7-year-old transgender child closes down Girl Scout troops

[Me Myself]

Boy, girl, both or neither. I don't care, as long as they are still selling those peanut butter and chocolate cookies, they are good people to me.

Thankyou! I mean, seriously, discrimnate whoever you want, but CHOCOLATE COOKIES DISTRIBUTORS?!

There is evool out there.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Boy scouts and girl scouts are great places to learn about many important aspects of the world around them and their genders. And I salute them.

With that said, I can't help but wonder if coed scouting could address these same issues without dividing the two genders?

 

[Kathryn]

I'm not very familiar with disorders involving gender. I do know that there are disorders in which there are sexual organs of one gender but chromosomes indicate that the other gender is the most prevalent, so that's what I was asking about.

I just wonder where one draws the line when it comes to organizations whose membership is determined by gender.

 

[JacobEzra.]

Eh, they quite their "jobs". They deprive themselves, and no one else. I say let'em

 

[Drolefille]

I'm not very familiar with disorders involving gender. I do know that there are disorders in which there are sexual organs of one gender but chromosomes indicate that the other gender is the most prevalent, so that's what I was asking about.

I just wonder where one draws the line when it comes to organizations whose membership is determined by gender.

Here's the typical gist when it comes to Gender Identity Disorder and Transgender issues:

Sex: Chromosomal/Physiological presentation
Gender: Mental/Psychological identity.

While sometimes there are chromosomal issues - an individual having an XXY for example. MANY have no chromosomal abnormalities, they're born XX and yet they feel that their gender is male. This isn't just wanting to cross dress, there's not real indication that it's a phenomenon caused by abuse, etc. The only mental disorder involved is due to the fact that their physical body doesn't match their mental identity.

Mental identity is assumed - by the standards of psychologists, DSM, etc. - to be accurate. Some studies have supported that the brains of transgendered individuals actually react more like their gender rather than their biological/chromosomal sex. But overall transgender individuals are happier and healthier if allowed to present and identify however they like, even at very young ages and even if that gender identity is neither male nor female (often ID'd as genderqueer or something else that is non-binary.)

So this kid, forexample, is a girl. She identifies as a girl and chromosomes or genitals don't matter. Brava to her parents for allowing her to present how she likes. It's not the same things as being a boy who likes girly things.

FWIW, The Girl Scouts as an organization are pretty awesome about these issues and they're spot on with their statement on the matter. They state themselves that she identifies and presents as girl therefore she is welcome in the Girl Scouts. That's a pretty good place to draw the line in this cis woman's opinion. (I can see the presentation as a problematic area, but I also understand it for the sake of the organizations so I'm waffling on it.)

 

[Father Heathen]

Has the child been genetically tested to determine his/her sex?

You can't determine if someone is transgendered by that.

I knew a girl who turned out to be a pseudohermaphrodite and didn't discover it until she was 17 that technically she was a male with XY chromosomes. Yes despite this she still continued living as a woman.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Should we start calling it Child Scouts instead?

FWIW, in Canada, what used to be "Boy Scouts" is now just called "Scouts" and is open to children of all genders. They did this decades ago (the change had just happened when I was a Scout, which would've been around 20 years ago now) and so far, neither Scouting nor society has collapsed.

One of my college friends had been in Scouts as a girl, and from everything she told me about the experience, it was a ton of fun for her... just as it was for me.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Why can't we just have Scouts and be done with it?

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Why can't we just have Scouts and be done with it?

I think you can have coed as well as gender based scout activities. The drum and bugle corps I was involved with was technically a boy scout troop. It was coed. i don't know how it all worked, but it allowed the corps some tax breaks.

 

[Reverend Rick]

This stuff just makes me crazy. Who gives a crap what the child has between their legs? Let the kid be a kid and enjoy their life without all this ignorance.

 

[Drolefille]

I think you can have coed as well as gender based scout activities. The drum and bugle corps I was involved with was technically a boy scout troop. It was coed. i don't know how it all worked, but it allowed the corps some tax breaks.

Possibly an Explorer Post? I was in one attached to a Zoo as a volunteer/educational group. But at some point they removed the Explorer Posts from the Boy Scout structure, it was rumored this was because they maintain their 'membership standards' because most posts were attached to police/fire stations. Of course by standards they meant discriminate against gays and atheists and most of those departments had non-discrimination policies.

I can't confirm that was true.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Possibly an Explorer Post?

I think you're right.

But at some point they removed the Explorer Posts from the Boy Scout structure, it was rumored this was because they maintain their 'membership standards' because most posts were attached to police/fire stations. Of course by standards they meant discriminate against gays and atheists and most of those departments had non-discrimination policies.

Sounds consistent with some of the other non-sense coming out of the Boy Scouts. It's a shame.

 

[Kathryn]

I'd be fine with it just being called Scouts and allowing people to express themselves as they see fit.

 

[Drolefille]

I'd be fine with it just being called Scouts and allowing people to express themselves as they see fit.

Start up an organization then if one doesn't exist already.

Otherwise it's a bit like me telling the Lutheran Church I'd be fine with them being more like the Unitarians.

The GSA serves girls, the BSA serves heterosexual, theist cisgendered boys.

I don't think it's the one that allows Bobby to participate that has the problem...

 

[Drolefille]

I think you're right.



Sounds consistent with some of the other non-sense coming out of the Boy Scouts. It's a shame.

I looked them up and the history is a bit confusing but it seems like in about 1998 Explorer Posts and some other non-traditional scouting people were moved off the BSA rolls and into the separate subsidiary Learning for Life - although LfL might have been in existence it wasn't separate until then - following some questions by the agencies about whether it was appropriate to have the BSA groups attached. No mention is made of the discrimination issues but since the posts still exist as non-BSA entities I'd be surprised if that wasn't part of it.

 

[Penumbra]

Start up an organization then if one doesn't exist already.

Otherwise it's a bit like me telling the Lutheran Church I'd be fine with them being more like the Unitarians.

That's a bit unfair, wouldn't you say?

A person being fine with something is different from a person being so passionate about something that they go and try to create a movement. I'm "fine" with a lot of things too; doesn't mean I'm spearheading those things.

Passive support is important. The people who are passionate enough about something to actively change it are working within their particular niche, their particular interest, and they rely on people to support them and who agree with them and who are fine with what they are doing.

 

[Drolefille]

That's a bit unfair, wouldn't you say?

A person being fine with something is different from a person being so passionate about something that they go and try to create a movement. I'm "fine" with a lot of things too; doesn't mean I'm spearheading those things.

Passive support is important. The people who are passionate enough about something to actively change it are working within their particular niche, their particular interest, and they rely on people to support them and who agree with them and who are fine with what they are doing.

No, one doesn't have to go do something. But the impression I got was that Kathryn was suggesting that the GSA (and perhaps the BSA) had her 'approval' to do that. They're not really interested in doing that, so hence my comparison with telling a group I don't belong to that I'm 'fine' with them doing something they have no intent or interest in doing. Maybe I was unclear. Perhaps I could announce that I'm fine with the local country club opening up to the public if that'd be clearer.

Not that I think she was calling up GSA HQ or anything, but combined with her comments on transgender issues on this thread I felt like responding to what was said.

Co-ed scouting organizations are cool, but the GSA is a pretty awesome organization too. I'd hate to see it go away since when it's done right it's good at empowering girls.

 

[Kathryn]

Start up an organization then if one doesn't exist already.

Otherwise it's a bit like me telling the Lutheran Church I'd be fine with them being more like the Unitarians.

The GSA serves girls, the BSA serves heterosexual, theist cisgendered boys.

I don't think it's the one that allows Bobby to participate that has the problem...

See - it's never enough. That's why people get so ticked off. Bobby is NOT a female physically from what I can tell. So it's not enough to say "Call it Scouts and just leave gender out of it." No, everyone has to acknowledge a person with a penis and testicles as a girl.

 

[Kathryn]

No, one doesn't have to go do something. But the impression I got was that Kathryn was suggesting that the GSA (and perhaps the BSA) had her 'approval' to do that.

WHAT? Look, I don't have any girls in Girl Scouts, nor did I much care for Girl Scouts when I was a young girl. In other words, I don't have a vested interest in the group. I am merely expressing my opinion - which is what everyone on this forum does. You're doing the same thing.

They're not really interested in doing that, so hence my comparison with telling a group I don't belong to that I'm 'fine' with them doing something they have no intent or interest in doing. Maybe I was unclear. Perhaps I could announce that I'm fine with the local country club opening up to the public if that'd be clearer.

Right, and I'd consider that your opinion, not a directive, or some sort of unacknowledged urge you have to start up a country club.

Not that I think she was calling up GSA HQ or anything, but combined with her comments on transgender issues on this thread I felt like responding to what was said.

Well, you're right about one thing - I'm not interested enough in this topic to even consider calling the GSA HQ.

But frankly, I believe that if a person has a penis and testicles, and their DNA/genetic code is male, then they are male. Now - do they have the right to carry themselves or consider themselves as female? Sure they do. That doesn't make them female however.

I'm not making a moral judgment on the issue - I'm simply stating that physically they are male, not female - so, IN AN EFFORT TO SQUELCH DISCRIMINATION BASED ON GENDER, I suggested simply calling the group Scouts.

Co-ed scouting organizations are cool, but the GSA is a pretty awesome organization too. I'd hate to see it go away since when it's done right it's good at empowering girls

I believe that the Scouts in general can do a good job of empowering ALL kids, including transgender kids. You don't have to focus on gender at all to empower individuals.

 

[Penumbra]

But frankly, I believe that if a person has a penis and testicles, and their DNA/genetic code is male, then they are male. Now - do they have the right to carry themselves or consider themselves as female? Sure they do. That doesn't make them female however.

If someone is biological male but identifies as a female, would you be unwilling to use female pronouns or refer to the person as a female (or the other way around)?