A Challenge for those who believe in a loving God

[Saint Frankenstein]

Not even a "please"?
8. Spoils Of War, Booty
It's from
The Quran Translation by Yusuf Ali

It's talking about a battle. It's not saying "go out and kill people who aren't Muslim". Killing non-Muslims makes no sense, anyway, because you're robbing them of a chance to repent.

 

[Revoltingest]

It's talking about a battle. It's not saying "go out and kill people who aren't Muslim". Killing non-Muslims makes no sense, anyway, because you're robbing them of a chance to repent.

I read what it says, which isn't what you're objecting to.
It speaks to what their god will do to unbelievers.
It's infinitely cruel.
This loving god loves many things, including torture of those who (in my eyes) have done no wrong.
To accept this religion as true is to accept this cruelty.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I read what it says, which isn't what you're objecting to.
It speaks to what their god will do to unbelievers.
It's infinitely cruel.
This loving god loves many things, including torture of those who (in my eyes) have done no wrong.
To accept this religion as true is to accept this cruelty.

Food for thought: https://www.quora.com/Are-non-Muslims-going-to-heaven-according-to-Islam

In Islam, those going to hell are usually depicted as the most wicked who have clear proofs of God's religion yet scoff at it, like in the days of Noah. It's more than just "oh, I don't believe". God knows best and He knows all.

 

[Revoltingest]

Food for thought: https://www.quora.com/Are-non-Muslims-going-to-heaven-according-to-Islam

In Islam, those going to hell are usually depicted as the most wicked who have clear proofs of God's religion yet scoff at it, like in the days of Noah. It's more than just "oh, I don't believe". God knows best and He knows all.

Is the translation wrong?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Is the translation wrong?

Not that I know of. The Ali translation is probably one of the best English translations but it lacks commentary and is old. You might want to look into getting this, if you really want to delve into the Qur'an: The Study Quran

It rigorously goes into pretty much each verse.

You'll have Muslims who think everyone except them is going to hell and Muslims who think pretty much no one is going to hell. It's a diverse religion, like all others.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Nature is what it is. Everything on earth is temporary, including suffering (even what we call "Hell" is temporary.)
Why would a "loving God" allow this?
Why would God only be what we perceive as good? Why would God only do good things? Everything has a dark side, everything has aspects that we don't think are "good." This includes "God."
I have no issue with this duality. Everything is a matter of perspective. To the wasp, it is merely giving it's progeny a real good chance to survive. To the caterpillar, it is being used horribly, inflicted with terrible suffering. Both are valid viewpoints, it is only humans who need to see things in a Good/Bad dichotomy to even attempt to apply morality to situations such as these.

(For the record I fully accept the Theory of Evolution.)

The OP is only really applicable to those believing in an omnipotent, omnibenevolent version of God. I've seen the argument made only in relation to some forms of Christianity, to be honest.

 

[Revoltingest]

Not that I know of. The Ali translation is probably one of the best English translations but it lacks commentary and is old. You might want to look into getting this, if you really want to delve into the Qur'an: The Study Quran

It rigorously goes into pretty much each verse.

You'll have Muslims who think everyone except them is going to hell and Muslims who think pretty much no one is going to hell. It's a diverse religion, like all others.

I'm aware that there's diversity of belief.
But the translation says what it says.
Is there an objective & verifiable basis to interpret it otherwise?

 

[Jeremiahcp]

I am going to describe a scenario in the natural world that makes it extremely difficult for me to believe in the existence of a loving, intervening deity:

A certain species of wasp bores a hole into a caterpillar, and injects it with venom that paralyzes it, yet does not at all numb its sense of pain. The wasp then lays its eggs (up to 80 at a time) inside of the caterpillar, and they gradually hatch and mature, literally eating the caterpillar from the inside out all while it is suffering tremendously yet is powerless to do anything about it (remember it has been paralyzed). This process continues for days until the wasps eventually exit the caterpillar, leaving the caterpillar to live the remainder of its life paralyzed and in excruciating pain until it eventually starves to death after this horrible ordeal.

So, I ask you, how can you reconcile your belief in a benevolent deity with such a horrible natural phenomena? Only an monstrously evil sadist of a god would design a process like this. However, it makes sense if the world is guided by indifferent evolutionary processes. As the great Dawkins has said, nature is not cruel, just pitilessly indifferent.

God works in mysterious ways.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I'm aware that there's diversity of belief.
But the translation says what it says.
Is there an objective & verifiable basis to interpret it otherwise?

Yeah, it's called interpretation and theology.

If you don't believe in it, what does it matter?

 

[Jeremiahcp]

The simple and obvious answer is that God's understanding is far beyond that of humans, and for those with faith in God it is simply a matter of trusting that God knows best.

 

[Revoltingest]

Yeah, it's called interpretation and theology.

If you don't believe in it, what does it matter?

It matters to those of us who consider what religions are all about.
Since this is the Religion & Science forum, we're free to look
at the former from the perspective of methods the latter.
This illuminates how believers will view us, & perhaps deal with us.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

Also you might find this photo a more compelling statement than your bug, people don't care about bugs.

This is 13-year-old Omayra Sanchez who was trapped in debris caused by a mudslide of volcanic ash, which created a concrete like mixture. She remained trapped in that water for three days then died. If you want the details Google it, but it is not a happy read.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Yeah, it's called interpretation and theology.

If you don't believe in it, what does it matter?

Believers shape the world we live in.
But I obviously can't speak for @Revoltingest.

 

[Revoltingest]

Believers shape the world we live in.
But I obviously can't speak for @Revoltingest.

You just did.

 

[sun rise]

I read what it says, which isn't what you're objecting to.
It speaks to what their god will do to unbelievers.
It's infinitely cruel.
This loving god loves many things, including torture of those who (in my eyes) have done no wrong.
To accept this religion as true is to accept this cruelty.

So you judge a religion by a literal reading of a tiny passage in a scripture ignoring the context (a time of war) and ignoring everything else in that scripture and associated (Hadith) that contradicts that one verse such as the verses that say to return evil with good and thus make a friend of your enemy. Or the many Hadith restating the golden rule.

To avoid a certain response, scriptures have passages that I find dark and negative. People find whatever will confirm their prejudices so what people often quote says more about them than about the holy book.

 

[Kemosloby]

Do not fear that which kills the body but not the soul in hell. Perhaps the caterpillar will do better in the next life.

 

[Deeje]

Punishment is time out in the corner or being grounded. Burning your child in flames is just plain monstrous.

I agree.....the God of the Bible would never do that. (Jeremiah 7:31) Hell is a pagan concept, not a Jewish belief.
Jesus was Jewish, sent to Jews with the Hebrew scriptures.

God gave Israel the choice between life and death....not heaven or hell. (Deuteronomy 30:19-20) He told them to choose life and how to qualify for it. The worst punishment God gives anyone is death.....back to the dust.....gone forever.

 

[The Holy Bottom Burp]

Meh, the debate about whether caterpillars feel pain aside, I think it was a bit ghoulish of the deity to make it so that one species has to eat another in order to survive. Couldn't he have just made plants super nutritious and tasty? If I was designing a planet full of living beings I don't think I'd make it a rule that one has to eat another in order to survive, it seems unnecessarily brutal. I'm not a vegetarian, but I think god could have made all creatures Vegan, how about some steak flavoured lettuce? He lacks creativity with his thinking...

 

[SomeRandom]

The OP is only really applicable to those believing in an omnipotent, omnibenevolent version of God. I've seen the argument made only in relation to some forms of Christianity, to be honest.

Oh. Well we believe in an omnipotent "God." Not sure about omnibenevolent. Does that count?

 

[Grandliseur]

I am going to describe a scenario in the natural world that makes it extremely difficult for me to believe in the existence of a loving, intervening deity:

A certain species of wasp bores a hole into a caterpillar, and injects it with venom that paralyzes it, yet does not at all numb its sense of pain. The wasp then lays its eggs (up to 80 at a time) inside of the caterpillar, and they gradually hatch and mature, literally eating the caterpillar from the inside out all while it is suffering tremendously yet is powerless to do anything about it (remember it has been paralyzed). This process continues for days until the wasps eventually exit the caterpillar, leaving the caterpillar to live the remainder of its life paralyzed and in excruciating pain until it eventually starves to death after this horrible ordeal.

So, I ask you, how can you reconcile your belief in a benevolent deity with such a horrible natural phenomena? Only an monstrously evil sadist of a god would design a process like this. However, it makes sense if the world is guided by indifferent evolutionary processes. As the great Dawkins has said, nature is not cruel, just pitilessly indifferent.

I can see that you really have an open mind on this subject!

As an atheist asked me recently, do you feel better now that you have gotten this off your chest?! It is not as if anything at all I might say would change your mind. In that case, silence is golden.

(I think I could think of many other cases of lack of pity, so to say; I still believe in a loving God. Why do you think I do?)