and talk. How to stop it? Man has wrestled with that question for thosands of years.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Interesting how you didn't answer the questions. I assume that the answers were "yes" to all but you were to coward to really say it.
I guess you are also against drivers licenses and the prohibition of drunk driving? They are restrictions on law abiding people.

We already have the equivalent of a drivers license to own a gun. I can't buy one if I'm a felon or fail a basic background check.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You are projecting. I'm all for solving the problem of why someone goes off the rails and kills randomly. It defies logic. I think the answer is there's real evil in this world and we try to fix it with pills and talk. How to stop it? Man has wrestled with that question for thosands of years.

Conventional wisdom says that for a crime to occur, 3 things need to be present:

- motive (e.g. they have to want to carry out a mass killing)
- means (e.g. they have to have access to deadly weapons and know how to use them)
- opportunity (e.g. they have to be in a place with their targets and their weapon at the same time)

Take away any of them and the crime does not occur.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Conventional wisdom says that for a crime to occur, 3 things need to be present:

- motive (e.g. they have to want to carry out a mass killing)
- means (e.g. they have to have access to deadly weapons and know how to use them)
- opportunity (e.g. they have to be in a place with their targets and their weapon at the same time)

Take away any of them and the crime does not occur.

Who does not have access to deadly weapons?
I can kill you with my hands. Everyone possess deadly weapons.

I was on the deer stand yesterday with my 30.06, which I use to provide food for us every year. I could easily use that so called deadly weapon to shoot say 10 people before being stopped. It's not the gun. No one is pulling mass shootings with my bolt action five shot rifle, but we could. And there's thosands of individuals like me just in my state, millions in this nation, but those people aren't the ones to worry about. What happens if we restrict magizines for example? Nothing. People just hide them. So obviously the real objective is to take away those millions of hunting rifles and revolvers, not just the sexy AR-15 s and Glocks. Never happen. Not without a gestapo type violent raid on millions of Americans. Is that what you want?

 

[Suave]

You're mixing up your stats. You took "20,000 illegal handguns" to mean 20,000 illegal guns total.

And this is on top of the other goalpost-moving you already did: "gun used in crime" <> "illegal firearm." Many guns used in crime were acquired and possessed legally.

The two 3-d submachine guns were taken from suspected drug traffickers who could have very well been armed with their 3-d submachine guns while committing crime.

Also a 3-d printed rifle was seized from somebody accused of terror offences.
"An Adelaide man charged with a number of terror-related offences has also had weapons seized, one which is alleged to have been made using a 3D printer."
'3D-printed rifle' seized from Adelaide man accused of terror offences

In Australia, there were 1,316 reported incidents of crime involving firearms from 1989 to 2006, which amounts to an average of 77.4 firearm related crimes per year.
Criminal use of handguns in Australia

3-D printed guns have existed over the last 12 years. If Australia has had an average of 77.4 gun related crimes each year over the last 12 years, that'd amount to almost 1,000 gun related crimes. There have been the aforementioned three 3-D printed guns that may have been criminally used. Hence, an estimated minimum of three out of the most recent one thousand gun related crimes in Australia very well might have been committed by 3-d printed guns. I figure at least 0.3 percent of gun related crime in Australia very likely involves a 3-d printed gun.

 

[F1fan]

I still prefer more secure storage than mere trigger locks.

And that is your personal preference.

The issue is no lock at all versus any kind of lock (which will hinder users who don't have permission).

Admitting a gun violence problem is about as useful
as admitting that we breathe air. Not really an issue.
(The left loves to complain about it more than fixing it.)
So we argue about how to address it.

Sorry but it would be useful. As it is Republicans in Congress are in a codependent relationship with conservative voters. Both feed each other to minimize serious risks to safety and order and instead pump up rhetoric about liberty and rights. It's as if conservatives think having guns is more important than the right to life.