A concern I have with churches…

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No, they don't. There are background check companies where all records are accessible. I work with one every day.

Where do you think the criminal records those companies use for their background checks come from?

 

[SalixIncendium]

You are still depending on self vetting. We can all see the problem with self vetting.

Can "we"?

 

[SalixIncendium]

Where do you think the criminal records those companies use for their background checks come from?

This question is as relevant to the discussion as "where do babies come from?"

This has nothing to do with direct government vetting of a private entity.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

A background check.

A background check without the government being involved would be pretty useless. The government is the one with the records of criminal charges and convictions.

Networking and research.

Networking with who? Research of what?

Are you being vague because you know this approach wouldn't be effective at preventing abuse?

The onus is on the parent, not the government, to determine whether a church organization is safe for their child.

Sure, but parents can't do this effectively without proper information. This is why things like mandatory reporting laws are so important.

 

[VoidCat]

I have a concern with (run of the mill American Christian) churches - the Sunday school teachers may not be properly vetted, if vetted at all. It is up to the church to vet who they place in charge of the children.

I was a Sunday school teacher from 14-19. What the heck! What a terrible idea! My zealousness for Christ and familiarity with the Bible made me no way prepared to take on the task of teaching 30 children aged 4-11. I think the church was grooming me to be a pastor. I was an extremely mentally ill individual too who was not yet diagnosed or treated. And this friggin church had me in a teaching position to children. The parents were not involved. The parents just put the kids on the church bus and saw it as a free daycare service.

Don’t public education teachers get vetted in some form? Because they are in a position of authority over vulnerable children. Churches have no requirement to vet who deals with the children at all. I often regret my past dealings with the children. The children loved me, cause I was a “good cop” and let them be as wild as they wanted. What a madhouse those 6 years of teaching was.

Some sunday schools here in NC are considered childcare centers or family childcare homes and subjected to most the same laws as other childcare centers and family childcare homes. Here's a link that shows some the things such centers can and can't do https://ncchildcare.ncdhhs.gov/Portals/0/documents/pdf/C/center_chp15.pdf
They are required if they are considered a childcare center or family childcare home to be vetted. By the Department of child development and early education. This means taking required classes by law at a college, being of age(unless 16 and 17 and accompanied by an adult...), and having a background check done by that department. Sunday schools are not automatically considered as childcare centers or family childcare homes but can be if certain rules are met. This link explains when a place is considered a child care center

DIV Contents

If your provider is caring for more than two children who aren't related and they provide care for more than four hours a day, they probably should be licensed. In general, there are two types of programs regulated by the state, family child care homes and child care centers.

• Family child care home
  • A child care arrangement located in a residence where, at any one time, more than two children, but less than nine children, receive child care.
• Child care center
  • A child care arrangement where, at any one time, there are three or more preschool-age children or nine or more school-age children receiving child care. This also includes a center located in a residence, where the program is in a residence and the licensed capacity is six through twelve children, or up to fifteen school-age children.

There are exemptions listed on that link but i am not going to post the whole page due to copyright laws.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

This question is as relevant to the discussion as "where do babies come from?"

This has nothing to do with direct government vetting of a private entity.

Who do you think is proposing "direct government vetting of a private entity"? I'm not.

I'm not talking about anything like licensing requirements for churches. The framework I'm talking about is:

- mandatory enhanced background checks for any staff or volunteers dealing with vulnerable people.

- the organization has to develop a vulnerable person protection plan, post it publicly, and make sure it's followed.

- mantadory reporting of any allegations of abuse of vulnerable people.

And this would apply to any organization with responsibility for vulnerable people, not just churches.

If a church didn't want to follow this framework, they could just make sure that they never have responsibility for vulnerable people (e.g. by requiring parents and guardian accompaniment for any youth programming).

 

[wellwisher]

I have a concern with (run of the mill American Christian) churches - the Sunday school teachers may not be properly vetted, if vetted at all. It is up to the church to vet who they place in charge of the children.

I was a Sunday school teacher from 14-19. What the heck! What a terrible idea! My zealousness for Christ and familiarity with the Bible made me no way prepared to take on the task of teaching 30 children aged 4-11. I think the church was grooming me to be a pastor. I was an extremely mentally ill individual too who was not yet diagnosed or treated. And this friggin church had me in a teaching position to children. The parents were not involved. The parents just put the kids on the church bus and saw it as a free daycare service.

Don’t public education teachers get vetted in some form? Because they are in a position of authority over vulnerable children. Churches have no requirement to vet who deals with the children at all. I often regret my past dealings with the children. The children loved me, cause I was a “good cop” and let them be as wild as they wanted. What a madhouse those 6 years of teaching was.

From what you describe; being the good cop, you epitomized the teachings of Jesus; love, turn the other cheek and forgiveness. Although this approach can be hectic and even hurt your pride, it produced love in the children. If you had been the harsh bad cop and could control the children, with an iron fist, where is all the love? All you would have is law, judgement and fear instill in the children. You were chosen for a reason and vetted based on the criteria of love. But you need to place that love, before your pride, and see the good you did.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Networking with who?

Others who are involved or have children attending the program.

Research of what?

Whether or not the entity does background checks and what their hiring standards are.

Sure, but parents can't do this effectively without proper information.

Sure they can. The information is out there. They just have to bother to look for it.

This is why things like mandatory reporting laws are so important.

Who suggested they weren't?

Who do you think is proposing "direct government vetting of a private entity"? I'm not.

If you bothered to read my posts in the thread, you'd have seen that the government not being directly involved in the vetting process was the basis of my whole argument. If you're not, then there is nothing to argue about.

 

[ppp]

Can "we"?

Yes. We. No scare quotes are necessary. Transparency mitigates bad behavior.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Some sunday schools here in NC are considered childcare centers or family childcare homes and subjected to most the same laws as other childcare centers and family childcare homes. Here's a link that shows some the things such centers can and can't do https://ncchildcare.ncdhhs.gov/Portals/0/documents/pdf/C/center_chp15.pdf
They are required if they are considered a childcare center or family childcare home to be vetted. By the Department of child development and early education. This means taking required classes by law at a college, being of age(unless 16 and 17 and accompanied by an adult...), and having a background check done by that department. Sunday schools are not automatically considered as childcare centers or family childcare homes but can be if certain rules are met. This link explains when a place is considered a child care center

DIV Contents

There are exemptions listed on that link but i am not going to post the whole page due to copyright laws.

In some states, church-based child care is exempt from the normal rules that apply to day care centres. In six of them, there's little to no regulation for daycares run by churches.

In Six States, Religious Child Care Centers Operate With Little to No Regulation

Child care providers in these six states have a financial incentive to claim the religious exemption from licensure.

www.newamerica.org

 

[an anarchist]

If you bothered to read my posts in the thread, you'd have seen that the government not being directly involved in the vetting process was the basis of my whole argument. If you're not, then there is nothing to argue about.

I am refraining from posting in debate threads, but I do want to suggest that I think @9-10ths_Penguin may be in favor of government mandating a standard for a vetting process that is to be followed by others that are not the government. These other people that are not the government (such as the church) would be directly doing the vetting.

Would this be something that either of you would oppose?

 

[SalixIncendium]

Yes. We. No scare quotes are necessary. Transparency mitigates bad behavior.

I'm not even sure what you're arguing anymore, but I never said anything about not being transparent.

 

[Eddi]

No, they don't. There are background check companies where all records are accessible. I work with one every day.

In the UK it is done through a specific government agency so they do over here

 

[VoidCat]

In some states, church-based child care is exempt from the normal rules that apply to day care centres. In six of them, there's little to no regulation for daycares run by churches.

In Six States, Religious Child Care Centers Operate With Little to No Regulation

Child care providers in these six states have a financial incentive to claim the religious exemption from licensure.

www.newamerica.org

Yes I know. If you read the links there are some things church based childcare are exempt from. But...they have to still be at least regulated enough to meet one star standards in NC.

And yes there is a religious exemption for corporal punishment unfortunately

 

[ppp]

I'm not even sure what you're arguing anymore, but I never said anything about not being transparent.

Cool. Via what practical methodology do you propose enforcing vetting, and and making that process and the results transparent?

 

[VoidCat]

Yes I know. If you read the links there are some things church based childcare are exempt from. But...they have to still be at least regulated enough to meet one star standards in NC.

And yes there is a religious exemption for corporal punishment unfortunately

@9-10ths_Penguin Note: star system in NC is tricky. It's not the same as the rating system that most think of as stars. One star just means it meets basic needs of a childcare center. Religious childcare is exempt from the star system unless they apply but if they apply they have to give up certain exemptions. However they still need to meet the standards of a one star facility regardless aside from certain exemptions which are listed in the links I provided. Either way I dont recommend one star facilities or such exempt religious facilities. While there's a lot of regulations for one star facilities I recommend a daycare that at least meets 3 stars license. Just cuz i am a daycare worker and I seen how the daycares work and what is needed to meet these star ratings, 3 stars minimum is best policy in NC.

 

[SalixIncendium]

I am refraining from posting in debate threads, but I do want to suggest that I think @9-10ths_Penguin may be in favor of government mandating a standard for a vetting process that is to be followed by others that are not the government. These other people that are not the government (such as the church) would be directly doing the vetting.

Would this be something that either of you would oppose?

Yes. Big Brother has no business setting vetting standards for private entities. It's up to the private entity set the vetting standards (within the confines of the law, of course) and up to the parent to decide if these vetting standards are safe for their children.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Cool. Via what practical methodology do you propose enforcing vetting, and and making that process and the results transparent?

See what I said above in response to @an anarchist.

 

[ppp]

See what I said above in response to @an anarchist.

That sounds like there is no enforcement of vetting. That it is entirely up to the whim of the organization.

 

[SalixIncendium]

That sounds like there is no enforcement of vetting. That it is entirely up to the whim of the organization.

And the parents.

Who do you think should be responsible for enforcing vetting?