A concern I have with churches…

[an anarchist]

I have a concern with (run of the mill American Christian) churches - the Sunday school teachers may not be properly vetted, if vetted at all. It is up to the church to vet who they place in charge of the children.

I was a Sunday school teacher from 14-19. What the heck! What a terrible idea! My zealousness for Christ and familiarity with the Bible made me no way prepared to take on the task of teaching 30 children aged 4-11. I think the church was grooming me to be a pastor. I was an extremely mentally ill individual too who was not yet diagnosed or treated. And this friggin church had me in a teaching position to children. The parents were not involved. The parents just put the kids on the church bus and saw it as a free daycare service.

Don’t public education teachers get vetted in some form? Because they are in a position of authority over vulnerable children. Churches have no requirement to vet who deals with the children at all. I often regret my past dealings with the children. The children loved me, cause I was a “good cop” and let them be as wild as they wanted. What a madhouse those 6 years of teaching was.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I have a concern with (run of the mill American Christian) churches - the Sunday school teachers may not be properly vetted, if vetted at all. It is up to the church to vet who they place in charge of the children.

I was a Sunday school teacher from 14-19. What the heck! What a terrible idea! My zealousness for Christ and familiarity with the Bible made me no way prepared to take on the task of teaching 30 children aged 4-11. I think the church was grooming me to be a pastor. I was an extremely mentally ill individual too who was not yet diagnosed or treated. And this friggin church had me in a teaching position to children. The parents were not involved. The parents just put the kids on the church bus and saw it as a free daycare service.

Don’t public education teachers get vetted in some form? Because they are in a position of authority over vulnerable children. Churches have no requirement to vet who deals with the children at all. I often regret my past dealings with the children. The children loved me, cause I was a “good cop” and let them be as wild as they wanted. What a madhouse those 6 years of teaching was.

I'm not familiar with the policies of different protestant denominations, but I do know that in Catholic churches, the volunteers who teach the kids have a background check done, and are required to attend a class in how to spot abuse and report it.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I'm not familiar with the policies of different protestant denominations, but I do know that in Catholic churches, the volunteers who teach the kids have a background check done, and are required to attend a class in how to spot abuse and report it.

It depends upon how long the church has been operating. There are quite a few ad hoc churches which go through growing pains that could be avoided with experience. No matter what the denomination if it has experienced people in it there are a lot of benefits.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Vetted by whom? The church? A government entity?

I stand firmly agains the government being involved in any church vetting process. They don't even do that with church leadership.

That said, I do think it's the responsibility of the church to have some sort of vetting process.

Moreover, it's the responsibility of the parent to vet the church and any if its teaching programs before enrolling their child.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

It depends upon how long the church has been operating. There are quite a few ad hoc churches which go through growing pains that could be avoided with experience. No matter what the denomination if it has experienced people in it there are a lot of benefits.

You really have to check with an actual catholic, but I do recall that every single last worker in or for a catholic parish in the US, both hired and volunteer, has the background check done and has to complete the class. Even people who have worked there a long time still had to go through this training. This was the new policy put into place by the US council of catholic bishops in response to the sex scandal. But again, I could be wrong, so ask Metis or someone.

 

[Brickjectivity]

You really have to check with an actual catholic, but I do recall that every single last worker in or for a catholic parish in the US, both hired and volunteer, has the background check done and has to complete the class. Even people who have worked there a long time still had to go through this training. This was the new policy put into place by the US council of catholic bishops in response to the sex scandal. But again, I could be wrong, so ask Metis or someone.

I did not mean to refer to catholic ones but the other ones like an anarchist is talking about. It depends upon how long the church has been functioning and how experienced the people are. I don't know about catholic churches. I suppose they could be similar in that respect, since experience is experience; but I think they function differently.

 

[PureX]

I have a concern with (run of the mill American Christian) churches - the Sunday school teachers may not be properly vetted, if vetted at all. It is up to the church to vet who they place in charge of the children.

I was a Sunday school teacher from 14-19. What the heck! What a terrible idea! My zealousness for Christ and familiarity with the Bible made me no way prepared to take on the task of teaching 30 children aged 4-11. I think the church was grooming me to be a pastor. I was an extremely mentally ill individual too who was not yet diagnosed or treated. And this friggin church had me in a teaching position to children. The parents were not involved. The parents just put the kids on the church bus and saw it as a free daycare service.

Don’t public education teachers get vetted in some form? Because they are in a position of authority over vulnerable children. Churches have no requirement to vet who deals with the children at all. I often regret my past dealings with the children. The children loved me, cause I was a “good cop” and let them be as wild as they wanted. What a madhouse those 6 years of teaching was.

This is a very good point. And a very bad practice in a lot of churches.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I have a concern with (run of the mill American Christian) churches

I'm unfamiliar with that denomination.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You really have to check with an actual catholic, but I do recall that every single last worker in or for a catholic parish in the US, both hired and volunteer, has the background check done and has to complete the class. Even people who have worked there a long time still had to go through this training. This was the new policy put into place by the US council of catholic bishops in response to the sex scandal. But again, I could be wrong, so ask Metis or someone.

Things vary within the Catholic Church, too.

My ex's church was physically within the limits of the Archdiocese of Toronto and looked to any casual passerby like a regular parish church, but it was run by a religious order (the Basilian Fathers) and therefore wasn't under the authority of the local archbishop.

I looked into the Archdiocese's youth protection policies at the time and thought they were generally good, but didn't find out later until I learned more of the nuances of the Catholic Church's organizational structure that the church I was attending was completely exempt from those policies.

Even later, I found out that the church was actually harboring a predator priest who had assaulted kids over several decades. This would likely have been completely unacceptable under the Archdiocese's rules, but they weren't under the Archdiocese's rules.

 

[Spice]

From my experience in has a great deal to do with whether or not a church is independent or in an association.

I have a friend who has been a Sunday School teacher for decades, currently adults, but due to her denomination can only "teach" women and must stick with the association lesson plans and materials.

My childhood church was associated when I was there, but the assignments and materials were not mandatory, only suggested guidelines. The teachers were volunteers and approved by the church deacons. It is currently independent and even the minister is now only vetted by the deacon board and Congregational vote.

Both of these examples are small, rural churches, so perhaps that keeps things safer? No. A couple of years ago my friends small, rural associated church's minister committed suicide because one of his youth group little boys went home and told what his preacher tried to do.

It takes everyone, with parents in the lead, to watch over the children even/especially with leaders.

 

[metis]

I'm not familiar with the policies of different protestant denominations, but I do know that in Catholic churches, the volunteers who teach the kids have a background check done, and are required to attend a class in how to spot abuse and report it.

Absolutely correct as I had to go through one.

 

[Kathryn]

You really have to check with an actual catholic, but I do recall that every single last worker in or for a catholic parish in the US, both hired and volunteer, has the background check done and has to complete the class. Even people who have worked there a long time still had to go through this training. This was the new policy put into place by the US council of catholic bishops in response to the sex scandal. But again, I could be wrong, so ask Metis or someone.

Every single Catholic church I've belonged to has had this in place for all volunteers and paid positions as well, for everyone old or new.

 

[Viker]

I have a concern with (run of the mill American Christian) churches - the Sunday school teachers may not be properly vetted, if vetted at all. It is up to the church to vet who they place in charge of the children.

I was a Sunday school teacher from 14-19. What the heck! What a terrible idea! My zealousness for Christ and familiarity with the Bible made me no way prepared to take on the task of teaching 30 children aged 4-11. I think the church was grooming me to be a pastor. I was an extremely mentally ill individual too who was not yet diagnosed or treated. And this friggin church had me in a teaching position to children. The parents were not involved. The parents just put the kids on the church bus and saw it as a free daycare service.

Don’t public education teachers get vetted in some form? Because they are in a position of authority over vulnerable children. Churches have no requirement to vet who deals with the children at all. I often regret my past dealings with the children. The children loved me, cause I was a “good cop” and let them be as wild as they wanted. What a madhouse those 6 years of teaching was.

You were a Sunday school teacher. You were there to indoctrinate not illuminate little children. As long as you go by a churches doctrine I don't think they care about anything else. I also see this as one of the failings of Sunday school. It doesn't work. You were actually more like an unpaid babysitter, with a dash of indoctrination to dole out.

 

[Kathryn]

We do have a "crying room" but most of the time, the kids stay with the parents in my church.

 

[Eddi]

At my church the Sunday school teachers have to be vetted

Any past sexual offenses would come up when the church did the vetting with whatever government agency does vetting as well as any "unspent" non sexual offences

For a while I was going to train to be a lay preacher and that required vetting

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Things vary within the Catholic Church, too.

My ex's church was physically within the limits of the Archdiocese of Toronto

That may be the core of the difference in our understanding. Here all the churches answer to the US conference of Catholic bishops (USCCB). I'm sure the Archdiocese of Toronto is governed by whatever organization of bishops three is in Canada. The two may have entirely different sets of rules.

and looked to any casual passerby like a regular parish church, but it was run by a religious order (the Basilian Fathers) and therefore wasn't under the authority of the local archbishop.

Interesting.

I looked into the Archdiocese's youth protection policies at the time and thought they were generally good, but didn't find out later until I learned more of the nuances of the Catholic Church's organizational structure that the church I was attending was completely exempt from those policies.

Wow! SMH

Even later, I found out that the church was actually harboring a predator priest who had assaulted kids over several decades. This would likely have been completely unacceptable under the Archdiocese's rules, but they weren't under the Archdiocese's rules.

This was pretty rampant for a long long time. My own research indicates it is not a "Catholic problem" but an "Institutional problem" in general. Any institution that discovers a scandal in its midst does what it can to keep it silent.

Not only have other religious groups, such as Synagogues, Protestant denominations, and Mosques covered up sexual abuse, but so have non-religious institutions like the Boy Scouts, Little League, USA Gymnastics, US Soccer, the entertainment industry, public schools, and believe it or not, even child welfare services.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

That may be the core of the difference in our understanding. Here all the churches answer to the US conference of Catholic bishops (USCCB). I'm sure the Archdiocese of Toronto is governed by whatever organization of bishops three is in Canada. The two may have entirely different sets of rules.

Canada has the Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops, a very similar organization.

... but AFAIK, nobody "answers" to either one. They're both voluntary organizations with no authority in their own right.

This was pretty rampant for a long long time. My own research indicates it is not a "Catholic problem" but an "Institutional problem" in general. Any institution that discovers a scandal in its midst does what it can to keep it silent.

Not only have other religious groups, such as Synagogues, Protestant denominations, and Mosques covered up sexual abuse, but so have non-religious institutions like the Boy Scouts, Little League, USA Gymnastics, US Soccer, the entertainment industry, public schools, and believe it or not, even child welfare services.

To an extent, I agree. I mean, look at the residential school scandal: every denomination of significant size in Canada operated residential schools for indigenous children and all of them across the board had abuse. Apparently, the specific beliefs don't matter: from Catholics to Mennonite, if you give a Christian group access to children in an environment of low supervision and accountability, those children will suffer.

On the other hand, the Catholic Church differs from other organizations in reach and structure in ways that perpetuate abuse. The BSA can't just ship a predator scout leader off to Canada to avoid the law; Scouts Canada is a separate organization and doesn't have to take him.

The Ryan Report described many cases in Ireland where abuse would be reported to the police, but then the police would hand their files over to the local bishop and ask them to do the investigation. This generally doesn't happen with gymnastics coaches (or even with most other religious groups).

The Catholic Church is also unique in another important regard: while there are other religious organizations that are similarly authoritarian and hierarchical (though smaller), but if you sue, say, the LDS Church in Toronto, you're suing the same legal entity as the one in Salt Lake City. OTOH, if you sue the Catholic Church in Toronto, you're suing the Archdiocese of Toronto, a legally separate entity from the Vatican. The Catholic Church has set itself up to limit its financial liability from child abuse and other crimes.

But at its core, here's the problem as I see it: any organization entrusted with children or other vulnerable people needs significant oversight and transparency for the people they're entrusted with to be safe... but mandating this level of oversight and transparency is incompatible with freedom of religion.

When it came to light recently that Hockey Canada - the organization that oversees amateur hockey here - had been covering up abuse cases, the federal government immediately announced that they would be cutting Hockey Canada off from federal funding until they took a bunch of steps aimed at preventing future incidents.

This doesn't happen with religion. Churches don't have to worry about losing their tax-free status - or any of the other privileges they enjoy - for bad behaviour.

 

[metis]

Every single Catholic church I've belonged to has had this in place for all volunteers and paid positions as well, for everyone old or new.

When I rejoined the Church about 6 years ago, I told the priest I will always have questions because that is what we in science do, but I can help with commitment to the Church with charitable work and also with co-teaching in the RCIA program as I did for 14 years 25+ years ago. He said welcome aboard as long as I went to confession first, which I did.

 

[Muffled]

I have a concern with (run of the mill American Christian) churches - the Sunday school teachers may not be properly vetted, if vetted at all. It is up to the church to vet who they place in charge of the children.

I was a Sunday school teacher from 14-19. What the heck! What a terrible idea! My zealousness for Christ and familiarity with the Bible made me no way prepared to take on the task of teaching 30 children aged 4-11. I think the church was grooming me to be a pastor. I was an extremely mentally ill individual too who was not yet diagnosed or treated. And this friggin church had me in a teaching position to children. The parents were not involved. The parents just put the kids on the church bus and saw it as a free daycare service.

Don’t public education teachers get vetted in some form? Because they are in a position of authority over vulnerable children. Churches have no requirement to vet who deals with the children at all. I often regret my past dealings with the children. The children loved me, cause I was a “good cop” and let them be as wild as they wanted. What a madhouse those 6 years of teaching was.

I believe appearances are deceiving and there was no way they could read your mind but if you taught perversion it would get back to them. I was never vetted either but I was given guidelines for what to teach.

 

[Muffled]

This is a very good point. And a very bad practice in a lot of churches.

Sometimes it works out. I had a friend who was Methodist and called on to teach children but was not saved and didn't know the Bible. The teaching ended up teaching the teacher.