A Challenge to the Theist and Atheist

[Sanmario]

Now, since we are just playing a game, let me take a recess, and return to reality.

Here is my theist's concept of evidence, in the most concise and precise and simple language:

"Evidence is anything in existence or in concept in our mind, that leads man to know the existence of another thing in objective existence or in existence in our mind."

For example, the nose in our face is evidence of God existing in concept as first and foremost the creator and operator of the universe and man and everything with a beginning.

For example of a concept as evidence: when you have a concept of a baby and I have a concept of a baby, then we two have the evidence that you and I are capable of abstract knowledge in our mind.


Do you atheists here no longer playing theists but conducting yourselves as sincere, honest, good faith searchers of truths, facts, and logic, now care to put aside your self-identity as atheists, but now as sincere, honest, good faith searchers of truths, facts, and logic, care to join together with me to discuss what is evidence, in re God existing or not?

What about you do some genuine thinking on whether there can be evidence to the non-existence of something?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Many times, Theist blame me for not understanding God.
I would love having a challenge.
Lets switch roles!

I will debate pro God, and you will debate Against.

I Assume one of two will be then clear:

1. Either I really am ignorant for anything relates to spirituality (Thus I will not be able to make my case)
2. I will successfully make my case and at least show that some atheist, know the spiritual "realm" better than you think.

I will however, probably be leaning more towards the Jewish God, as this is the Religion I was born into.

Cheers

Sorry, don't understand the debate you suggest. I'm certainly happy to argue against God, to your argument for. Bug what does :spirituality," which you mention in both your points, have to do with that existence? Either God exists or doesn't. Someone is "spiritual" or isn't. But I can't find anything that makes one conditional upon the other.

God's "existence" cannot depend upon you belief (or your "spirituality," if you will). If He did, then God would cease to exist the moment that you did, and would never have existed before you did.

So! I will take up your challenge: if you debate "pro God," I will debate against. But be warned, I won't be at all interested in what you believe, only in what you can demonstrate.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

As a theist with you Jay, you are correct to ask me for what is evidence, because I playing the atheist's role state that there is no evidence for God.

I asked you to define evidence. Do you have some problem with that request?

 

[ADigitalArtist]

I asked you to define evidence. Do you have some problem with that request?

They did here A Challenge to the Theist and Atheist
For what it's worth...

 

[Willamena]

Dear Jay, you are now the theist and I the atheist, this can be confusing because atheists are to the core without logic and system, whatsoever.

As a theist with you Jay, you are correct to ask me for what is evidence, because I playing the atheist's role state that there is no evidence for God.

Now, playing again the atheist's with his lack of logic and system whatsoever, as per my experience with them in the internet, here is my answer to you, as playing the atheist's role:

If you theist do not know what is evidence, please go away, you don't belong here in a forum, period.


Dear readers, let us sit back and observe how Jay will now play the theist's role.

I tell you, readers here, if you have ever tried to talk reason with atheists in the internet, you will notice that they are more up to all manners of flippancy and evasion, than into sincere good faith honest logical and systematic exchange of thoughts, on reason and observation and intelligent conclusion on the issue at hand.

Jay is not atheist.

If you, playing the atheist, have a logic and system whatsoever, perhaps you could let us know.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

They did here A Challenge to the Theist and Atheist
For what it's worth...

It's worth a lot. I stand corrected.

So, @Sanmario offers:

"Evidence is anything in existence or in concept in our mind, that leads man to know the existence of another thing in objective existence or in existence in our mind." [emphasis added - JS]​

Let me then ask:

What would be your objection to replacing the word know with the word infer?​

And, if not, why not?

 

[Willamena]

Power to the Empiricist.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Now, since we are just playing a game, let me take a recess, and return to reality.

Here is my theist's concept of evidence, in the most concise and precise and simple language:

"Evidence is anything in existence or in concept in our mind, that leads man to know the existence of another thing in objective existence or in existence in our mind."

For example, the nose in our face is evidence of God existing in concept as first and foremost the creator and operator of the universe and man and everything with a beginning.

For example of a concept as evidence: when you have a concept of a baby and I have a concept of a baby, then we two have the evidence that you and I are capable of abstract knowledge in our mind.


Do you atheists here no longer playing theists but conducting yourselves as sincere, honest, good faith searchers of truths, facts, and logic, now care to put aside your self-identity as atheists, but now as sincere, honest, good faith searchers of truths, facts, and logic, care to join together with me to discuss what is evidence, in re God existing or not?

What about you do some genuine thinking on whether there can be evidence to the non-existence of something?

I think you're putting all atheist in a pot (hopefully, it's not based on atheist online).

God is something or someone we deem worthy of worship. Anyone and anything can be a god. I can prove that. How can you deny it as a "hypothetical atheist"?

God is life. Life or that spark is what keeps us moving and growing and everything above. Life is our thoughts and the animals that grow. Life is everything both living and not. What is a good word for life-well, life runs on a lot of things, energy (which can be proven), for example. We need heat so yes, I can prove the sun exist. H2O exists as so do oxygen and carbon monoxide. People worship life or god because of gratitude for living. All the details are culture, traditions, and history that shape our concept of life or god. I can prove those exist too.

If you mean a spirit, how do you define a spirit a part from a human being? Some say spirit is that "life-spark" as we all know by definition, spirit also means breathe and inspiration. We can't live without air. We are motivated by inspiration. I can prove they exist.

Whether we want to personify it is up to the religion and culture. However, at it's barebones, god is life. Who can prove god doesn't exist?

Atheists?

 

[JustWondering]

I consider the human race to be an irrational species. The fact that we've been sitting on an arsenal of nuclear weapons that could end us and not use it in 60 years could be taken as evidence that something is watching over us and keeping us from destroying ourselves.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Many times, Theist blame me for not understanding God.
I would love having a challenge.
Lets switch roles!

I will debate pro God, and you will debate Against.

I Assume one of two will be then clear:

1. Either I really am ignorant for anything relates to spirituality (Thus I will not be able to make my case)
2. I will successfully make my case and at least show that some atheist, know the spiritual "realm" better than you think.

I will however, probably be leaning more towards the Jewish God, as this is the Religion I was born into.

Cheers

Let us begin....first...is your God finite or infinite?

 

[Jumi]

I could argue that a reason to go for belief God of some kind is because people want them to exist or feel that they compliment existence. There is a source of inspiration there.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Just you all wait until God shows up.

 

[Prestor John]

Many times, Theist blame me for not understanding God.
I would love having a challenge.
Lets switch roles!

I will debate pro God, and you will debate Against.

I Assume one of two will be then clear:

1. Either I really am ignorant for anything relates to spirituality (Thus I will not be able to make my case)
2. I will successfully make my case and at least show that some atheist, know the spiritual "realm" better than you think.

I will however, probably be leaning more towards the Jewish God, as this is the Religion I was born into.

Cheers

I don't believe this to be at all necessary.

This debate seems like it would be rather egotistical, which I believe makes it pointless.

Besides, neither point could be "proven" anyways.

Let's just say that it is wrong to place "blame" on someone else disagreeing with you.

There is nothing inherently wrong with disagreeing with theists or atheists. No one is to blame.

 

[QuestioningMind]

No need to switch role. dear Segev.

I will reason from intelligence and observation to the existence of God, and you on your part see what or how you come to your conviction of there being no God.

First, of course we have to get linked up, with concurring on the concept of God, because when we don't concur on the concept of God, we will be acting illogically, with talking about a thing with deferent idea of what it is.

What do you say, do you have a concept of God?

Here is my concept of God:

"God in concept is first and foremost the creator and operator of the universe and man and everything with a beginning."

Take careful attention, what I present is a concept, not a proof of God existing.

From my experience with atheists, they regularly get all worked up with insisting that I am already into the prejudgment that God exists, with proposing my idea of what is God.

So, I ask them, if you propose a concept of Bigfoot before you go forth to seek evidence of his existence, is that already a prejudgment that Bigfoot exists?

That is always the illogical phobia or in effect taboo of atheists, mistaking a concept for a prejudgment.

What you should do, dear atheists, is to examine the concept to see whether it is a valid concept or not; but sad to say, you atheists are not cognizant of such an intellectual subtlety, that is why you are ever into very shallow water when you argue against God existing.

I'm not aware of any atheists who claim that the CONCEPT of god doesn't exist. The argument is that there is no verifiable evidence to believe that the concept is real. I also assert that there is not verifiable;e evidence for big foot to conclude that it is real, however I am now claiming that the CONCEPT of big foot doesn't exist.

 

[Sanmario]

Thanks to the author of this thread.

Now, let us all work as to concur in our respective mind on what is evidence in re God exists or not.

Here is again my gambit of a concept of evidence [see below for the post of concern].

"Evidence is anything in existence or in concept in our mind, that leads man to know the existence of another thing in objective existence or in existence in our mind."

So, can we concur in our respective mind that evidence is something at all that exists in objective reality outside of our mind and/or even just in our mind as a thought?

So, the first and very simple proposition in our minds is the following:

"Evidence is something existing in reality outside and independent of our mind and/or in our mind as a thought."

From simplicity to complexity, that is the way to do systematic thinking, instead of plunging right away into labyrinthine dense hard to sort out thoughts.

So, if I may, starting with the OP author, please everyone put your mind to work, and see what revisions you feel should be made on this proposition in our mind:

"Evidence is something existing in reality outside and independent of our mind and/or in our mind as a thought."

Dear readers here, let us sit back and witness how posters here will react to my thinking at this point in time.

Now, since we are just playing a game, let me take a recess, and return to reality.

Here is my theist's concept of evidence, in the most concise and precise and simple language:

"Evidence is anything in existence or in concept in our mind, that leads man to know the existence of another thing in objective existence or in existence in our mind."

For example, the nose in our face is evidence of God existing in concept as first and foremost the creator and operator of the universe and man and everything with a beginning.

For example of a concept as evidence: when you have a concept of a baby and I have a concept of a baby, then we two have the evidence that you and I are capable of abstract knowledge in our mind.


Do you atheists here no longer playing theists but conducting yourselves as sincere, honest, good faith searchers of truths, facts, and logic, now care to put aside your self-identity as atheists, but now as sincere, honest, good faith searchers of truths, facts, and logic, care to join together with me to discuss what is evidence, in re God existing or not?

What about you do some genuine thinking on whether there can be evidence to the non-existence of something?

 

[QuestioningMind]

I think you're putting all atheist in a pot (hopefully, it's not based on atheist online).

God is something or someone we deem worthy of worship. Anyone and anything can be a god. I can prove that. How can you deny it as a "hypothetical atheist"?

God is life. Life or that spark is what keeps us moving and growing and everything above. Life is our thoughts and the animals that grow. Life is everything both living and not. What is a good word for life-well, life runs on a lot of things, energy (which can be proven), for example. We need heat so yes, I can prove the sun exist. H2O exists as so do oxygen and carbon monoxide. People worship life or god because of gratitude for living. All the details are culture, traditions, and history that shape our concept of life or god. I can prove those exist too.

If you mean a spirit, how do you define a spirit a part from a human being? Some say spirit is that "life-spark" as we all know by definition, spirit also means breathe and inspiration. We can't live without air. We are motivated by inspiration. I can prove they exist.

Whether we want to personify it is up to the religion and culture. However, at it's barebones, god is life. Who can prove god doesn't exist?

Atheists?

That's kind of a silly argument, don't you think? If you're going to simply define god as something we all know exists then it becomes meaningless. That's like saying God is the universe. Why not just say universe then? God is life... then argue that life exists, not that God exists just because you want to start calling life God. That's like me claiming that magical flying unicorns exist and then clarifying that when I say magical flying unicorns I actually mean rabbits.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

That's kind of a silly argument, don't you think? If you're going to simply define god as something we all know exists then it becomes meaningless. That's like saying God is the universe. Why not just say universe then? God is life... then argue that life exists, not that God exists just because you want to start calling life God. That's like me claiming that magical flying unicorns exist and then clarifying that when I say magical flying unicorns I actually mean rabbits.

I don't use the word god for that very reason. However god, our our concept of life, is shaped and defined differently by various cultures and traditions. So arguing about the christian view of god and the hindu view of god, to me personally, doesn't make sense. Unless we are comparing or contrasting their culture, tradition, and language that defines their gods, what is there left to talk about?

Kind of like having a box, taking out the physical walls to talk about the air that's in the box. While a box is shaped in a way that leaves empty space inside it's walls, instead of talking about the empty space as if it were a thing of its own, maybe talk about the box itself and get a definition based on the box (big, small, etc) so we know the characteristics of the space inside it.

 

[Segev Moran]

Fire the first shot. Defend the existence of God.

I'll start with the obvious.
no matter how you define God, Eventually, It will always leads to One.
One source.
One power that governs the universe as we know and as we don't.

You can say Gravity holds our universe, I Say God is Gravity.
You say that Your choices are based on millions of preceding decisions, I Say this is God.

God is the sum of it all.

As we get smarter on the scientific purview, we encounter more and more wonders than ever imagined. Each discovery pops a new question.

Imagine we discover a new dimension. Such one that vibrates in another frequency...
Scientifically you would say it a natural thing...
Yet spiritual realm is indeed a different dimension.

God could not have taught the ancient people science to such levels. So he described it in a short description that even today still being taught and analysed by all the monotheist in the world!

I would love to see you explaining the process of Earth being generated to a tribe member (today) that never heard of the term science.

6 Isolated Groups Who Had No Idea That Civilization Existed

( Take your pick )

 

[Segev Moran]

No need to switch role. dear Segev.

You clearly missed the whole point of this thread.

But I just had to reply to few points.

I Would love for you to open your idea in a new thread and send me the link. I Have much to reply for your arguments

So, I ask them, if you propose a concept of Bigfoot before you go forth to seek evidence of his existence, is that already a prejudgment that Bigfoot exists?

If you have special rituals that are all based on the assumption that it exists, then yes.. It is making a prejudgment.

Would you accept something like that as reasonable:

Your friend starts walking with watermelon on his head.
In reply to you asking why, he might say it keeps away the aliens.

He only states the concept of aliens.. NP! but once you start acting as if they are real before validating it... thats a whole other issue.

 

[Segev Moran]

Sorry, don't understand the debate you suggest. I'm certainly happy to argue against God, to your argument for. Bug what does :spirituality," which you mention in both your points, have to do with that existence? Either God exists or doesn't. Someone is "spiritual" or isn't. But I can't find anything that makes one conditional upon the other.

God's "existence" cannot depend upon you belief (or your "spirituality," if you will). If He did, then God would cease to exist the moment that you did, and would never have existed before you did.

So! I will take up your challenge: if you debate "pro God," I will debate against. But be warned, I won't be at all interested in what you believe, only in what you can demonstrate.

Of course.

Wouldn't expect any less from a skeptic