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61% of Americans want a new political party.

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
https://joinsam.org/blog/61-americans-want-see-new-political-party-where-it

Sometimes I wondered why we don't have a third or even a fourth political party.

Is it all cleverly rigged by Democrats and Republicans so you can't have additional parties?

Even the new parties we've had in a past (like the tea party) actually are offshoots of either Republicans or Democrats as a subordinate and not an independent free of all influence from the main parties.

Why do you suppose people collectively don't go for third parties? Too much of a risk cuz we're comfortable with the only two main ones?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
https://joinsam.org/blog/61-americans-want-see-new-political-party-where-it

Sometimes I wondered why we don't have a third or even a fourth political party.

Is it all cleverly rigged by Democrats and Republicans so you can't have additional parties?

Even the new parties we've had in a past (like the tea party) actually are offshoots of either Republicans or Democrats as a subordinate and not an independent free of all influence from the main parties.

Why do you suppose people collectively don't go for third parties? Too much of a risk cuz we're comfortable with the only two main ones?
The current system seems to be conducive to only two parties. Even when major parties were replaced the change was rather quick. The parliamentary systems that other countries have seems to support multiple parties.
 

SoyLeche

meh...
https://joinsam.org/blog/61-americans-want-see-new-political-party-where-it

Sometimes I wondered why we don't have a third or even a fourth political party.

Is it all cleverly rigged by Democrats and Republicans so you can't have additional parties?

Even the new parties we've had in a past (like the tea party) actually are offshoots of either Republicans or Democrats as a subordinate and not an independent free of all influence from the main parties.

Why do you suppose people collectively don't go for third parties? Too much of a risk cuz we're comfortable with the only two main ones?
It's a game theory thing. The equalibrium is with 2 parties (note, they don't have to be the Dems and Repubs, but that's where we are at the moment).

A 3rd can come in and replace one of the others, but the one that isn't going to be replaced will be the big winner for a while when that happens.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
The system and laws are set up to discourage new parties. The Electoral College as it works in practice is one example.

Small parties can and do win occasional local elections but that's it.

And people are invested in a party the way they used to be invested in a religion. It takes something very spectacular to get people to renounce something that is part of who they think of themselves as being.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The US does have official, alternative parties; third, forth...fiftieth parties. I'm a registered Green, for example.
List of political parties in the United States - Wikipedia

The problem is, we have neither a parliamentary system nor ranked choice voting. It's winner-take-all, and special interests aren't going to dilute their influence by funding minor candidates, even when one of them might be promoting policies perfectly in line with their interests.

Money talks -- and buys elections.
Public election funding here is pretty spotty. Most funding comes from special -- usually corporate -- interests, and private donations from those who can afford them. Many politicians spend extraordinary amounts of time soliciting donations, rather than actually legislating.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
The system works as intended. It's a free marketplace of ideas, just like a free market in economics. A small group of oligarchs pretend to be competing while they put up high barriers for new competitors to enter.
 

SoyLeche

meh...
The system and laws are set up to discourage new parties. The Electoral College as it works in practice is one example.

Small parties can and do win occasional local elections but that's it.

And people are invested in a party the way they used to be invested in a religion. It takes something very spectacular to get people to renounce something that is part of who they think of themselves as being.
It’s the “First past the post” and the “winner take all” form of our election processes that does it.

I think I saw somewhere that one of the states is considering an alternate voting system (ranked choice, I think). That would be a big step forward if it were to catch on.
 

SoyLeche

meh...
It’s the “First past the post” and the “winner take all” form of our election processes that does it.

I think I saw somewhere that one of the states is considering an alternate voting system (ranked choice, I think). That would be a big step forward if it were to catch on.
Looks like it is Maine and Instant Runoff. They are set to pull the trigger for the presidential election of 2020.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
It's a game theory thing. The equalibrium is with 2 parties (note, they don't have to be the Dems and Repubs, but that's where we are at the moment).

A 3rd can come in and replace one of the others, but the one that isn't going to be replaced will be the big winner for a while when that happens.
The lesson from Canada and other countries with first-past-the-post elections is that third parties are viable as long as their support is regionally concentrated.

In the 2016 election, 1.9% of the votes for House seats went to independents and third parties. In a fair system, that should have been enough for 8 or 9 seats instead of the zero they actually got. The problem is that the major third parties' support is spread out geographically, so it doesn't command a plurality in any specific district.

... but even though the system in place stifles some of the support for third parties, there's still a significant amount of it out there.
 

SoyLeche

meh...
The lesson from Canada and other countries with first-past-the-post elections is that third parties are viable as long as their support is regionally concentrated.

In the 2016 election, 1.9% of the votes for House seats went to independents and third parties. In a fair system, that should have been enough for 8 or 9 seats instead of the zero they actually got. The problem is that the major third parties' support is spread out geographically, so it doesn't command a plurality in any specific district.

... but even though the system in place stifles some of the support for third parties, there's still a significant amount of it out there.
I personally vote third party every chance I get (although I won’t this time around - the Republican Party of today needs to go away and voting for the Ds is the best way I can help that at the moment).

I’d love to see a third party get around 5% of the vote. Then maybe they’d at least get onto the debate stage.
 

Salvador

RF's Swedenborgian
https://joinsam.org/blog/61-americans-want-see-new-political-party-where-it

Sometimes I wondered why we don't have a third or even a fourth political party.

Is it all cleverly rigged by Democrats and Republicans so you can't have additional parties?

Even the new parties we've had in a past (like the tea party) actually are offshoots of either Republicans or Democrats as a subordinate and not an independent free of all influence from the main parties.

Why do you suppose people collectively don't go for third parties? Too much of a risk cuz we're comfortable with the only two main ones?

After Trump's second term, I'm seriously considering forming a third political party called the Universal Catastrophic Health Insurance and Universal Subsistence Allowance Party ( U.C.H.I.A.U.S.A.), which would like universal catastrophic health insurance ( U..C.H.I.) affordably done with insured cost sharing, ( Universal Medicare w/combined $5,000 Part A and B deductible and 20 percent Part A and B insured co-insurance, 50 percent prescription drug co-insurance ) costing taxpayers ca. $2.2 trillion in the year 2026.

The estimated costs of additional federal spending approved by the U.C.H.I.A.U.S.A party in 2026 would be ca. $1.4 trillion for Social Security, ( no change from status-quo on S.S. retirement benefits ), approximately one trillion dollars towards the military and veteran services or veteran benefits, $600 billion on debt interest payments, an estimated $75 billion spending on the U.S. Department of Agriculture, ( ca. $13 billion ) for the Department of Commerce, ( ca. $13 billion ) for the Center for Disease Control and Prevention, ( ca. $37 billion) for the Department of Energy, ( ca. $10 billion ) for the Environmental Protection Agency, ( $9 billion ). for the Food and Drug Administration, ( ca. $35 billion ) for the Department of Housing and Urban Development, ( ca. $26 billion) for the Department of Interior annual spending, ( ca. $62 billion) for the Department of Homeland Security, (ca. $35 billion) for the Department of Justice, ( ca. $13 billion ) for the Department of Labor, ( ca. $26 billion ) for N.A.S.A., ( ca. $50 billion ) for the State Department, ( ca. $121 billion) for the Department of Transportation, ( ca. $24 billion ) for the Department of Treasury,, the above proposed federal spending would result in total federal annual spending to be ca. $5.75 trillion..

A ten percent Value Added Tax would result in ca. $1.25 trillion of federal taxation on America's total annual personal consumption.

The U.C.H.I.A.U.S.A. party would approve having U.C.H.I funded in large part with a 10 percent V.A.T., which would generate approximately 1.25 trillion in the year 2026. U.C.H.I. could also be funded in part with an increase in the corporate income tax rate from 21 percent to 29 percent. In 2026, this would result in corporations paying U.S. corporate income taxes of ca. $550 billion; the remainder of funding for U.C. H.I. would come from Medicare payroll taxes of ca. $400 billion.

The U.C.H.I.A.U.S.A. party would have Social security fully funded by a doubling of the cap on social security taxes, so that all workers and employers would contribute 6.2 percent of social security taxes on every dollar of their earnings up to $350,000 of each individual wage earner's income .In 2026, this would mean Americans would pay ca. $1.4 trillion in social security payroll taxes.

The U.C.H.I.A.U.S.A. party would approve of U.S. military spending along with veteran services being funded with a simplified income tax system, just a few income tax brackets beginning in year 2026, zero percent on initial $12,800 of personal individual annual income, 12 percent on $12,801 to $62,800 of personal individual annual income, 32 percent on individual personal annual earnings in excess of $62,800. Capital gains taxed at same rate as ordinary income. No tax credits, save for a refundable $4,000 child tax credit as well as a $5,000 subsistence living allowance tax credit for each American adult citizen. In 2026, this would result in total personal federal income taxes amounting to an estimated one trillion dollars. .

National defense spending ( ca. $790 billion /year spending on U.S. Department of Defense , Veterans services and benefits ( ca. $210 billion) would be well funded with personal federal income taxes generating ca. one trillion of revenue in year 2026 as imposed by the U.C.H.I.A.U.S.A. Party tax plan.

The U.C.H.I.A.U.S.A. party would approve of implementing excise taxes on fuel, tobacco, cannabis, alcohol, air travel, Amtrak, national park and museum admission fees collectively adding up to ca. $250 billion in 2026. A. An U.C.H.I.U.S.A. party approved financial transaction taxes ( remittance taxes and stock/bond trade taxes) would generate ca. $200. Tariffs would generate ca. $120 billion in revenue. Federal estate taxes would generate ca. $30 billion in revenue. Excise taxes, federal estate taxes, financial transaction taxes and tariffs could be used to fund spending on an estimated $75 billion spending on the U.S. Department of Agriculture, ( ca. $13 billion ) for the Department of Commerce, ( ca. $13 billion ) for the Center for Disease Control and Prevention, ( ca. $37 billion) for the Department of Energy, ( ca. $10 billion ) for the Environmental Protection Agency, ( $8 billion ). for the Food and Drug Administration, ( ca. $35 billion ) for the Department of Housing and Urban Development, ( ca. $26 billion) for the Department of Interior annual spending, ( ca. $61 billion) for the Department of Homeland Security, (ca. $35 billion) for the Department of Justice, ( ca. $13 billion ) for the Department of Labor, ( ca. $26 billion ) for N.A.S.A., ( ca. $50 billion ) for the State Department, ( ca. $121 billion) for the Department of Transportation, ( ca. $24 billion ) for the Department of Treasury,, the above proposed federal spending would result in total federal annual spending to be ca. $5.75 trillion..

All the above proposed taxes for 2026, would add up to ca. $5.2 trillion. The above proposed federal spending of ca. $5.75 trillion and $5.2 trillion of federal taxes would result in an annual federal deficit of ca. $550 billion in 2026.

U.C.H.I.A.U.S.A.ism would implement universal catastrophic health insurance, provide a guaranteed minimum basic income, replace taxes on productivity with consumption taxes, simplify the U.S. tax code, save social security, reduce federal spending to less than 20 percent of G.D.P., and cut deficit spending to less than 2 percent of G.D.P. ...:)
 
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sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Ranked choice, instant runoff, or top two in primary get to the general election (California) systems all to me are better than what we have now. They all break up the party duopoly in different ways.

I don't have a strong preference for one of the three and thus am open to changing my mind (right now I prefer the California system).
 

Ayjaydee

Active Member
https://joinsam.org/blog/61-americans-want-see-new-political-party-where-it

Sometimes I wondered why we don't have a third or even a fourth political party.

Is it all cleverly rigged by Democrats and Republicans so you can't have additional parties?

Even the new parties we've had in a past (like the tea party) actually are offshoots of either Republicans or Democrats as a subordinate and not an independent free of all influence from the main parties.

Why do you suppose people collectively don't go for third parties? Too much of a risk cuz we're comfortable with the only two main ones?
Because you actually only have o
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I personally vote third party every chance I get (although I won’t this time around - the Republican Party of today needs to go away and voting for the Ds is the best way I can help that at the moment).

I’d love to see a third party get around 5% of the vote. Then maybe they’d at least get onto the debate stage.
The presidential debate?

It seems to me that a third party that's serious about actually winning elections wouldn't put a lot of resources into the presidential race. Third-party presidential candidates always seemed to me to be using the campaign to draw attention to issues and not so much actually trying to get on a (potentially multi-election) path to victory.

... which is fine, but should be recognized for what it is.

I think that a third party that wanted to win actual elections and get real power to shape the government would focus their energy on just a handful of House districts and concentrate on getting their party elected there.

In the current situation, where the House is usually close to evenly split between Republicans and Democrats, it wouldn't take that many seats being held by a third party to create a situation where that third party holds the balance of power and can decide whether bills pass or get defeated.
 

Ayjaydee

Active Member
https://joinsam.org/blog/61-americans-want-see-new-political-party-where-it

Sometimes I wondered why we don't have a third or even a fourth political party.

Is it all cleverly rigged by Democrats and Republicans so you can't have additional parties?

Even the new parties we've had in a past (like the tea party) actually are offshoots of either Republicans or Democrats as a subordinate and not an independent free of all influence from the main parties.

Why do you suppose people collectively don't go for third parties? Too much of a risk cuz we're comfortable with the only two main ones?
Perhaps they should emigrate
 

SoyLeche

meh...
The presidential debate?

It seems to me that a third party that's serious about actually winning elections wouldn't put a lot of resources into the presidential race. Third-party presidential candidates always seemed to me to be using the campaign to draw attention to issues and not so much actually trying to get on a (potentially multi-election) path to victory.

... which is fine, but should be recognized for what it is.

I think that a third party that wanted to win actual elections and get real power to shape the government would focus their energy on just a handful of House districts and concentrate on getting their party elected there.

In the current situation, where the House is usually close to evenly split between Republicans and Democrats, it wouldn't take that many seats being held by a third party to create a situation where that third party holds the balance of power and can decide whether bills pass or get defeated.
You are probably right. Getting on the presidential debate stage would really help down ticket though.
 
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