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.999...=1 and other irrational implications of logic & math

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I am not only very familiar with how certain aspects of logic, formal reasoning, and mathematics can be unintuitive or even appear to be illogical, but have actually used examples of such cases when teaching. However, an off-topic discussion in a recent thread made me realize that, at least for some, notions that I have found most students grasp quickly can be challenging. Also, there exists a number of books Counterexamples in [X-topic] (e.g., Counterexamples in Probability and Statistics, Counterexamples in Probability and Real Analysis, Counterexamples in Topology) filled with subject-specific examples of proofs/derivations of unexpected results. This is because when it comes to mathematics (including logic), truly understanding the implications of various axioms, theorems, propositions, proofs, etc., means knowing how and when they fail to hold, don’t apply, or yield what appear to be (or actually are!) paradoxes.


So I was hoping that others would be willing to provide examples of logical puzzles, paradoxes, seemingly paradoxical aspects of any area of mathematics, amusing implications of formal logic to informal life, or even just a line or two of something they were told is true of mathematics they had trouble grasping (“And remember, this is for posterity so be honest” –Count Rugen from The Princess Bride).


To be fair (and to give some idea of the kind of examples/things I’m looking for), I’ll go first (see below)
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
1. 0.999…= 1

Although incredulity regarding this claim is what motivated this thread, I haven’t generally found that people can’t be convinced that it is true fairly quickly (of course, most people I’ve demonstrated this or similar claims to are math students, so I’m dealing with a biased sample). Also, I already explained why it is true in various ways, so here I’m just going to post two youtube clips. The first shows how/why 0.999…= 1 in a few ways, and the second (by the same individual) is a joke clip containing illogical (but perhaps intuitive!) reasons why this claim is false.


2. My go-to example.

I have often said that any past, present, or future mental health issues I had, have, or will have are due to the fact that my father decided to show me a proof that some infinities are larger than others when I was 6 years old. Cantor, the mathematician who proved this, actually wrote to a fellow mathematician (Dedekind) saying of his own results “Je le vois, mais je ne le crois pas!” (“I see it, but I don’t believe it!”). But I like to combine this result with a property of the real numbers to get something I think even more seemingly paradoxical.

It’s not that hard to show that between any two rational numbers, there exist infinitely many rational numbers: just recall that rational numbers can be written in decimal form, so 0.1 is rational, as is 0.01, 0.001, 0.0001, & 0.00…1. So, for example, even though 0.00000001 is really close to 0.00000002, there are infinitely many rational numbers between them of the form 0.0000000001, 0.0000000001, 0.00…1 (alternatively, I can say that between e.g. one thousandth and two thousandths exist infinitely many rational numbers like one ten thousandth, one millionth, one trillionth, etc.). The mathy way to describe this property is to say that the rationals are “dense” in the real number line.

In other words, intuitively the rational numbers have no “gaps”. If we imagine them as points on a line, no matter how close we “zoomed in” there would be no spaces because the rational numbers are infinitely close to one another.

However, we all know that there are irrational numbers such as pi. Not only that, but Cantor proved that there are more irrational numbers in the interval [0,1] then there are rational numbers all together! So in the interval [0,1], even though there are infinitely many rational numbers infinitely close to one another, the “amount” of “space” they take up (their “length”, or technically speaking their measure) is 0. In this and in every interval, almost all numbers are irrational, such that if you imagine picking a number from any interval at random, the probability that the number would be rational is 0.

To conclude, if we pick any interval—say, [0,1], we have to fit an infinite set of irrational numbers greater than all rational numbers into infinitely small gaps between rational numbers.


3. Double AND Nothing: The Return of The Cantor Set (a blog post I wrote)


4. Hilbert’s hotel


5. Logically irrational


A University student was out for a stroll in the city. We'll call him James (his full name is James James Morrison Morrison Weatherby George Dupree, and at a young age his mother, despite James' instructions, went to a certain area of the town she oughtn’t have and has been missing ever since). Unbeknownst to James, a local protest rally has turned into a riot. Making matters worse, the local police are out arresting people left and right in order to stop the destruction which happened after the last protest rally some weeks ago.

James just happens to walk into the area in which the chaos is occurring. Although he was initially curious to find the source of all the tumult he heard, now that he realizes what's happening he decides the best course of action would be to leave quickly. As he is turning around, however, he sees a rock on the ground. But this is no ordinary rock (and James would know, as he's been collecting rocks since he was three, initially to cope with the loss of his mother). So he picks it up. Unfortunately, it is at that moment that a police officer sees him. Thinking that James is about to throw the rock into the window of a nearby building or car, the officer arrests James.

A few days later, James finds himself in front of the Judge. He has already explained that he picked up the rock because embedded in it was a rather large specimen of a type of quartz not common to the area. The police officer has likewise given his testimony. The judge doesn't feel there is any evidence, so he is inclined to rule not guilty. But he realizes (being the clever individual he is) that James never actually said he wasn't going to throw the rock. So before he pronounces James innocent, he asks "If you weren't arrested, then would you have thrown the rock through a window?"

James is a philosophy student, and having read Frege's Begriffsschrift, the Principia Mathematica, and several other books which all contain systems of propositional and predicate logic, he knows exactly how to answer. After all, the judge has asked a conditional-an "if" question. As any intro to logic student would know, thinks James, a conditional, If a then b, only comes out "false" under one condition (he briefly draws a truth table just to double check; this isn't the time to make mistakes). If the antecedent is true, the "if" part, and the consequent is false, the "then" part, the conditional is false. Otherwise, the conditional is true.

James realizes that the antecedent here is false. He was in fact arrested. Therefore, he reasons, his commitment to logic allows only one answer, as the truth value of the whole conditional is clearly "true." So he says "yes." And is given a death sentence with the possibility of parole given good behavior after the execution.


6. You are presented with three boxes, A, B, & C, one of which contains a check for a million dollars. You are asked to pick box A. Rather than open the box, the game show host opens box C, which is empty. So the check is either in box A, or box B. Should you change your decision, or not? If so, why should you? If not, why not?


7. Imagine a "fair coin" is tossed a number of times (i.e. one that is equally likely to land either heads or tails but will not land on its side). Let's say H is heads and T is tails. Given, say, over a dozen tosses, we would expect a bunch of heads and a bunch of tails. We probably won't get a perfect division, but we would expect something like the following:


HTTTHHHTHTHTHHTTHTHTTHHHHTHTHTTHHTHHHTTTHTHTHTHHHTHHTHT


What we would would not expect, and rightly so, is to get all heads or all tails, like so:


HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH


In other words, the first coin toss above is far more likely to occur than coin toss #two. Right? Wrong.
 
7. Imagine a "fair coin" is tossed a number of times (i.e. one that is equally likely to land either heads or tails but will not land on its side). Let's say H is heads and T is tails. Given, say, over a dozen tosses, we would expect a bunch of heads and a bunch of tails. We probably won't get a perfect division, but we would expect something like the following:


HTTTHHHTHTHTHHTTHTHTTHHHHTHTHTTHHTHHHTTTHTHTHTHHHTHHTHT


What we would would not expect, and rightly so, is to get all heads or all tails, like so:


HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH


In other words, the first coin toss above is far more likely to occur than coin toss #two. Right? Wrong.

I'm going to sleep, so I'll just do this one.

Both sequences are equally likely.

(In a cheating sort of way, I'd say that the 2nd is actually more likely as there is always the chance that your initial belief that the coin was fair is incorrect)
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
So I was hoping that others would be willing to provide examples of logical puzzles, paradoxes, seemingly paradoxical aspects of any area of mathematics, amusing implications of formal logic to informal life, or even just a line or two of something they were told is true of mathematics they had trouble grasping (“And remember, this is for posterity so be honest” –Count Rugen from The Princess Bride).

What has more points?

The surface of a sphere, or the whole sphere (including its surface)?

Ciao

- viole
 

bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member
There's ton's of them but when I was younger the one I found by myself was you can add up the square table only having to square 1.

X + X^2 + (X+1) = (X + 1)^2 The proof works but its still fun
1 + 1 + 2 =4

20 + 400 + 21 = 441

21 + 441 + 22 = 484

So if you could easily calculate the nearest 10 or 5 and add up the rest. But everyone has calculators everywhere these days.
 

bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member
I am not only very familiar with how certain aspects of logic, formal reasoning, and mathematics can be unintuitive or even appear to be illogical, but have actually used examples of such cases when teaching. However, an off-topic discussion in a recent thread made me realize that, at least for some, notions that I have found most students grasp quickly can be challenging. Also, there exists a number of books Counterexamples in [X-topic] (e.g., Counterexamples in Probability and Statistics, Counterexamples in Probability and Real Analysis, Counterexamples in Topology) filled with subject-specific examples of proofs/derivations of unexpected results. This is because when it comes to mathematics (including logic), truly understanding the implications of various axioms, theorems, propositions, proofs, etc., means knowing how and when they fail to hold, don’t apply, or yield what appear to be (or actually are!) paradoxes.


So I was hoping that others would be willing to provide examples of logical puzzles, paradoxes, seemingly paradoxical aspects of any area of mathematics, amusing implications of formal logic to informal life, or even just a line or two of something they were told is true of mathematics they had trouble grasping (“And remember, this is for posterity so be honest” –Count Rugen from The Princess Bride).


To be fair (and to give some idea of the kind of examples/things I’m looking for), I’ll go first (see below)

The problem I see in math is that we use one system for ease but have different dimensional uses. Most failures are from a need linear math, when all me have is dimensional math, Fixed dimensions with infinite points between, or Directional representation as in to the left of zero, negative numbers are not really negative numbers but a direction away from a fixed set.
 

freethinker44

Well-Known Member
Cardinality (number of elements) of infinite number sets comes to mind.
That two sets can each have an infinite cardinality and yet one set has more elements is weird. I mean, how can something be more infinite than something else?
It's not intuitive at first but makes sense eventually.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Number 6 (The Monty Hall Problem) got me when I first saw it.
Now it's obvious why the contestant should switch doors.
But oddly, when I conducted an experiment to show someone else the
advantages of switching, probability was working against me that day.
Stupid randomness!
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
It depends on what you're doing if .999 is equal to 1 or not. If you need precise measurements, something like .999 micrometers and 1 micrometer can mean the difference between a part working just fine and a part failing. And, of course, 1 is a whole number, and a separate whole number from .999. It can only equal one when you round up, which is not suitable or applicable in all situations, as the difference in rounding can add up and give you a number that, although close, would not work when applied to a real world application.
7. Imagine a "fair coin" is tossed a number of times (i.e. one that is equally likely to land either heads or tails but will not land on its side). Let's say H is heads and T is tails. Given, say, over a dozen tosses, we would expect a bunch of heads and a bunch of tails. We probably won't get a perfect division, but we would expect something like the following:


HTTTHHHTHTHTHHTTHTHTTHHHHTHTHTTHHTHHHTTTHTHTHTHHHTHHTHT


What we would would not expect, and rightly so, is to get all heads or all tails, like so:


HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH


In other words, the first coin toss above is far more likely to occur than coin toss #two. Right? Wrong.
Either one is equally possible, as each individual coin toss, and independent event, has a 50/50 chance of being H or T. It doesn't matter what you get, the next toss has a 50/50 chance of being H or T. Of course we probably won't get a perfect division (it has a less than 1% chance of happening compared to all other combinations), but any combination of the dozen flips is equally possible.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Even with the ellipses, it's still not 1.
We went thru some informal proofs on another thread.
It's in the nature of infinity & how it works that 0.9... = 1 exactly.
This is what makes infinity so much fun!

I can't do it for every infinite series, but for many I can show that what they converge upon they're exactly equal to.
And I can do it with a real world physical experiment.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
I am not only very familiar with how certain aspects of logic, formal reasoning, and mathematics can be unintuitive or even appear to be illogical, but have actually used examples of such cases when teaching. However, an off-topic discussion in a recent thread made me realize that, at least for some, notions that I have found most students grasp quickly can be challenging. Also, there exists a number of books Counterexamples in [X-topic] (e.g., Counterexamples in Probability and Statistics, Counterexamples in Probability and Real Analysis, Counterexamples in Topology) filled with subject-specific examples of proofs/derivations of unexpected results. This is because when it comes to mathematics (including logic), truly understanding the implications of various axioms, theorems, propositions, proofs, etc., means knowing how and when they fail to hold, don’t apply, or yield what appear to be (or actually are!) paradoxes.


So I was hoping that others would be willing to provide examples of logical puzzles, paradoxes, seemingly paradoxical aspects of any area of mathematics, amusing implications of formal logic to informal life, or even just a line or two of something they were told is true of mathematics they had trouble grasping (“And remember, this is for posterity so be honest” –Count Rugen from The Princess Bride).


To be fair (and to give some idea of the kind of examples/things I’m looking for), I’ll go first (see below)
the exact circumference of a circle cannot never be measured to the last decimal.
one of the factors has an infinite number of digits behind the decimal point.

yet the circle is finite
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
the exact circumference of a circle cannot never be measured to the last decimal.
one of the factors has an infinite number of digits behind the decimal point.

yet the circle is finite
This is not quite correct.
Example.
If the diameter is 1/(pi) then the circumference is exactly 1.
Of course, then one can't measure the diameter to the last decimal point.
Nor the radius.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
This is not quite correct.
Example.
If the diameter is 1/(pi) then the circumference is exactly 1.
Of course, then one can't measure the diameter to the last decimal point.
Nor the radius.
debate!

I can measure the diameter or the radius.
the distance between two points is finite.
but when figuring the circumference I multiply using 3.141..........................
the infinite item will go on infinitely.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
debate!

I can measure the diameter or the radius.
the distance between two points is finite.
but when figuring the circumference I multiply using 3.141..........................
the infinite item will go on infinitely.
No debate.....I'm just delivering inerrant facts.
(Tis a rare occasion indeeed!)
The dimension is finite, even though it's an irrational number.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
This is not quite correct.
Example.
If the diameter is 1/(pi) then the circumference is exactly 1.
Of course, then one can't measure the diameter to the last decimal point.
Nor the radius.
nope.....if the diameter is 1.....
the circumference is 3.141..............................................................
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
nope.....if the diameter is 1.....
the circumference is 3.141..............................................................
You claimed a general case of the circumference being an irrational number.
I gave a counter example, in which case the circumference is exactly 1.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
You claimed a general case of the circumference being an irrational number.
I gave a counter example, in which case the circumference is exactly 1.
but if the diameter is 1......your point
then the circumference cannot be 1
 
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