"A Christian Speaks of Wicca" article

[Samara]

Hello all,

I'm not sure is this has been advertised, so i thought i might.

As a Wiccan, often I get tired of the "Christians hate Wiccans/Christians vilify all Wiccans/etc" arguments. Often i have found this to be true, and often i have found this to be false.

I came across this atricle a few years back, and it was a lovely breath of fresh air.

http://www.wicca.com/celtic/wicca/christian.htm


Enjoy!

 

[Draka]

That was, indeed, lovely. I wish more had that view and would encourage anyone who believes differently to read it.

 

[Draka]

As I notice that you are new here and haven't posted an intro I'd thought I'd give you the courtesy link for new members.

link

 

[Zara]

I don't mind the nature of most wiccans, though I must say I am against enchanting things.

 

[Feathers in Hair]

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion, Zara. Please feel free to introduce yourself over in the welcome section that Draka was kind enough to put a link to.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I liked that article. I might ask the author of that article if I can use it in one of the grimores I am writing.

 

[blb01]

I liked that article too. Now most of my friends might get off of my back, except for those who want me to believe in Jesus. But really, that article is very true. I used to be a Christian and I believed that exact stuff (well, I didn't know about the bible parts). Thank you for posting that.

 

[Malus 12:9]

I thought Wiccans hated all LaVeyans, and vice versa..

 

[Feathers in Hair]

I thought Wiccans hated all LaVeyans, and vice versa..

I can't speak for the LeVeyans, but Wiccans usually don't dislike anyone based on their spirtual path. If the person's path isn't causing them to act without respect for others, or themselves, I think more attention is paid then.

 

[Fluffy]

I thought Wiccans hated all LaVeyans, and vice versa..

I don't hate or dislike LaVeyans. I do find, however, that I am often not welcomed by them and find discourse with them difficult because their beliefs are so different to my own.

 

[James the Persian]

I was unsurprised to find the author was Orthodox. I belive that I have tried to make similar points on this forum also (though I perhaps wouldn't have gone quite as far in some of the language he uses). We do not believe that all non-Orthodox or even non-Christians will be damned and our Church Fathers spoke on the salvation of pre-Christian, pagan Greek philosophers. I don't see how their position vis a vis my God is any different to that of a good, modern neo-Pagan. It's safe to say that one big difference we have with some other Christians is in our understanding of 'No man comes to the Father except by me'. Many Christians see this as being equivalent to 'Follow me or be damned'. Whereas we see it as, 'Whoever comes to God has been drawn by Me, whether they know it or not.'

I hope my input here is appreciated. I'm staunchly Christian, as most of you no doubt know, but I see no benefit in villifying pagans and nor do I have the power or the right to damn anybody to hell. On the contrary, I am called to love all whether they agree with me or not. If only all Christians believed as we (generally speaking) do, you Wiccans might not have so many problems with Christians.

James

 

[Feathers in Hair]

Your input is always appreciated!

 

[michel]

I was unsurprised to find the author was Orthodox. I belive that I have tried to make similar points on this forum also (though I perhaps wouldn't have gone quite as far in some of the language he uses). We do not believe that all non-Orthodox or even non-Christians will be damned and our Church Fathers spoke on the salvation of pre-Christian, pagan Greek philosophers. I don't see how their position vis a vis my God is any different to that of a good, modern neo-Pagan. It's safe to say that one big difference we have with some other Christians is in our understanding of 'No man comes to the Father except by me'. Many Christians see this as being equivalent to 'Follow me or be damned'. Whereas we see it as, 'Whoever comes to God has been drawn by Me, whether they know it or not.'

I hope my input here is appreciated. I'm staunchly Christian, as most of you no doubt know, but I see no benefit in villifying pagans and nor do I have the power or the right to damn anybody to hell. On the contrary, I am called to love all whether they agree with me or not. If only all Christians believed as we (generally speaking) do, you Wiccans might not have so many problems with Christians.

James

I am not quite so 'staunchly' Christian as you James, but your message of "I am called to love all whether they agree with me or not" is the same driving force in my life.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I was unsurprised to find the author was Orthodox. I belive that I have tried to make similar points on this forum also (though I perhaps wouldn't have gone quite as far in some of the language he uses). We do not believe that all non-Orthodox or even non-Christians will be damned and our Church Fathers spoke on the salvation of pre-Christian, pagan Greek philosophers. I don't see how their position vis a vis my God is any different to that of a good, modern neo-Pagan. It's safe to say that one big difference we have with some other Christians is in our understanding of 'No man comes to the Father except by me'. Many Christians see this as being equivalent to 'Follow me or be damned'. Whereas we see it as, 'Whoever comes to God has been drawn by Me, whether they know it or not.'

I hope my input here is appreciated. I'm staunchly Christian, as most of you no doubt know, but I see no benefit in villifying pagans and nor do I have the power or the right to damn anybody to hell. On the contrary, I am called to love all whether they agree with me or not. If only all Christians believed as we (generally speaking) do, you Wiccans might not have so many problems with Christians.

James

I have heard No*s say, "We know where the Spirit is, but we do not know where he is not."

 

[James the Persian]

I have heard No*s say, "We know where the Spirit is, but we do not know where he is not."

This is quite right. We know that salvation can be found in the Church but we do not know that it cannot be found outside of Her. All, in our beliefs, were created in the image of God and are able to come to Him even outside of our faith, though we believe this route is more difficult. Obviously, then, Wiccans are not excluded. I'd also point out that we believe that more is expected of us because we have received more. It might well be, then, that it is harder for some Orthodox to attain salvation than it is for some outside our faith.

James

 

[Ciscokid]

C.S. Lewis stated something very similar in his very famous book Mere Christianity:

"There are people in other religions who are being led by God's secret influence to concentrate on those parts of their religion which are in agreement with Christianity, and who thus belong to Christ without knowing it. For example a Buddhist of good will may be led to concentrate more and more on the Buddhist teaching about mercy and to leave in the background (though he might still say he believed) the Buddhist teaching on certain points. Many of the good Pagans long before Christ's birth may have been in this position."

 

[James the Persian]

C.S. Lewis stated something very similar in his very famous book Mere Christianity:

This is no great surprise. The only way C.S. Lewis could have been much more Orthodox than he was would have been to get Chrismated. If anyone is an argument for the possibility of those outside the Church (from our perspective) to be able to come to the Truth then he is it.

James

 

[michel]

I must admit to being sad that there is so little tollerance in the world between all of us humans.


I personally have no truck with anyone's beliefs. If someone wants to believe in a "God of wheelbarrows", for example, then that it up to him or her. If someone wants to believe in Wicca, in Buddhism in anything that I do not believe in as long as it does no harm to anyone, then I see nothing 'wrong' in it, nor do I feel I have a right to have an opinion.

It saddens me when I hear a wiccan saying "Christians tell us we are all doomed to Hell" - at least I cvan take comfort in the fact that I can prodly say "I am not one of those".

 

[Evenstar]

I can't speak for the LeVeyans, but Wiccans usually don't dislike anyone based on their spirtual path. If the person's path isn't causing them to act without respect for others, or themselves, I think more attention is paid then.

Well said Feathers

 

[sanraal]

Different cultures and believes have different names for the Divine.

It is a shame that in the past, so many wars happened due to religion. It's all how man interprets the 'Word of the Gods'. Man uses and abuses scripture to control and manipulate others.
Also due to the fact that for example many Christians know a lot of Bible texts but not the heart of the message of love, they do not act towards it. They try to save everyone. Due to this there is much intolerance.

In the New Testament is said, God is all in all and God is love.

Our God of the Old Testament is masculine, justful and righteous but ruthless towards evil doers (somehow it has similarities with Cerunnous). God is also jealous and ruling.

The God of the New Testament is different. We see him in a more 'united' Way with the Spirit. The Holy Spirit that surrounds him is very gentle, loving and never forces. One of her manifestations (fruits) is wisdom. The Holy Spirit is the intuitive Spirit of God. Just like we have a Spirit, God also has one. Our Spirit sometimes already has noticed things or is active while our own bodies have not reacted. After all in Genesis, the Spirit of God was already moving over the waters before God himself even spoke.

The Divine has many aspects. In Paganism, the masculine God is the active decision maker while the feminine Goddess fulfills the active God with love (in perfect love and perfect trust we should follow and hear the words of the Goddess).
Just as we have a Spirit that is our 'higher self', God also has a Spirit, the Holy Spirit, that is his higher self. God's jealous and dominating side gets 'fulfilled' by this Spirit when it comes to decision making.

As long as the divine, the source of all life, runs through us it gives life. Important is to strive after the highest aspects of the divine, as Krishna also said, a path of love gives life and manifests in positive fruits such as respecting each other, helping a friend in need, forgiving each other, etc.

If people are not acting in a positive Way then either they have not understand their religion or they seek to manipulate others.
There are enough Bible texts that support the fact that anyone who does or strives towards Good from the heart, gains eternal life. It can be no other way since that would go against the forgiving nature of God.

Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. (1 John 4:7)

Loving others IS EQUAL TO knowing God

God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. (1 John 4:16)


If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. (1 Corinthians 13)
- Even if you have all the belief in God, all the faith that can move a mountain but not love, you are nothing. This means that God finds love more important than belief/ religion.

Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them. (Romans 2:12-15)

- Those who do the law of God without knowing God are a law unto themselves and are saved for works/ deeds are written in someone’s heart. You don’t have to know God’s law to be saved but when you are a good person from the heart, you follow the law automatically. In this way, for those who are good from the heart, it matters less what religion you have. Such people are a light by themselves

Any person who does good has eternal life.
Any person who does evil is open to negativity.
It works just like karma.
Chris