A case of demonic possession

[Parsimony]

I wonder what would happen if a demonically-possessed person was to have his/her brain wave patterns/blood flow mapped? Might anything anomalous show up?

 

[Ingledsva]

I wonder what would happen if a demonically-possessed person was to have his/her brain wave patterns/blood flow mapped? Might anything anomalous show up?

I'm going to guess yes, - if it is a brain chemistry problem.


Nothing, if it is faked.



No demons either way.



*

 

[no-body]

The woman is clearly delusional or a liar seeking attention, the children are just following her lead. It's amazing what you can get past even professionals if you set the right mood. If you don't know how a magic trick is done it is easy to fool others despite their education or training.

I read a book by one of the amazing randi's students (wish I could remember the name) who was trained in magic and he went to several "demon possessed" places. Without question all of the demon possessions with children involved them seeking attention and/or following the lead of the parents. It was funny how the children where "cured" when he started spending time with them and encouraged the parents to do the same.

 

[ZooGirl02]

I believe that this really was a case of demonic possession. I just wonder if the exorcisms worked or not.

 

[NobodyYouKnow]

I often wonder if I am possessed.

So many things happen in my life that there's no rational explanation for - scratch that - the least plausible explanation for.

I am often described as being a 'jinx' or a 'curse' and others go to extreme lengths to avoid me. I tend to bring bad luck into other people's lives with regular, sickening monotony - so much so, I have spent over a decade living in total isolation.

I have often believed that I am 'not human', as trying to find traits similar with the rest of humanity is an exercise in futility for me. It's like I exist in a totally separate dimension of being that completely screws up the physical realm and any/all of my interactions within it.

I often wonder, if I am 'exorcised', can/will I be able to live a 'normal life'?

I believe that most (not all) cases can be explained away using mental illnesses like Schizophrenia, Depression or Epilepsy...however, there are some...some cases where the 'spirit' exerts unholy influence on other people and the world around them.

I have been to numerous doctors, and they all prescribe me pills that don't work - so, how does one go about finding out if they are really possessed in the first place? also, how do others know what is 'possessing them'? and how does one go about actually finding a qualified exorcist?

 

[Boyd]

To me, the fact that there are so many similar cases as you say is supportive of their being a real phenomena here. You make the fact of numerous cases sound like a drawback to acceptance when it's just the opposite.

However, when similar cases are consistently debunked, then it does become a major drawback.

Instead, what one can see is that what is happening is mirroring. The individual knows what is meant to happen, and thus they perform in that manner, or the make up those details. While I was working in the "business," that is exactly what I relied on.

 

[George-ananda]

However, when similar cases are consistently debunked, then it does become a major drawback.
.

I do not see cases consistently debunked. I consistently hear skeptics casting doubt and that's about it.

 

[Boyd]

I do not see cases consistently debunked. I consistently hear skeptics casting doubt and that's about it.

What about the Amityville horror case? Would you say that one wasn't debunked, or skeptics simply casted doubt on it?

 

[ruffen]

I do not see cases consistently debunked. I consistently hear skeptics casting doubt and that's about it.

You can say the same about cases of UFO abductions, bigfoot sightings, and those claiming to have been touched by the noodly appendages of The Flying Spaghetti Monster.

If you dismiss any of these ideas, not because they are disproved but because of lack of credible evidence, you know how us demon-possession-skeptics feel.

 

[no-body]

I often wonder if I am possessed.

So many things happen in my life that there's no rational explanation for - scratch that - the least plausible explanation for.

I am often described as being a 'jinx' or a 'curse' and others go to extreme lengths to avoid me. I tend to bring bad luck into other people's lives with regular, sickening monotony - so much so, I have spent over a decade living in total isolation.

I have often believed that I am 'not human', as trying to find traits similar with the rest of humanity is an exercise in futility for me. It's like I exist in a totally separate dimension of being that completely screws up the physical realm and any/all of my interactions within it.

I often wonder, if I am 'exorcised', can/will I be able to live a 'normal life'?

I believe that most (not all) cases can be explained away using mental illnesses like Schizophrenia, Depression or Epilepsy...however, there are some...some cases where the 'spirit' exerts unholy influence on other people and the world around them.

I have been to numerous doctors, and they all prescribe me pills that don't work - so, how does one go about finding out if they are really possessed in the first place? also, how do others know what is 'possessing them'? and how does one go about actually finding a qualified exorcist?

Obviously if you truly believe you are possessed then an exorcism will cure you. It's the same principle as homeopathic medicine.

 

[thau]

That's not true. I know many Christians who reject such an idea, and if you look at more liberal denominations, there is a lack of belief in possession.

Reject what idea? A belief in demons itself, or that demonic possession is a myth? Ok, whatever. The Catholic Church is absolute on the matter. So is anyone who believes in the Bible and tries to interpret it with unbiased integrity. So whatever “Christians” you are talking to, they may as well be agnostics on this subject because they surely are not speaking from a well based Christian perspective.

Actually, it happens quite a bit. There is also the problem of misdiagnosing possessions. Such as, an epileptic child being brought to a priest or minister because they think they are possessed. It simply is a misunderstanding. This is also the reason why none of those "documented" cases stand up to actual scrutiny.

Says who? You? Actual scrutiny in Catholic exorcisms goes far beyond what you may be insinuating. If you read the books of Catholic exorcists, if you read the article I linked to, both those priests and that psychiatrist are very clear on the process. They are quick to first say that the vast majority of those cases brought before them are not cases of demonic possession. Then they make it clear that they order a psychiatric evaluation and a number of other medical evaluations because the majority is mental illness or other medical matters, and not a demonic presence. Then they make it clear that most cases involving demonic attack are not full fledged possession, but are lesser conditions formally classified as “obsession” or “oppression.” It is only after extremely careful analysis and determinations does a Catholic exorcist priest agree to do an exorcism.

Now if you want to use all these various “protestant” versions of taking on the devil or whatever preachers do on TV to try to debunk what the Catholic Church does, be my guest. But I am not your audience because I would call that kind of defense or reasoning, used to refute the authentic ones, flawed.

I am a professional on the subject. In fact, my background makes me an expert on the subject. I have done the same exact work as those "professionals" and I know what goes into it. That is why their claims have to be taken on simple faith.

Whose claims? I very much reject your arguments. You are calling Catholic priests trained as exorcists liars, in your opinion, that is how I read you. In other words, if this is not demonic possession in this case or similar cases --- then, according to you, you de facto are saying the child never spoke in Latin a language she could never have known, or the woman never told events in the witnesses lives she could never have known, or the objects in the room never went flying across the room, or the temperature never got seriously cold and then seriously hot for no reason, or the girl or woman never levitated. No, those things cannot be explained in the natural, so if they did not take place as you imply with your opinion, then the only other reasonable explanation is that the priest, the mother, and all the eye witnesses in the room were lying. And not only in these two cases, but in all cases that have been strictly documented, including the one in St. Lous in the 1940’s used for the movie The Exorcist. Is that what you are saying? Or if you agree those manifestations did occur but were not supernatural, then tell me how did they happen?

In addition, these other conditions are hard to accept as “normal” --- 1. the frightful guttural voice coming out of the child uttering vulgar obscenities was just kids being kids, 2. the child or woman knowing the difference between water and holy water (begins to writhe) was a good guess on their part.

So, the boy, who was holding his grandmothers hand, walked up the wall, onto the ceiling, then did a flip over them, while enver letting go of the grandmothers hand? Think about that a bit. It is an impossiblity, as the grandmothers arm would have been broken. In fact, her shoulder, in order for this to have occurred as reported, would have had to have been ripped out of her socket, and most likely her arm would have had to have been broken.

Also, if you really look at the report, the story gets larger and larger. First, it is the kid walking up the wall. Then its the kid walking up the wall, and flipping over them. Then it's the kid walking up the wall, and the ceiling. The stories do not remain constant. So yes, my explanation is much more logical, and probable.

No, your opinion is not logical. You have rejected the eye witness accounts of many “professionals” who have no ulterior motive to lie about this. Their testimony and their professional status carries a lot more weight in finding the truth here than does yours.

I repeat:

Indiana Dept. of Child Services family case manager Valerie Washington was asked to handle the initial investigation. She gave the following account to police and in her intake officer's report:

Also present in the exam room was RN Willie Lee Walker and Campbell, the child’s grandmother. Walker, the nurse — the 9-year-old had a "weird grin" and walked backward up a wall to the ceiling. He then flipped over Campbell, landing on his feet. He never let go of his grandmother's hand. "He walked up the wall, flipped over her and stood there," Walker told The Star. "There's no way he could've done that." Later, police asked Washington whether the boy had run up the wall, as though performing an acrobatic trick. No, Washington told them. She said the boy "glided backward on the floor, wall and ceiling," according to a police report… She told police she was scared when it happened and ran out of the room.
​

I believe the two professionals’ accounts who were in the room when the child went backwards up the wall, period. Why do you accept professionals' opinions or scientists’ (with no religious angle) opinions when they agree with your beliefs, but then dismiss them when they do not?

Your whole defense on the grandmother’s arm would be twisted or broken is weak. (imo)

By the way --- if someone does not believe in God, or is an agnostic and doubts there is any evidence for God in this world --- then what their opinion is of the devil obviously concerns me far less. They need to reject the devil to keep their contention of ‘no God’ viable.

 

[George-ananda]

What about the Amityville horror case? Would you say that one wasn't debunked, or skeptics simply casted doubt on it?

The Amityville case is still very controversial and I would not consider that debunked at all.

The general pattern is some professional skeptic claims to debunk something and all those sympathetic to that belief join the flock. I have grown skeptical of the Skeptics myself as they have an agenda to disparage anything that smacks of god, the spiritual or the paranormal. I do not consider them open-minded investigators.

 

[George-ananda]

You can say the same about cases of UFO abductions, bigfoot sightings, and those claiming to have been touched by the noodly appendages of The Flying Spaghetti Monster.

We each make our own judgments. UFO and bigfoot sightings are still mysteries to me. Spaghetti monster gets a zero from me.

Each subject is unrelated and these things can't be lumped in one basket.

If you dismiss any of these ideas, not because they are disproved but because of lack of credible evidence, you know how us demon-possession-skeptics feel.

I see a difference between credible and incredible possibilities.

 

[George-ananda]

T Such as, an epileptic child being brought to a priest or minister

Are you thinking these epileptic children are also faking paranormal activity well enough to fool adults? If there were not these paranormal claims then there wouldn't even be a controversy to debate.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Thau I overlooked the last bit of your post:

Do you find this Columbia University psychiatrist’s case study of a demonically possessed to be filled with fabrications?
http://forums.understanding-islam.com/showthread.php?10296-A-case-of-demonic-possession

​

That is actually not what I was talking about but just the fact that charlatans are in plentiful supply as are people willing to listen to them. I personally hold Catholics responsible in part for that by the way, because I see the Catholics who have all the various traditional understanding as kind of responsible for other 'Christians'. I see you're willing to dissociate from the protestants as were previous generations in your group. They dissociated from you, and you are now separate from them. Their problems aren't your problems, and they are on their own. It doesn't sound very good to me. If you can drive out demons, how about driving out the ones the keep the protestants from becoming Catholic. Its a fair challenge I think; and I don't see any difference between claiming the ability to drive out a demon or to call people back to the 'Absolute' catholic church. If you can do one you should be able to do the other.

My own experience is that there are always people willing to profit from deceit, and they are equally comfortable in church as out of it. Its good that your particular branch of the catholic majority does some psychological screenings for safety sake.

 

[Boyd]

The Amityville case is still very controversial and I would not consider that debunked at all.

The general pattern is some professional skeptic claims to debunk something and all those sympathetic to that belief join the flock. I have grown skeptical of the Skeptics myself as they have an agenda to disparage anything that smacks of god, the spiritual or the paranormal. I do not consider them open-minded investigators.

I don't see how this case can be controversial when it seems like a clear case of fraud. The fact the family went back shortly after the "haunting" seems quite telling.

The fact that no other family has ever recalled any such hauntings (and usually that is true for all of these supposed haunted houses) is more telling.

Then there is the problem that the priest who supposedly was driven from the house, when asked, said no such thing happened, and he saw nothing in that house. There is also the problem that the supposed Indian tribe that settled that area weren't actually from that area at all. The supposed damage to the house also never happened, as could be seen after the fact. The Lutzes lawyer also stated that they just made the whole thing up. So the story is an admitted hoax.

Not to mention that Ed and Lorraine Warren, the investigators, have been shown to be frauds. The authors of their books have made that quite clear.

So I don't think it actually is that controversial, seeing when the evidence is actually looked at, it clearly is a hoax.

Are you thinking these epileptic children are also faking paranormal activity well enough to fool adults? If there were not these paranormal claims then there wouldn't even be a controversy to debate.

Not at all. I'm saying that people who are ignorant mistake epileptic episodes as paranormal activity.

If you watch the supposed demonic possessions that people have filmed, there is no unexplainable activity in them. Instead, if one knows what to look for, completely natural illnesses or disorders can be diagnosed. There are even a few groups in India (and other places in Southeast Asia, and maybe Africa, but I'm not sure about that), one in which I have worked with, that actually went around debunking such possessions, and getting the children the help they actually needed. This work was largely in response to numerous children dying of supposed possession, even though their symptoms were in common with natural illnesses/disorders. There have even been cases in which families and exorcists have been tried for child endangerment (and death) because they refused to accept the doctors diagnosis and decided that it was a possession instead.

Now, if someone got a video or something of this demonic activity that truly was supernatural, such as the person levitating, walking up walls, or the like, it would be more believable. But when the person appears to be having a seizure, and is in need of medical help, such activity is just abuse.

 

[no-body]

Or if you agree those manifestations did occur but were not supernatural, then tell me how did they happen?

In addition, these other conditions are hard to accept as “normal” --- 1. the frightful guttural voice coming out of the child uttering vulgar obscenities was just kids being kids, 2. the child or woman knowing the difference between water and holy water (begins to writhe) was a good guess on their part.

No, your opinion is not logical. You have rejected the eye witness accounts of many “professionals” who have no ulterior motive to lie about this. Their testimony and their professional status carries a lot more weight in finding the truth here than does yours.

I repeat:

Indiana Dept. of Child Services family case manager Valerie Washington was asked to handle the initial investigation. She gave the following account to police and in her intake officer's report:

Also present in the exam room was RN Willie Lee Walker and Campbell, the child’s grandmother. Walker, the nurse — the 9-year-old had a "weird grin" and walked backward up a wall to the ceiling. He then flipped over Campbell, landing on his feet. He never let go of his grandmother's hand. "He walked up the wall, flipped over her and stood there," Walker told The Star. "There's no way he could've done that." Later, police asked Washington whether the boy had run up the wall, as though performing an acrobatic trick. No, Washington told them. She said the boy "glided backward on the floor, wall and ceiling," according to a police report… She told police she was scared when it happened and ran out of the room.
​

I believe the two professionals’ accounts who were in the room when the child went backwards up the wall, period. Why do you accept professionals' opinions or scientists’ (with no religious angle) opinions when they agree with your beliefs, but then dismiss them when they do not?

Your whole defense on the grandmother’s arm would be twisted or broken is weak. (imo)

By the way --- if someone does not believe in God, or is an agnostic and doubts there is any evidence for God in this world --- then what their opinion is of the devil obviously concerns me far less. They need to reject the devil to keep their contention of ‘no God’ viable.

These cases weren't studied under close observation. A nurse and a caseworker imo don't have the training to see beyond what could be simple magic tricks or just tricks of the light. You can make it seem like you are levitating if you know how to do it. A child can look really creepy if they work at it and are taking cues from the people around them.

 

[George-ananda]

I don't see how this case can be controversial when it seems like a clear case of fraud. The fact the family went back shortly after the "haunting" seems quite telling.

The fact that no other family has ever recalled any such hauntings (and usually that is true for all of these supposed haunted houses) is more telling.

Then there is the problem that the priest who supposedly was driven from the house, when asked, said no such thing happened, and he saw nothing in that house. There is also the problem that the supposed Indian tribe that settled that area weren't actually from that area at all. The supposed damage to the house also never happened, as could be seen after the fact. The Lutzes lawyer also stated that they just made the whole thing up. So the story is an admitted hoax.

Not to mention that Ed and Lorraine Warren, the investigators, have been shown to be frauds. The authors of their books have made that quite clear.

So I don't think it actually is that controversial, seeing when the evidence is actually looked at, it clearly is a hoax.

My point is this is the way things typically go. Skeptics are interested in all the evidence and arguments they can muster on one side of the fence and intentionally try to get us to disregard the evidence and argumentation on the other side of the fence. That is why I said I am skeptical of Skeptics as they investigate with an agenda. I haven't read about Amityville in years and am not up on the details. This is not about one example you brought up. I'm making a general observation about Skeptics here; they are not open-minded investigators but only slanters of evidence to support an agenda against anything that smacks of God, the spiritual or the paranormal. That fact couldn't be more obvious to me.

Not at all. I'm saying that people who are ignorant mistake epileptic episodes as paranormal activity.

If you watch the supposed demonic possessions that people have filmed, there is no unexplainable activity in them. Instead, if one knows what to look for, completely natural illnesses or disorders can be diagnosed. There are even a few groups in India (and other places in Southeast Asia, and maybe Africa, but I'm not sure about that), one in which I have worked with, that actually went around debunking such possessions, and getting the children the help they actually needed. This work was largely in response to numerous children dying of supposed possession, even though their symptoms were in common with natural illnesses/disorders. There have even been cases in which families and exorcists have been tried for child endangerment (and death) because they refused to accept the doctors diagnosis and decided that it was a possession instead.

Now, if someone got a video or something of this demonic activity that truly was supernatural, such as the person levitating, walking up walls, or the like, it would be more believable. But when the person appears to be having a seizure, and is in need of medical help, such activity is just abuse.

No doubt people, particularly in certain areas of the world, make false diagnoses of possession and children are hurt. That's a separate subject.

My interest for this discussion is if paranormal activity ever occurs in the strongest cases. In the strongest cases I believe they do based on the quality and quantity of reports.

Videos of paranormal activity abound on the internet but with the latest video technology skeptics can always claim fake.

 

[NobodyYouKnow]

I found out today that I am not possessed. I am psychic.

 

[Parsimony]

I found out today that I am not possessed. I am psychic.

In what sense? Telepathic? Telekinetic? Clairvoyant?