Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
I am having the following a conversation about Jesus with another member.
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A civilized dissussion: Christianity and paganism
- Thread starter Unveiled Artist
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Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Thank you. I see Jesus as a man inspired by the Divine (lack of better words; not abrahamic God). He has a calling as do we all to call people to His faith in His Father. I have always had respect for Jesus as friend as I believe spirits exist after our passing. When I was a practicing Catholic I felt praying to Jesus aas an insult to His Father. I prayed to the Father instead.
I dont believe Jesus is God. This is not Catholic teaching; one of a few reasons I dont take Eucharist.
I never believed Jesus saved me. That is illogical. I inpersonated myself In Him instead. I dont like using people; so, I stopped. I feel much better and sinfree because I separated myself from being sin or someone inherited to sinful behavior. That is very damaging to my spiritual health. I feel christians can follow Jesus without puting their sins on Him.
I have no grudges on Jesus. He is a human and I dont pray to humans. I offer my blessings and honor just as my ancestors. I dont know Jesus personally to honor Him as I do my family.
Reply from original thread
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I have to admit that I'm Heathen, however I'll be as unbiased as I can.
How I understand some theories on the development of Christianity starts in Israel with the Pagan Canaanites. There were four notable deities, being El, ruling God of the sky resembling Egyptian Ra, Asherah, fertility goddess and his wife resembling Egyptian Isis or Persian Astarte, Yahweh, war God resembling the wrathful Greek Ares, and Baal, storm God similar to Nordic Thor.
Abraham calls his God "El" or "El elyon", and later his "Elohim" which in the context of the time might be most appropriately translated as "patron God (of a pantheon)" suggesting Abraham was Pagan, honoring many deifies but giving one special attention in exchange for special treatment, as the Athenians were to Athena.
Later there was tension between the temple to Yahweh and the one to Baal. To emphasize Yahweh's status they syncretized him and chieftain El, and competed against Baal's priests. They only were successful by depicting El-Yahweh as a universally powerful God, who was jealous of others.
Full blown monotheism isn't established until Isaiah with "besides me there is no God". Before "God" or "The Lord" refers to an "us" and implies the existence of other divinities, making scholars thing Abrahamic Spirituality was henotheistic, monotheistic to one deity but vaguely agnostic to others.
The Hebrews (coming from Canaanites) were captured by Babylon and Babylonian creation influenced Abrahamic lore, particularly with creation and the Leviathan.
Satan wasn't evil in the lore until much later. "Lucifer" wasn't included in the book until after Roman adoption of Christianity. The story originally is talking about the fall of a mythical king, not an angel.
Satan was interpreted as an evil character in the New Testament at least. Later Christians would liken him to animal-like trickster gods like Pan, Cernunnos, Apophis and Loki. From Loki comes deceptiveness while Pan and Cernunnos give Satan a depiction of wearing hornes or bearing cloven feat. Apophis was the inspiration for the aspects of Satan being a) the serpent of Eden and b) the dragon of revelation.
Jesus was born at a vague time AD. He lead a cultural rebellion against Rome, attempting to make himself king by claiming royal blood from metaphorically or literally descending from Yahweh, as Caesar claimed do with Venus or Ragnar Lothbrok with Odin. "Son of God" was a title having nothing to do with divine genes, but everything to do with the right to be king of a land. Because he wanted to usher in The Israelite Kingdom (aka kicking Rome out), he was committing treason and was punished like all Roman trators and political rebels, through crucifixion. The Jewish Aristocracy only notified Rome of Jesus' movement, so Rome killed him, not the Jews.
The Prophecy of a Messiah of the Jews was understood to be written about someone to establish the Jewish kingdom, independent of Rome.
He was crucified for his political agenda but something unknown happened to compel his followers to think his message was spiritual and not political. This something is often assumed to be the alleged rebirth of Jesus.
Christianity's spirituality started resembling Buddhism and Mystic Judaism. In converting the local pagans of Greece and Egypt, Jesus as a dying God was given stories of native dying God archetypes like Horus and Osiris in Egypt (Osiris died and rose again and was called "King of kings, lord of lords" in the Egyptian book of the dead while Horus, born of virgin Isis Meri/Mary, performed weather miracles like calming storms and walking on water) Dionysus in Greece (died and rose, virgin born, miraculous with wine even turning it out from water, born in a cave or stable, started as mortal but rose into Olympianhood) Mithra in Iran and Rome (born of a virgin, called "the light/truth" worshipped on Sunday) Woden in Germany (died on a tree for the sake of humankind and arose again) etc. this suggests a syncretic attitude early Christians had with paganism, meaning they looked at Pagan mythic characters as being related to, maybe as different forms of, their familiar biblical ones, called "Interpretatio Christiana".
After Christianity was made official roman religion, Rome's colonialist attitude was intensified. The Christian Rome sought the conversion of Germanic and Celtic Europe first.
Already the winter solstice was a celebration from Saturnalia, but celebrating Christ rather than Saturn. The same day was called "Yule" or "Jol" to the Vikings, Goths and Anglo Saxons.
After a genocide on Germanic Royalty, destroying allegedly Odinic, Ingvic, Thorish and other bloodlines, England was easy to subdue into Christian power. Missionaries went into there (pre-conversion) as well as Scandinavia, Germany and the minor Celtic Ireland.
From the Heathens we get Christmas symbology, being Santa Claus, Holly, Evergreen Trees and Gold (from Odin, Mistletoe, Pine and Baldr) and the same with Easter, being eggs, rabbits and spring colors from Goddess Eostre's symbolism as well as Halloween from Celtic Samhain and Heathen Autumnal Festivals (whence comes the association with death, ghosts, demons and magic), called "All Hallows' Day" on Nov 1st, the day before being "All Hallow's Eve" shortened to "Halloween".
The story of Adam, Eve, a tree and a serpent bears suspicious similarity between the Viking world tree and world serpent, especially in the myth of Ragnarok which has a lot of parallels with Revelation:
Jesus-Baldr
Fenrir- the antichrist
Loki/ Surt- Satan/ the dragon
Jormungandr- The Beast
Both also have worldwide chaos by fire, trumpet blowing, darkening of the sun and an ending involving two giants or humans hiding in the tree, implying the ending of Norse Pagam Lore is the beginning of Biblical Scripture.
The Flood Archetypal myth is also repeating in Paganisms, most notably Greek, Egyptian, Middke Eastern and Scandinavian Polytheisms, involving a global flood and two or a few people to repopulate the human species.
The Mediterranean Biblical God was depicted similarly to Jupiter and Zeus, being interpreted as a just, celestial father even carrying the sky-ish and lightning-ish symbolism like the chief European sky God.
The New Christians believed very quickly the lies of the church. Recently pagan Saxons wrote Beowulf, a hero who fights a demon, his mother, a lake of serpents and a dragon, all understood as representing Heathens and Heathenism.
The word for "pagan" used by Christians has changed. Having first arrived in Greece, and the only interactions with paganism having been indigenously Hellenic, the word for "Greek" (Hellenes) was used to describes polytheists. Later in Rome, with it spreading there, the religion had been popularized in urban areas, and the country folk (called "paganī") were left unchecked to follow the older pagan ways. The word for "country dweller" came to mean instead "polytheist",carrying over to English as the word "Pagan".
The Cross comes from a pagan solar symbol of the sun wheel or sun cross. It has variances that look like what we would recognize as swatzikas, crosses and eight armed star like crosses.
"Heathen" is just and English translation of the word.
Hellás- Greece- adj Hellen
Pagus- countryside- adj pagānus- pagan
Hæthe- Eng. Heath- adj hæthen- Heathen
The shifts in this pagan meaning suggests Christians mostly interacted with polytheists firstly as Greek Polytheists, then Roman rustic folk, then as Anglo Saxon Heath folk.
The words "Heathen" and "pagan" then were more popular to use to describe any polytheist like the Vikings and Druids.
As Europeans came in America and Africa, the natives' ways (West African Voodoon and Native American shamanisms) syncretized with Catholicism turning into ideologies hailing saints or spirits who serve a great deity (Yoruba "God" or "Voodoo" and Native American "Creator", "Great Spirit" or "Sky Being").
Paganism is commonly ancestral, so the new converts had a preference to honor the characters from Biblical Mythology as their ancestors, making the depictions of say Abraham, Moses or Jesus as ethnically similar to the dominant race of the worshippers in Christian art.
To Sum it up, Canaanite Paganism combined the sky God and war God to become a monotheistic divinity of the Middle East. Yeshua ("Joshua" or Jesus) seemed to want to fulfill the prophecy of Israel's political liberation, and later was interpreted as an avatar of the monotheistic God. Pagan ideas and symbols from Babylon, Egypt, Greece, Rome and Germanic Europe influenced European based Christianity while West African animism influenced Voodoo, Santeria and the like, lastly Native American shamanic practice influenced Christian movements of the Cherokee, Comandchee, etc nations.
I don't think that the similarities between Christianity and Pagan Polytheisms need to necessarily devalue anything. Christianity is going to have to change tho with these parallels being more well known, but only has to change but not be considered less authentic.
Everything cultural, linguistic and spiritual came from something else. Heathenry, my own community, honors spirits and gods with the Germanic Culture in mind, evolved from a much more ancient Northern European religion with very different names, symbols, values and stories, which came from a much older European-mother culture that too was quite different on the surface. This worldview probably was also just a reinterpretation of an older polytheistic worldview.
I think to satisfy the intellectuality of the religious, the mindset of loose and abstract mythological interpretations and culturally liberal approaches are going to be the future of western spirituality, accepting that religion is metaphorical, subjective and pertains to the spirit and morality, but outside of that it has little practical application.
(I'm using my culture because I know it best) Heathens would tell you that although the lore says the Sun is Sol, a giantess, running away from a sky wolf around the earth or that Odin is a one eyed sage with a flying horse, that doesn't mean we need to accept this literally and become geocentric and looking up for Sleipnir. I'll tell you some are applicable very well in meditation and cultural matters, but have little use in literal interpretation. Although the lore says creation was consisted of a mythic giant who battled with Odin and whose body was used to made the world, I don't think this is scientifically relevant and I accept theories like evolution and cosmological Big Bang as valid.
So Christians I feel should accept their ideologies pagan roots, heritage and past, and, if they so chose, interpret the biblical scriptures with note of cultural biases at the time and the same people's scientific ignorance, leaving the interpretations abstract and strictly spiritual. I see these characteristics not only in Paganisms but Liberal Christian Movements and the Unitarian Universalist Movement.
How I understand some theories on the development of Christianity starts in Israel with the Pagan Canaanites. There were four notable deities, being El, ruling God of the sky resembling Egyptian Ra, Asherah, fertility goddess and his wife resembling Egyptian Isis or Persian Astarte, Yahweh, war God resembling the wrathful Greek Ares, and Baal, storm God similar to Nordic Thor.
Abraham calls his God "El" or "El elyon", and later his "Elohim" which in the context of the time might be most appropriately translated as "patron God (of a pantheon)" suggesting Abraham was Pagan, honoring many deifies but giving one special attention in exchange for special treatment, as the Athenians were to Athena.
Later there was tension between the temple to Yahweh and the one to Baal. To emphasize Yahweh's status they syncretized him and chieftain El, and competed against Baal's priests. They only were successful by depicting El-Yahweh as a universally powerful God, who was jealous of others.
Full blown monotheism isn't established until Isaiah with "besides me there is no God". Before "God" or "The Lord" refers to an "us" and implies the existence of other divinities, making scholars thing Abrahamic Spirituality was henotheistic, monotheistic to one deity but vaguely agnostic to others.
The Hebrews (coming from Canaanites) were captured by Babylon and Babylonian creation influenced Abrahamic lore, particularly with creation and the Leviathan.
Satan wasn't evil in the lore until much later. "Lucifer" wasn't included in the book until after Roman adoption of Christianity. The story originally is talking about the fall of a mythical king, not an angel.
Satan was interpreted as an evil character in the New Testament at least. Later Christians would liken him to animal-like trickster gods like Pan, Cernunnos, Apophis and Loki. From Loki comes deceptiveness while Pan and Cernunnos give Satan a depiction of wearing hornes or bearing cloven feat. Apophis was the inspiration for the aspects of Satan being a) the serpent of Eden and b) the dragon of revelation.
Jesus was born at a vague time AD. He lead a cultural rebellion against Rome, attempting to make himself king by claiming royal blood from metaphorically or literally descending from Yahweh, as Caesar claimed do with Venus or Ragnar Lothbrok with Odin. "Son of God" was a title having nothing to do with divine genes, but everything to do with the right to be king of a land. Because he wanted to usher in The Israelite Kingdom (aka kicking Rome out), he was committing treason and was punished like all Roman trators and political rebels, through crucifixion. The Jewish Aristocracy only notified Rome of Jesus' movement, so Rome killed him, not the Jews.
The Prophecy of a Messiah of the Jews was understood to be written about someone to establish the Jewish kingdom, independent of Rome.
He was crucified for his political agenda but something unknown happened to compel his followers to think his message was spiritual and not political. This something is often assumed to be the alleged rebirth of Jesus.
Christianity's spirituality started resembling Buddhism and Mystic Judaism. In converting the local pagans of Greece and Egypt, Jesus as a dying God was given stories of native dying God archetypes like Horus and Osiris in Egypt (Osiris died and rose again and was called "King of kings, lord of lords" in the Egyptian book of the dead while Horus, born of virgin Isis Meri/Mary, performed weather miracles like calming storms and walking on water) Dionysus in Greece (died and rose, virgin born, miraculous with wine even turning it out from water, born in a cave or stable, started as mortal but rose into Olympianhood) Mithra in Iran and Rome (born of a virgin, called "the light/truth" worshipped on Sunday) Woden in Germany (died on a tree for the sake of humankind and arose again) etc. this suggests a syncretic attitude early Christians had with paganism, meaning they looked at Pagan mythic characters as being related to, maybe as different forms of, their familiar biblical ones, called "Interpretatio Christiana".
After Christianity was made official roman religion, Rome's colonialist attitude was intensified. The Christian Rome sought the conversion of Germanic and Celtic Europe first.
Already the winter solstice was a celebration from Saturnalia, but celebrating Christ rather than Saturn. The same day was called "Yule" or "Jol" to the Vikings, Goths and Anglo Saxons.
After a genocide on Germanic Royalty, destroying allegedly Odinic, Ingvic, Thorish and other bloodlines, England was easy to subdue into Christian power. Missionaries went into there (pre-conversion) as well as Scandinavia, Germany and the minor Celtic Ireland.
From the Heathens we get Christmas symbology, being Santa Claus, Holly, Evergreen Trees and Gold (from Odin, Mistletoe, Pine and Baldr) and the same with Easter, being eggs, rabbits and spring colors from Goddess Eostre's symbolism as well as Halloween from Celtic Samhain and Heathen Autumnal Festivals (whence comes the association with death, ghosts, demons and magic), called "All Hallows' Day" on Nov 1st, the day before being "All Hallow's Eve" shortened to "Halloween".
The story of Adam, Eve, a tree and a serpent bears suspicious similarity between the Viking world tree and world serpent, especially in the myth of Ragnarok which has a lot of parallels with Revelation:
Jesus-Baldr
Fenrir- the antichrist
Loki/ Surt- Satan/ the dragon
Jormungandr- The Beast
Both also have worldwide chaos by fire, trumpet blowing, darkening of the sun and an ending involving two giants or humans hiding in the tree, implying the ending of Norse Pagam Lore is the beginning of Biblical Scripture.
The Flood Archetypal myth is also repeating in Paganisms, most notably Greek, Egyptian, Middke Eastern and Scandinavian Polytheisms, involving a global flood and two or a few people to repopulate the human species.
The Mediterranean Biblical God was depicted similarly to Jupiter and Zeus, being interpreted as a just, celestial father even carrying the sky-ish and lightning-ish symbolism like the chief European sky God.
The New Christians believed very quickly the lies of the church. Recently pagan Saxons wrote Beowulf, a hero who fights a demon, his mother, a lake of serpents and a dragon, all understood as representing Heathens and Heathenism.
The word for "pagan" used by Christians has changed. Having first arrived in Greece, and the only interactions with paganism having been indigenously Hellenic, the word for "Greek" (Hellenes) was used to describes polytheists. Later in Rome, with it spreading there, the religion had been popularized in urban areas, and the country folk (called "paganī") were left unchecked to follow the older pagan ways. The word for "country dweller" came to mean instead "polytheist",carrying over to English as the word "Pagan".
The Cross comes from a pagan solar symbol of the sun wheel or sun cross. It has variances that look like what we would recognize as swatzikas, crosses and eight armed star like crosses.
"Heathen" is just and English translation of the word.
Hellás- Greece- adj Hellen
Pagus- countryside- adj pagānus- pagan
Hæthe- Eng. Heath- adj hæthen- Heathen
The shifts in this pagan meaning suggests Christians mostly interacted with polytheists firstly as Greek Polytheists, then Roman rustic folk, then as Anglo Saxon Heath folk.
The words "Heathen" and "pagan" then were more popular to use to describe any polytheist like the Vikings and Druids.
As Europeans came in America and Africa, the natives' ways (West African Voodoon and Native American shamanisms) syncretized with Catholicism turning into ideologies hailing saints or spirits who serve a great deity (Yoruba "God" or "Voodoo" and Native American "Creator", "Great Spirit" or "Sky Being").
Paganism is commonly ancestral, so the new converts had a preference to honor the characters from Biblical Mythology as their ancestors, making the depictions of say Abraham, Moses or Jesus as ethnically similar to the dominant race of the worshippers in Christian art.
To Sum it up, Canaanite Paganism combined the sky God and war God to become a monotheistic divinity of the Middle East. Yeshua ("Joshua" or Jesus) seemed to want to fulfill the prophecy of Israel's political liberation, and later was interpreted as an avatar of the monotheistic God. Pagan ideas and symbols from Babylon, Egypt, Greece, Rome and Germanic Europe influenced European based Christianity while West African animism influenced Voodoo, Santeria and the like, lastly Native American shamanic practice influenced Christian movements of the Cherokee, Comandchee, etc nations.
I don't think that the similarities between Christianity and Pagan Polytheisms need to necessarily devalue anything. Christianity is going to have to change tho with these parallels being more well known, but only has to change but not be considered less authentic.
Everything cultural, linguistic and spiritual came from something else. Heathenry, my own community, honors spirits and gods with the Germanic Culture in mind, evolved from a much more ancient Northern European religion with very different names, symbols, values and stories, which came from a much older European-mother culture that too was quite different on the surface. This worldview probably was also just a reinterpretation of an older polytheistic worldview.
I think to satisfy the intellectuality of the religious, the mindset of loose and abstract mythological interpretations and culturally liberal approaches are going to be the future of western spirituality, accepting that religion is metaphorical, subjective and pertains to the spirit and morality, but outside of that it has little practical application.
(I'm using my culture because I know it best) Heathens would tell you that although the lore says the Sun is Sol, a giantess, running away from a sky wolf around the earth or that Odin is a one eyed sage with a flying horse, that doesn't mean we need to accept this literally and become geocentric and looking up for Sleipnir. I'll tell you some are applicable very well in meditation and cultural matters, but have little use in literal interpretation. Although the lore says creation was consisted of a mythic giant who battled with Odin and whose body was used to made the world, I don't think this is scientifically relevant and I accept theories like evolution and cosmological Big Bang as valid.
So Christians I feel should accept their ideologies pagan roots, heritage and past, and, if they so chose, interpret the biblical scriptures with note of cultural biases at the time and the same people's scientific ignorance, leaving the interpretations abstract and strictly spiritual. I see these characteristics not only in Paganisms but Liberal Christian Movements and the Unitarian Universalist Movement.
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Yoshua
Well-Known Member
Hi Carlita,
To understand my message clearly, I enumerated your statement one by one:
A. Jesus as a man inspired by the Divine (lack of better worda; not abrahamic God)-by Carlita
Yes, Jesus is an incarnated man, inspired by the divine. I believe that the Abrahamic God you’re talking about is our Father God. Jesus Christ is not the Abrahamic God. He is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
B. When I was a practicing Catholic I felt praying to Jesus as an insult to His Father. I prayed to the Father instead-by Carlita
Jesus exactly taught us the pattern of prayer.
Matthew 6:5-13
5. "And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward.
6. "But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly.
7. "But when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.
8. "Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him.
9. "In this manner, therefore, pray: Our Father in heaven, hallowed be Your name.
10. Your kingdom come. Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
11. Give us this day our daily bread.
12. And forgive us our debts, As we forgive our debtors.
13. And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one. for Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.
In v.5, it says that we should not be like the hypocrites. Jesus is referring to the teachers of the law—the Pharisees. They like to be seen by the Jews to portray that they are holy and spiritual teachers. In regards to prayer in v.6, Jesus said that it is better to pray inside the room in secret, for God looks at the heart of a person, and not to display holiness in front of other people. Jesus addressed this directly to the Pharisees.
In v.7, Jesus said that repetition of prayer is not commendable to God, because God knows what we need before we pray.
In our prayer (v.9), we start with “Our Father”, Jesus is acknowledging and calling our God, Father. Then, worship in “Hallowed be thy name”; establishment of God’s kingdom and His will on earth in v.10. We pray for our needs, confession of our sins (v.12). Pray for our protection and deliverance from the evil one (v.13). Then in ending, give him the glory, (In the name of Jesus)Amen.
We used the name of Jesus in the last utterance of prayer before Amen because His name is above all names, for no other name that is given by the Father for us to be saved.
Phil. 2:9-11
9. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name,
10. that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,
11. and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
But at times when you would like to call on Jesus, it is not a problem. But in praying, this is the pattern that Jesus taught us.
C. I dont believe Jesus is God. This is not Catholic teaching; one of a few reasons I dont take Eucharist by Carlita.
The Roman Catholic believes Jesus is God. The Eucharist (biblical way) is not the Roman Catholic’s understanding—as the real body and blood of Christ. This is a commemoration or remembrance of Christ’s suffering with his blood to save our sins.
When a Christian participated in the Lord’s Supper, he remembered on how Jesus Christ died on the cross and resurrected for the redemption of our sins.
Luke 22:19-20
19. And He took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.''
20. Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.
D. I never believed Jesus saved me. That is illogical. I inpersonated myself In Him instead. I dont like using people; so, I stopped. I feel much better and sinfree because I separated myself from being sin or someone inherited to sinful behavior. That is very damaging to my spiritual health. I feel christians can follow Jesus without puting their sins on Him- by Carlita
John 3:16
16. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
Heb. 9:28
28. so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
Rom. 10:9
9. that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Jesus laid down His life for our salvation. We are not a sin free people, we can’t hide our sins. We are all born sinners, there’s no one who is perfect and righteous in the sight of God. A Christian is guided by the Holy Spirit so he may move on to his righteous walk, if not, he may also keep sinning.
E. I have no grudges on Jesus. He is a human and I dont pray to humans.
Jesus is God and human. He is an incarnated human to accomplish God’s purpose of saving us from our sins, and gave us hope to be with Him in eternity.
Thanks
JayJayDee
Avid JW Bible Student
If Jesus said he was sent by his Father, what do you believe was the purpose in God sending him? Why did he tell his disciples that he had to die and that he was going to prepare a place for them in heaven?
So you believe that Jesus had a calling to bring people to his faith? What faith did Jesus follow?
Is the Jewish faith into which he was born the same faith that he promoted to his disciples? If so, where do you see the Jews in this picture then?
Is your belief in spirits something you picked up in your Catholic faith?
I am pleased to see that you came to understand the position of the Father in relation to Jesus. He always directed worship and prayer to his Father "alone" (Luke 4:8)
Jesus never once said he was God. But I am confused....the trinity is a purely Catholic teaching. It did not exist until Roman Catholicism adopted it and made it doctrine in the 4th century. Taking the Eucharist is also a Catholic practice.
And yet Jesus came for that very purpose. This is what the NT scriptures teach. But what did Jesus come to save us from...that is the question?
Again, Jesus came to give his life for Adam's children. Why is it damaging to your spiritual health to have Jesus metaphorically take a bullet for you? He said it was a demonstration of his love. It was a demonstration of God's love too. (John 15:13; John 3:16)
Why would anyone have grudges on Jesus?
There is nothing in the Bible that tells us to pray TO Jesus...it tells us to pray to the Father, THROUGH Jesus. (John 14:6, 3, 14)
What blessing and honor did your ancestors give to Jesus? Are you speaking ethnically? Or just generally?
You can get to know Jesus by the things recorded in the NT. In fact we get a wonderful picture of his personality. He reflects the personality of his Father perfectly. That makes them both very appealing rulers over us.
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Yoshua
Well-Known Member
Hi Jay,
Nice meeting you. Just to sneak in.
Thomas witnessed that He is God.
John 20:28
28. Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"
29. Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed."
Matt. 1:23
23. "Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and shall bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel," which translated means, "God with us."
Trinitarian doctrine has a basis and evidently seen in the Holy Scriptures.
Thanks
As an agnostic, I'll try to respond likewise.
Actually you would be better concentrating on Ugaritic deities, and as we have no attestation for Thor until long after YHWH, and indeed basically the oldest Germanic extant texts are translations from the Bible into Gothic, comparisons are a priori problematic an untenable once one relies on evidence rather than either Jungian nonsense or Frazer-type outdated historical methods.
"Athena" wasn't a singular entity. It is standard for classicists and similar scholars to adfix a particular city or similar "community" to Athena's name to designate the Athena represented in that locale in that time.
Fully agree. In fact, the need for the texts to contain such an assertion suggest that other gods were believed in.
Hebrews didn't come from Canaanites.
It's absolutely true that the translation "Lucifer" wasn't a translation of "Satan". It was a translation of a "morning star"-like deity in Hebrew that was translated into the Greek equivalent of Lucifer in the LXX and the Latin "Light-bearer" in the Vulgate.
The word in Hebrew means "adversary" and was identified as an evil entity before Jesus (although after most of the texts from the old testament).
Nothing we know of most "trickster gods" exists independent of Christianized pagan deities, and Pan wasn't a trickster deity.
I personally tend to agree that part of his rebellion was cultural (to the extent this has meaning in antiquity). However, it is also true that many scholars do not regard him as rebelling at all (or at least not in the sense generally thought). Also, many scholars would say "political rebellion" was a more appropriate description.
Jesus lived in a part of the Roman empire that had minimal Roman rule (at least directly). Rome cared about movement in Judaism in Judaea mainly because of Jewish aristocratic movements like the Maccabean revolt. Jewish unrest meant a breach of the pax romana, and only if Jesus had incited Jewish aristocracy would the Roman-sanctioned rulers like Pilate have cared.
I agree.
All of this is either completely false or grossly inaccurate.
LONG after Constantine...
JayJayDee
Avid JW Bible Student
Hello Yoshua, nice to meet you too.
Sneak in any time you like. Thomas was actually expressing doubt, not doctrine.
The context helps us to draw the right conclusion from Thomas' words. Shortly before Jesus’ death, Thomas had heard Jesus’ prayer in which he addressed his Father as “the only true God.” (John 17:3, RS) After Jesus’ resurrection Jesus had sent a message to his apostles, including Thomas, in which he had said: “I am ascending . . . to my God and your God.” (John 20:17, RS) After recording what Thomas said when he actually saw and touched the resurrected Christ, the apostle John stated: “These are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.” (John 20:31, RS) So, if anyone has concluded from Thomas’ exclamation that Jesus is himself “the only true God” or that Jesus is a Trinitarian “God the Son,” he needs to look again at what Jesus himself said (vs. 17) and at the conclusion that is clearly stated by the apostle John (vs. 31).
Was Jesus called Immanuel? Or was this name an indication that God was with the one he sent as his representative...his Logos?
As you know, Jeʹsus [Lat. form of the Gr. I·e·sousʹ, which corresponds to the Heb. Ye·shuʹaʽ or Yehoh·shuʹaʽ ] means “Jehovah Is Salvation”. Salvation is from God, through Jesus.
I have seen that there is a trinity inferred by reading it into certain texts, but I have not seen one direct statement by either God or his Christ that they are equal and eternal members of a triune godhead. Surely for such an important doctrine (the very foundation of the church) you would expect to see it directly stated....wouldn't you?
John 1:1 has been discussed extensively on these forums and it is not proof that Jesus is Almighty God. Calling Jesus "theos" (god) is no more identifying him as the the Almighty than calling the devil "theos", in 2 Cor 4:3, 4. It simply means a "mighty one" or one who is in a position of power and authority over others. It is a title, not a name used exclusively for the Father.
Before the trinity was made doctrine by the RCC in the 4th century, there was no trinity in church teaching. The Jews never believed that God was a trinity. (Deut 6:4) Jesus was Jewish, so he never taught it.
In fact Jesus Christ calls his Father "the only true God" and refers to himself as the "one he sent forth". (John 17:3)
If Jesus was God you would expect to see it clearly stated in scripture....but it is not stated at all. The idea has been forced into certain texts.
Jesus is a divine God-like being, second only in power and position to his God and Father, but he is only called "the son of God" never is he called "God the Son". There is not one mention of "God the Holy Spirit" either. The church invented those terms to prop up its introduced doctrine.
Jesus refers to his Father as "my God" four times in Rev 3:12. This is after he returned to heaven. So, unless you believe that God can have a God, it doesn't really make much sense.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
We disagree on a lot of things, no because its against christian faith but against what I know is fact.
We all have a clean and pure nature covered in muck. Our pure nature calls us to be one with our family. It calls us to love our mates as they love us. It calls us to devotion to loving and/or to our given faiths. There is no sin in spirituality.
Jesus is not God. He has God's nature but because He is human, He is not God. God is not human. He is an entity, in abrahamic faith, and spirit of love and justice. He has no flesh that makes what christians call sin, that makea him inherited with sin like us. There are specific things God the Father has/dont have: No flesh. All knowing. All powerful. Entity.
Jesus does not have that:
He is flesh which automatically makes him not God.
He is not all knowing. (Will get scripture later)
He is not all powerful
He is not an entity.
He is a spirit just as we and when He died He went to Hid Father siting at His right hand not has the Father. Christians are not God but are spirits. They will be resurrected "just as Christ". Jesus is not special.
C.
I do believe the Eucharist is Jesus Christ. The priest Does say "do This in memory of me." The bread/wind does not magicly look and act like Jesus. Food was very important way to commune. They communue with food all through the Bible even Acts.
When Jesus said This is my body/blood He did not mean Hr will.magically physically become bread/winr. Through communion we come together in Christ. The food Jesus blessed brings people together as one Church. This the Catholoc teaching in their CCC. This is what I had experience. This is in all Masses.
Symbolism just means something is what doesnt look like. It does not mean what it does not look is spiritually somehow symbolic. It doesnt speak in spiritual terms.
For example, Jesus dying on the cross physically saves no one today. It is symbolic in that the action of Him dying represented the concept or message of His Father. They are not each other AND they are. That is the Eucharist concept. Except for Jesus is already crucified. The Holy Spirit makes the communion blessed so that everyone may share in His flesh and blood (meaning life). Its not magic. Its not special. Its highly cultural and it is in scripture.
D. We disagree. Not because it is not a christian teaching. Christians have many teachings they cant agree on. We sin yes and we are not inherited with sin. We are sinners because we sin, yes and that is not our true naturs.
A priest told me once: "christians keep focusing on Jesus crucifiction. (Sin sin sin). They keep forgorting about His resurrection." Seeing myself as a sinner damages my spiritual health. It is not true as I have seen the true of people of who they are not what they have done immorally.
God the Father was the God of Abraham (who is the same God of "abraham" in either abrahamic faiths.) Jesus was not the God of Abraham. He was decendant from David. He was also supposed "Last Adam." He was a Savior, a Lord (as are many; context), and Child of God. He has a pecfect relationship with the Father making them one in their purpose. They are not each other (this Jesus divinity has been replayed here many times. I side with JW. Their study of the Bibe related to Jesus divinity is excellent)
We do not have a sinful or currupted nature inherited in us. We are not born to sin. The word sin, or breaking our beliefs, only applies when we know the rules first and break them. If there were no rules, there is no such thing as sin.
We all have a clean and pure nature covered in muck. Our pure nature calls us to be one with our family. It calls us to love our mates as they love us. It calls us to devotion to loving and/or to our given faiths. There is no sin in spirituality.
Jesus is not God. He has God's nature but because He is human, He is not God. God is not human. He is an entity, in abrahamic faith, and spirit of love and justice. He has no flesh that makes what christians call sin, that makea him inherited with sin like us. There are specific things God the Father has/dont have: No flesh. All knowing. All powerful. Entity.
Jesus does not have that:
He is flesh which automatically makes him not God.
He is not all knowing. (Will get scripture later)
He is not all powerful
He is not an entity.
He is a spirit just as we and when He died He went to Hid Father siting at His right hand not has the Father. Christians are not God but are spirits. They will be resurrected "just as Christ". Jesus is not special.
C.
I do believe the Eucharist is Jesus Christ. The priest Does say "do This in memory of me." The bread/wind does not magicly look and act like Jesus. Food was very important way to commune. They communue with food all through the Bible even Acts.
When Jesus said This is my body/blood He did not mean Hr will.magically physically become bread/winr. Through communion we come together in Christ. The food Jesus blessed brings people together as one Church. This the Catholoc teaching in their CCC. This is what I had experience. This is in all Masses.
Symbolism just means something is what doesnt look like. It does not mean what it does not look is spiritually somehow symbolic. It doesnt speak in spiritual terms.
For example, Jesus dying on the cross physically saves no one today. It is symbolic in that the action of Him dying represented the concept or message of His Father. They are not each other AND they are. That is the Eucharist concept. Except for Jesus is already crucified. The Holy Spirit makes the communion blessed so that everyone may share in His flesh and blood (meaning life). Its not magic. Its not special. Its highly cultural and it is in scripture.
D. We disagree. Not because it is not a christian teaching. Christians have many teachings they cant agree on. We sin yes and we are not inherited with sin. We are sinners because we sin, yes and that is not our true naturs.
A priest told me once: "christians keep focusing on Jesus crucifiction. (Sin sin sin). They keep forgorting about His resurrection." Seeing myself as a sinner damages my spiritual health. It is not true as I have seen the true of people of who they are not what they have done immorally.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
We disagree on a lot of things. It is not because its not in the bible. I agree with a lot of your studies of scripture. It is not my personal belief. It is not a fact in my worldview. As such:
In scripture, you are correct that doesnt exclude my personal disbelief in saving me. He did not. Thats the christian teaching. Christianity does not apply to everyone else.
Sure He did. Its in scripture. Why not?
Personally, I do not know what you mean. Scripturally,, I am not versed to give an intellectual reply.
No. My family always believed spirits of the deceased in our homes and family members exist and some watch over us. Catholicism just geared it towards believing Christ spirit is in the believer. Scripture does say Christ is in all believers. Your def. of spirit may be diff. than what Catholics teach compared to my view.
I phrased it wrong. I dont take the Eucharist because I dong believe Jesus is God. Thats one of the reasons I left the Church (meaning I dont take the sacraments)
Scripturaly? Sin.
My true nature is not sin. It is not meant to sin. It has no reason to sin. It does not need to be saved. I am not sin. I do some things against my faith. However, what I do does not always reflect who I am.
When Christians sin, they project it on themselves hence needing salvation. To project bad things I do on myself to need someone to safe me is depressing. I live a bettee life knowing who I am is pure. I do stupid things and I dont need anyone to clean up my mess "by dying."
I-- do not. Cant speak for others.
I know. One reason why I do not. Another reason I left the Church.
The ancestors (all both recently deceased on back) gave me foundation for living. In simple terms, if they did not exist I would not. My grandma has helped me by communicating with my fam more. Spirits I believe have saved me a lot of times from being hit by cars and spirits have yanged me from being hit since I walk a lot. I always feel someone is giving me hints when coinsedences happen a lot. I value sycronicity and it doesnt need to be something extravagent to be a blessing.
Both. Ethnically, my family believes our fam is watching over us. We dont offer things but we hold charms and talk to them and most commonly recently deceased.
Like losing a friend because od severe disagreement. I dont believe you can just "not" be friends id the friendship broke naturally and in a healthy manner.
In scripture, you are correct that doesnt exclude my personal disbelief in saving me. He did not. Thats the christian teaching. Christianity does not apply to everyone else.
Sure He did. Its in scripture. Why not?
Personally, I do not know what you mean. Scripturally,, I am not versed to give an intellectual reply.
No. My family always believed spirits of the deceased in our homes and family members exist and some watch over us. Catholicism just geared it towards believing Christ spirit is in the believer. Scripture does say Christ is in all believers. Your def. of spirit may be diff. than what Catholics teach compared to my view.
I phrased it wrong. I dont take the Eucharist because I dong believe Jesus is God. Thats one of the reasons I left the Church (meaning I dont take the sacraments)
Me personally? Since I dont have a need to be saved, I have no clue. Each person is different.
Scripturaly? Sin.
My true nature is not sin. It is not meant to sin. It has no reason to sin. It does not need to be saved. I am not sin. I do some things against my faith. However, what I do does not always reflect who I am.
When Christians sin, they project it on themselves hence needing salvation. To project bad things I do on myself to need someone to safe me is depressing. I live a bettee life knowing who I am is pure. I do stupid things and I dont need anyone to clean up my mess "by dying."
I-- do not. Cant speak for others.
I know. One reason why I do not. Another reason I left the Church.
What blessing and honor did your ancestors give to Jesus? Are you speaking ethnically? Or just generally?
The ancestors (all both recently deceased on back) gave me foundation for living. In simple terms, if they did not exist I would not. My grandma has helped me by communicating with my fam more. Spirits I believe have saved me a lot of times from being hit by cars and spirits have yanged me from being hit since I walk a lot. I always feel someone is giving me hints when coinsedences happen a lot. I value sycronicity and it doesnt need to be something extravagent to be a blessing.
Both. Ethnically, my family believes our fam is watching over us. We dont offer things but we hold charms and talk to them and most commonly recently deceased.
You can get to know Jesus by the things recorded in the NT. In fact we get a wonderful picture of his personality. He reflects the personality of his Father perfectly. That makes them both very appealing rulers over us.
I have no desire to know Jesus in a personal way. I did through the sacraments and realized what I know is not true about christianity.
Like losing a friend because od severe disagreement. I dont believe you can just "not" be friends id the friendship broke naturally and in a healthy manner.
Yoshua
Well-Known Member
Hi Jay,Hello Yoshua, nice to meet you too.
Thomas was actually expressing doubt, not doctrine.
The context helps us to draw the right conclusion from Thomas' words. Shortly before Jesus’ death, Thomas had heard Jesus’ prayer in which he addressed his Father as “the only true God.” (John 17:3, RS) After Jesus’ resurrection Jesus had sent a message to his apostles, including Thomas, in which he had said: “I am ascending . . . to my God and your God.” (John 20:17, RS) After recording what Thomas said when he actually saw and touched the resurrected Christ, the apostle John stated: “These are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.” (John 20:31, RS) So, if anyone has concluded from Thomas’ exclamation that Jesus is himself “the only true God” or that Jesus is a Trinitarian “God the Son,” he needs to look again at what Jesus himself said (vs. 17) and at the conclusion that is clearly stated by the apostle John (vs. 31).
The right context can surely help us to draw the right conclusion if John 17:3 mentioned Thomas presence. Take a look at this scriptures.
1. WHEN JESUS had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven and said, "Father, the hour has come; glorify thy Son that the Son may glorify thee,
2. since thou hast given him power over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom thou hast given him.
3. And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.
4. I glorified thee on earth, having accomplished the work which thou gavest me to do;
5. and now, Father, glorify thou me in thy own presence with the glory which I had with thee before the world was made.
6. "I have manifested thy name to the men whom thou gavest me out of the world; thine they were, and thou gavest them to me, and they have kept thy word.
John 20:17
18. Mary Magdalene went and said to the disciples, "I have seen the Lord"; and she told them that he had said these things to her.
19. On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, "Peace be with you."
20. When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord.
21. Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you."
22. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.
23. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."
24. Now Thomas, one of the twelve, called the Twin, was not with them when Jesus came.
25. So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord." But he said to them, "Unless I see in his hands the print of the nails, and place my finger in the mark of the nails, and place my hand in his side, I will not believe."
26. Eight days later, his disciples were again in the house, and Thomas was with them. The doors were shut, but Jesus came and stood among them, and said, "Peace be with you."
27. Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side; do not be faithless, but believing."
28. Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!"
29. Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe."
The sequence (day & time) of the context is taken into consideration. Mary Magdalene announced to the Disciples that she has seen the Lord (Thomas was not with them). The next scene has a gap between Mary’s announcement and the first day of the week from v.19. They saw Jesus in gladness and not in shocking nature. Jesus (even) had time to speak with them. Thomas is not with them during the appearance of Jesus (v.21-23). The time that Thomas heard about Jesus is when the other disciples told him (v.25). After eight days, Thomas was with the other disciples, and confessed.
"My Lord and my God!" (in the original text format, the Lord of me and the God of me).
The validity of evidence in regard to Jesus deity came from the affirmation of Jesus "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe." Jesus never refuted nor corrected Thomas confession, but affirmed and accepted it. In consideration with their practice in utterance of a deity is punishable by stoning to death (John 10:33), therefore the uttered word of Thomas is a verbal risk which he should be discreet to do it.
John 10:33
33. The Jews answered him, "It is not for a good work that we stone you but for blasphemy; because you, being a man, make yourself God."
Thomas is expressing doubt from the other disciples word "We have seen the Lord."
Matt.1:23
23. "Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emmanu-el" (which means, God with us). RS
The name refers to Jesus, the name Emmanuel means God with us. It is Jesus who was conceive and not concerning with the Father God.
Trinitarian doctrine pertains to the deity of Christ, the existence of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. This is a long discussion, and I’m prepared for the discussions, but I just need to inquire first on this forum on how I may started to do this.
Thanks
JayJayDee
Avid JW Bible Student
@Yoshua.....the trinity has been debated to death on these forums. Please read the many threads. I doubt you could raise a single issue about the trinity that has not already been hammered into the ground.
It's a case of believe it or not...I don't. I do not believe that you can make a doctrine out of inference. If we had a clear statement that Jesus is in fact Almighty God, then we might have something to discuss......so no point really. It's just rehashing.
It's a case of believe it or not...I don't. I do not believe that you can make a doctrine out of inference. If we had a clear statement that Jesus is in fact Almighty God, then we might have something to discuss......so no point really. It's just rehashing.
Yoshua
Well-Known Member
I agree with your statement. This is in line with how the Father God sent His Son Jesus Christ to give save us from our sins. Yes, they are one in purpose as what the will of the Father is the will of the Son. What makes excellent with the JW about Jesus divinity?
Rom. 3:9-15
9. What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
10. as it is written,
"There is none righteous, not even one;
11. There is none who understands,
12. All have turned aside, together they have become useless;
13. "Their throat is an open grave,
14. "Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness";
15. "Their feet are swift to shed blood,
I have not seen a human being who is born, a perfect, holy, without sin, and righteous throughout his life. If there is, I will believe you. There is one, He is Jesus, but I’m not referring to Jesus.
Jesus was incarnated by means of the Spirit of God to conceive as a human. This is the purpose of sending His Son, Jesus.
John 3:16
16. "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.
You may God is not human, but we should take into consideration why Jesus came here and what is the plan of Father God. Did you have any idea about this?
Phil. 2:5-11
5. Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
6. who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7. but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
8. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
9. Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
10. that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth,
11. and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
In nature, Jesus is God. To be able to take the position of being a human, He did not regard to be equal with the Father God, but emptied (lowered) Himself, take the form of a servant, like men. He is in the form of God and in the form of a servant. To be in the form of God is not to regard His equality with God; to be in the form of a servant is to be emptied Himself to become like one of us. This is the incarnation.
So, do you mean that you believe Jesus died on the cross to save us from sins?
Disagreement does not necessarily mean that they cannot be the true teaching of Christ. People are human with different will and likeness. If we are not inherited with sin, then what do you think the reason why the Father sent Jesus for us?
Thanks
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Youre welcome. Here are more of my thoughts on this. I'll write the difference in what I know scripture teaches (sorry i am not bible literate. I trust that christians opinion is based on the bible. Scripture verses shouldnt be used to proove falsehood of a non christians statement unless they are debating not conversating.)
People are born morally perfect. Once they have a rule, say dont tough fire, and they do, that is when they disobeyed or sinned.
I whole heartily because this because I know I can be sinless all day. I know that my illness is not Who I am and it is a part of What I am. That is perfection; its living what you have naturally. Its not changing into angels or no pain. Its not magic. Its how we see things; our perspectives that make us perfect and it goes beyond what you see.
Jesus is spirit and flesh. He is a part of God as so as All Christians. He is only special in that He has a perfect relation-ship (more than one person) with His Father. Christians are trying to mirror what they call perfection in Christ. This is scripture.
My view, no one is incarnate as pefect as defined by abrahamics. The Buddha says thaf everything is in a persistent change. Nivabana is not heaven but that mark when we know we have suffering, know the cause of it, know how to get out of, and follow the eightfold path to achieve this goal.
There is no outer salvation. If I am drowining, I do not have Jesus to pull me up. He is not here anymore to do so. How are people claiming they are saved when Jesus cannot pull the up? Did they fly? Anyone can believe and have faith and it will give one hope but that hope does nor save you. Thats why the Buddha tought salvation is in ourselves. We use street smarts and learn how to swim if we can. It is hard and the Buddha did it so it is possible.
I believe in the Buddhas reachings. I am not a Buddhist since I am not initiated in a sect.
That is confusing. To be God's "Son"; His chosen one of all other prophets, He has to be One with the Father. Not as an entity (He is not the Father) but in nature. Jesus speaks repeatly that He is doing the works of His Father nor Himself.
That does not mean Jesus cant save. It just means people who believe Jesus is God misinterpet the nature of Christ. It doesnt change a thing.
No. Salvation is physical not just spiritual. It is body and mind. His teachings may let you learn salvation but you cant read while you are drowning. His message may give you hope internally but that cannot save you physically.
I do not see how Christ can save anyone. When I practiced Catholicism, what brought me to that faith aas Galations 2:20: "I have been crucified In Christ. I live is no longer, I, but to Christ who lives in me. Insofar, I live not for myself but for the son of God." (By memory)
Jesus also said cary your cross. He does not carry for you.
He says you are saves by Your faith in His Father in the name of Himself. His faith in His Father is not yours.
According to scripture and Jewish teaching we inherit the nature "to" sin. We are not born sinners. Hence the concept of accountability theory. I do believe if we are born sinners, babies who die will go to hell. Since salvation is for those who believe, if one is born a sinner they will have No desire for salvation. However,
one is born with temptation (like Christ) and we fall into it, we can ask for salvation. We (christians) already know their true nature in God they need Christ to make the bond.
Inherited sin exuded.
You may not agree with their study, but read or watch some of thre JW posts. I mean, I can repeat each point but they back it with scripture. Its real nice. (Nice to agree to someone even though I disagree with their faith)
People are born morally perfect. Once they have a rule, say dont tough fire, and they do, that is when they disobeyed or sinned.
I whole heartily because this because I know I can be sinless all day. I know that my illness is not Who I am and it is a part of What I am. That is perfection; its living what you have naturally. Its not changing into angels or no pain. Its not magic. Its how we see things; our perspectives that make us perfect and it goes beyond what you see.
Jesus is spirit and flesh. He is a part of God as so as All Christians. He is only special in that He has a perfect relation-ship (more than one person) with His Father. Christians are trying to mirror what they call perfection in Christ. This is scripture.
My view, no one is incarnate as pefect as defined by abrahamics. The Buddha says thaf everything is in a persistent change. Nivabana is not heaven but that mark when we know we have suffering, know the cause of it, know how to get out of, and follow the eightfold path to achieve this goal.
There is no outer salvation. If I am drowining, I do not have Jesus to pull me up. He is not here anymore to do so. How are people claiming they are saved when Jesus cannot pull the up? Did they fly? Anyone can believe and have faith and it will give one hope but that hope does nor save you. Thats why the Buddha tought salvation is in ourselves. We use street smarts and learn how to swim if we can. It is hard and the Buddha did it so it is possible.
I believe in the Buddhas reachings. I am not a Buddhist since I am not initiated in a sect.
That is confusing. To be God's "Son"; His chosen one of all other prophets, He has to be One with the Father. Not as an entity (He is not the Father) but in nature. Jesus speaks repeatly that He is doing the works of His Father nor Himself.
That does not mean Jesus cant save. It just means people who believe Jesus is God misinterpet the nature of Christ. It doesnt change a thing.
No. Salvation is physical not just spiritual. It is body and mind. His teachings may let you learn salvation but you cant read while you are drowning. His message may give you hope internally but that cannot save you physically.
I do not see how Christ can save anyone. When I practiced Catholicism, what brought me to that faith aas Galations 2:20: "I have been crucified In Christ. I live is no longer, I, but to Christ who lives in me. Insofar, I live not for myself but for the son of God." (By memory)
Jesus also said cary your cross. He does not carry for you.
He says you are saves by Your faith in His Father in the name of Himself. His faith in His Father is not yours.
According to scripture and Jewish teaching we inherit the nature "to" sin. We are not born sinners. Hence the concept of accountability theory. I do believe if we are born sinners, babies who die will go to hell. Since salvation is for those who believe, if one is born a sinner they will have No desire for salvation. However,
one is born with temptation (like Christ) and we fall into it, we can ask for salvation. We (christians) already know their true nature in God they need Christ to make the bond.
Inherited sin exuded.
Yoshua
Well-Known Member
Hi Carlita,
Thanks for being transparent, so I can adjust and make my answer in different approach. Before this, I would like to ask you if you believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God, and the writings about Jesus is true?
Ok. Yes, I may not agree with their study because I already studied their doctrines, history, prophecies and their scriptural supports. May I request those JW's post message that you think is excellent?
I don’t think so because if people are born morally perfect, why did God gave the ten commandments? the great flood who wiped all the wicked people in Noah’s time; the wickedness of people (gays, lesbians) at Sodom and Gomorrah; Canaanites’ sin (Lev.18:25; Deut. 7:3-5)?
The illness or sickness of a person proves that we are physically weak in nature. We are not born a superhuman or superman. A human resides in a body that will rot to the dust. Therefore, anything that we bring inside our body will be discreetly monitored. We eat healthy food, we gain a healthy body. We meditate/lived on God’s word, we gain peace, love and salvation.
Have you ever wondered why small kid needs to be nurtured and disciplined by his parents in his early years? I believe this is because people are born imperfect.
I respect Buddha on how he sees the sufferings of a person (as human being). Some of his principles are practically good for humanistic aspect only. My parents believed in Buddha. I believe in Buddhism before in my childhood and high school days. I used to accompany my grandmother to a Buddhist temple and enjoyed praying with incense. It is a complete turn around when I find Jesus and totally change my life in love and peace.
The striking differences between Buddha and Jesus are the following:
1. Buddha concentrated on freeing oneself from sufferings; Jesus goal is to love & trust God with full dependency to Him. In other words, Buddha – dependent on oneself; Jesus – dependent and trust in Jesus.
2. Buddha’s salvation is through reincarnation, past life has connection in what you will become; Jesus salvation was offered by having a relationship with him to have eternal life, whatever/whoever you are.
There are so many biblical verses pertaining to the promises that guaranteed that God truly saves:
Matt. 11:28-30
28. "Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.
29. "Take My yoke upon you, and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart; and you shall find rest for your souls.
30. "For My yoke is easy, and My load is light."
Ps. 46:1
1. God is our refuge and strength, A very present help in trouble.
Isaiah 41:13
13. "For I am the Lord your God, who upholds your right hand, Who says to you, `Do not fear, I will help you.
Prov.3:5-6
5. Trust in the Lord with all your heart,
And do not lean on your own understanding.
6. In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He will make your paths straight.
I believe faith in God can save; we all live by faith, when we eat and drink, sit down and walk; go to somewhere……I believe Jesus can pull up a person who is drowning. Much more than a drowning person, He already said it “Come to me to those who are weary and heavy laden.” I believe Jesus experienced how to lived as a human being, He fully understand our pain and sufferings.
Yes, they are one with the Father; one in their mission and nature. Jesus is not the Father God, but their nature is the same in divinity. The human nature was only added to Jesus to accomplish the will of the Father God by saving us from our sins.
How salvation— is a physical thing?
Do you believe that our life (here) is only temporary? What I mean is—there is a destination after a person passed away.
Gal. 2:19-20
19. "For through the Law I died to the Law, that I might live to God.
20. "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered Himself up for me.
This is a good memory verse; I used to sing that beautiful song “No longer I, No longer I who lives, No longer I who lives in me. It is Christ who lives in me.” Jesus Christ does’nt change His promise.
Luke 9:23-27
23. And He was saying to them all, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me.
24. "For whoever wishes to save his life shall lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake, he is the one who will save it.
25. "For what is a man profited if he gains the whole world, and loses or forfeits himself?
26. "For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, of him will the Son of Man be ashamed when He comes in His glory, and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.
27. "But I say to you truthfully, there are some of those standing here who shall not taste death until they see the kingdom of God.
This is a discipleship principle of following Christ. Denying oneself is consciously to reject one’s own will in favor of doing God’s will. That’s exactly what I’m talking about in compared with Buddhism. Carrying one’s own cross is following the will of God, and walking in righteousness in accordance to God’s will. Jesus expound it in v.25, why carrying our cross, because we may gain the whole world—what we want is what we do—will have a consequence to lose His soul to eternal life. Matt. 16:26. "For what will a man be profited, if he gains the whole world, and forfeits his soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? This means we will lose the new person that we might become in Christ if the life is not submitted or surrendered to Christ. The will of God is perfect, good and acceptable and not for our harm.
Rom. 12:2 “And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.”
I believe that God is fair and just. Babies naturally did not reach the age of accountability. I don’t think babies goes to hell. Once a person reach the age of accountability—knowing what is sinful (right or wrong), he is already accountable for what he has done. The more a person sins, the more salvation is getting nearer to him. This is logical in principle, if no salvation being offered, that would mean there is sin. people are not born sinners, why we have a lot of insecurities, fear, anxiety, helpless..…….?
Who will hold you from temptations? Physical body cannot help you then. A spiritual counselor such as the Holy Spirit promised by Jesus Christ can supernaturally shut that temptation.
Christ was tempted by satan because He is in the physical flesh, and that flesh is the cause why we are accessible to that influence and attack by the worldly offers.
Thanks
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
I will answer directly from my beliefs as a pagan. I have Buddhist beliefs because they make sense. Christianity seems like putting icing on a cake. Its not the cake. People mistake thst it is. I like simplicity and free spirites faith. Here are my comments:
I do not believe in the Abrahamic God. I believe everything is God. There is no entity; life is God. (Using God for convo. medium)
As such, in my view, no. God cannot be contained in a book. Many people have experienced God (whole life) and the writings express this. The writings themselves are not inspired by God.
The people are, then and today. Time difference doesnt matter.
I dont believe God as an entity nor do I believe He, a part from us, can "give" anything.
Its lile Zen. Our minds are empty or pure natured at birth. The only "sins" babies can commit are maybe hitting each or taking each others toys. The parents, not the child, give them morals. Their morals can be good or bad (healthy or not) and That affects the child not a sinful nature.
The only commandment I can think of that dont apply to everyone is love God only. Not everyone shares belief in God. It is illogical to talk as if they do or should.
I hate the Sadoom and Gamorrah reference. The theme was not homosexulity. It was sexual impurity and rape.
I am a homosexual and many of us who are intimate with our wives or husbanda are not raping and are not commiting sexual impurity based on lust (outside of marriage). God's view on homosexuals makes me ill to my stomach. In nature (my faith;pagan), we humans hearts are not divined by gender.
Our love does not turn rotten because of our sex; thats rediculous. Our physical bodies express the inner love we have for our spouses. Gender only plays a role if they want to naturally procreate. Not every person, straight or gay, wants to have children.
Its a terrible belief to define someone by lust and by gender.
No. Perfection is being who you are at birth. So, I was born with epilepsy. I am perfect in how I was meant to be born. I cannot change myself to be fully healthy. Children need direction not discipline. Perfection doesnt mean you know what to do. It means you are who you are.
We nees to accept perfection and stop trying to change ourselves to be someone we are not.
I believe faith in ourselves with the support of our natural/holistic environment, our loved ones, and strangers save us. No deity is involved in a family on earth. This is our home. Why do we keep looking up? "Accept" life on life's terms=thats perfection of the mind.
It is all from the mind.
Salvation is spiritual: because we are born again, we set our lives on the path of Christ. The results confirm our salvation in our hearts.
Salvation is physical: We not only "think" about our muritiy in Christ. We dont just meditate on His teachings, we "follow" Christ. Carrying your own cross is not an analogy. We carry our burdens. Communion is not symbolic. We eat with Christ and share in His divinity through His body/blood=food which is (Christ) life. We help others. "What you have done for others you have done for me"
Salvation incorporates thee trinity of who a human is...their mind, body, and spirit.
Jesus rose physically; so do christians.
Physival and spiritual go together. When I pray, I have different postrations. Each mean something in themselves. I dont need to attach anything spiritual because those acts ARE spiritual.
So, by following specific physic actions (prayers) during the day keeps me spiritually intune. It is using my body to express my heart. Likewise when two people consumate their marriage. It is not just the spirit and mind. It is the body too.
Thank you.
I do not believe in the Abrahamic God. I believe everything is God. There is no entity; life is God. (Using God for convo. medium)
As such, in my view, no. God cannot be contained in a book. Many people have experienced God (whole life) and the writings express this. The writings themselves are not inspired by God.
The people are, then and today. Time difference doesnt matter.
It will take awhile. They have a JW DIR section as well if you want to read their topics. Ill get back on this.
I dont believe God as an entity nor do I believe He, a part from us, can "give" anything.
Its lile Zen. Our minds are empty or pure natured at birth. The only "sins" babies can commit are maybe hitting each or taking each others toys. The parents, not the child, give them morals. Their morals can be good or bad (healthy or not) and That affects the child not a sinful nature.
The only commandment I can think of that dont apply to everyone is love God only. Not everyone shares belief in God. It is illogical to talk as if they do or should.
I hate the Sadoom and Gamorrah reference. The theme was not homosexulity. It was sexual impurity and rape.
I am a homosexual and many of us who are intimate with our wives or husbanda are not raping and are not commiting sexual impurity based on lust (outside of marriage). God's view on homosexuals makes me ill to my stomach. In nature (my faith;pagan), we humans hearts are not divined by gender.
Our love does not turn rotten because of our sex; thats rediculous. Our physical bodies express the inner love we have for our spouses. Gender only plays a role if they want to naturally procreate. Not every person, straight or gay, wants to have children.
Its a terrible belief to define someone by lust and by gender.
No. Perfection is being who you are at birth. So, I was born with epilepsy. I am perfect in how I was meant to be born. I cannot change myself to be fully healthy. Children need direction not discipline. Perfection doesnt mean you know what to do. It means you are who you are.
We nees to accept perfection and stop trying to change ourselves to be someone we are not.
I believe faith in ourselves with the support of our natural/holistic environment, our loved ones, and strangers save us. No deity is involved in a family on earth. This is our home. Why do we keep looking up? "Accept" life on life's terms=thats perfection of the mind.
It is all from the mind.
Salvation is mental: When we die in Christ, our marturity in Chrisr changes/born again sonthat we are right with the Father
Salvation is spiritual: because we are born again, we set our lives on the path of Christ. The results confirm our salvation in our hearts.
Salvation is physical: We not only "think" about our muritiy in Christ. We dont just meditate on His teachings, we "follow" Christ. Carrying your own cross is not an analogy. We carry our burdens. Communion is not symbolic. We eat with Christ and share in His divinity through His body/blood=food which is (Christ) life. We help others. "What you have done for others you have done for me"
Salvation incorporates thee trinity of who a human is...their mind, body, and spirit.
Jesus rose physically; so do christians.
Physival and spiritual go together. When I pray, I have different postrations. Each mean something in themselves. I dont need to attach anything spiritual because those acts ARE spiritual.
So, by following specific physic actions (prayers) during the day keeps me spiritually intune. It is using my body to express my heart. Likewise when two people consumate their marriage. It is not just the spirit and mind. It is the body too.
Yoshua
Well-Known Member
Oh. Do you think that there is a Creator who designed the universe, planet, solar system and the vastness of the space, how the planet was in place and revolving around?
That is in someway that God cannot be contained in the book. But from my experience, this book served as the spiritual guidance and personal reference for Christian spiritual growth. The Bible is considered as the consistent holy book as this is already scrutinized and verified as non-contradictory book by the experts.
There are a lot of witnesses and facts that proves the Bible as the inspired Word of God.
In the Bible it says that God is spirit and we must worship Him in spirit and truth. If there is no God here in this world, then there would be no morals. People can kill each other as much as he could; there are no rules and justice. Then if God is everything, there is no higher entity that has authority.
I'm sorry for that.
Yes, I agree with you.
You say that salvation is born again, do you mean that you believe that being a born again in spirit as renewing oneself by accepting and having a relationship with Christ?
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
I dont believe on a Creator. Nothing can disapear and something can (edit) cant be created from nothing. Thats the law of physics. The law of nature. Spirituality exists a part from our beliefs...it is fact. How we put morals to these facts determine if we see God in the clouds forming a person in the sky or just two clouds put together in an "image" we attribute to whst we are accostumed to.
Yes, it does inspired people. No, not all nonchristians belittle the Bible. I feel thats just some christians making the bible more than it is by using thr "bad guy" to reflect how perfect "they" feel it is.
No. There a lot of witnesses that prove the Claim people are inspired.
For example,
You are inspired by God just as Peter, just as Jesus. You write what God inspired you to write in a book. 3,000 years latter, Joe Smoe finds your book. He researches your history, and conclude, ah ha! what SHE says is true. So it must be true to me and it must be true to all people.
Yet, he does not know you. He just knows a claim. He doesnt know your history, he know what he studied. Its an insult to you for him to base his life on your life when he doesnt know you. Its a on him, how he wants to feel. How you inspired him.
God IS everything. We all have a Buddhanature, a sinless nature, for lack of better words, that has been piled on by dirt in This life.
As a child, I am sure hitler didnt plan his sceme. He had some influencr "later" in life.
Likewise, I didnt know that I cannot love someone of my own gender, according to christians. It was not a rule; love is NOT a rule to be regulated based on gender until christians and other faiths defined it so.
If we didnt need to find our purpose, we see no use in thinking of a creator.
Laws of physics
No. Just claims that it is (above)
@Yoshua I forgot to answer...
Yes. Being born again is not a belief but a vow to change your life by admitting you sin, accepting you will die to those sins (carry your cross), and live a life in a bond with Christ (relationship with Him) to complete this goal in order to reunite with God (resurrected to the Father) with new bodies in heaven.
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Yoshua
Well-Known Member
Hi Carlita,
There is one thing that I think people are born, a sinful nature. We don't teach a child to disobey, Isn't it? Now, if we did not direct him in right things, he will continue to live in disobedience. I've never seen children that was born obedient and perfect. Haven't.
For me, Buddha seen the sufferings of a person and depend on itself to be free from sufferings. But still, sufferings exist. If there is suffering, then there is also peace.
Thanks
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
They only disobey when we set rules in how children is supposed to act. Without our "rules" children do not sin. They are being children.
Yes. The Buddha came down to our level (rather than wanting us to His as Jesus did) to help us help ourselves from suffering. He reached the point of nibana (peaceful state) where he "accepted" not cured that there is suffering. He said there is a cause (which is our ego creates by the outside world not inherit in ourselves as sinful nature). He then said there is an ens to suffering ane continued with saying how (the eight fold path)
He is not God. He knew that we will reach nivabana. In therevada sect, they feel by practice they will reach the rifht state of mind. I believe in mahayana who speaks that the Buddha is within us. The clean nature is within us. When we hear the Buddha's Law, it shines. He is also here (as I believe in spirits) to hear the Law when it is preached.
The Buddha within us is wisdom and peace that gives clear state of mind. Many Buddhas (people of perfect wisdom) still go through suffering. The difference between them and us is they accept it and Live witth it. The Path is devotion and practice, not just belief. Prayers Are the postrations not intent and postrations added.
Buddhism is about the Mind. Im Nam Myoho Renge Kyo, the summary of the Law, He says that we are to devote ourselves to the mystic Law which is that things will happen (cause) and the consequrences or benefits (affects) will come from it.
It is great that Buddha, actually I should say the Lord Buddha as so is His refered title, is not a God nor a savior of the human race. The definition of what He calls salvation is in ourselves.
It is interesting that the Lord Buddha never told us the final Law. He gave us idea but never indtructions. It comes from us.
The Lord Buddha's disciples could not comprehend why our Lord did not give them the answers (in the Lotus Sutra). We comprehend. The Lord Buddha predicted we will try to look outside of ourselves for answers and He is ie right. He would when He sees us. He would say "why are you looking elsewhere for answers? Everything you have out of suffering comes from you." He believed in no Salvational God (He did believe gods existed but thats different than believing In them). He rejected them when reaching enlightenment.
The POINT is why do each of us look outside ourselves for answers? Following the Lord Buddha means getting in touch with your true nature by means of practice and Living not just believing in it.ï
It is hard but I do believe in the supernatural. I see no reason to depend on it as if being supernatural it has some more importance than this life. I was not taught that and I dont believe that.
I am confussed and shocked that others do.
Thanks for reading this.
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