A concern I have with churches…

[an anarchist]

Yes. Big Brother has no business setting vetting standards for private entities. It's up to the private entity set the vetting standards (within the confines of the law, of course) and up to the parent to decide if these vetting standards are safe for their children.

I emphasize the bolded above.

Is that not Big Brother setting vetting standards through laws? When you say “within the confines of the law” are you not saying you agree to the government having some say in the regulation of the vetting of people such as Sunday School teachers?

Edit: for example, presently I don’t think the government would let a church use a registered SO as a children’s teacher. So that is the government enforcing its vetting standard on the church.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Is that not Big Brother setting vetting standards through laws? When you say “within the confines of the law” are you not saying you agree to the government having some say in the regulation of the vetting of people such as Sunday School teachers?

No. It's Big Brother setting laws, not vetting standards. The church can vet Sunday school teachers as it pleases. It's not the government's place to tell the church how to vet. It's the parents' place to know the church's vetting standards and choose through their own vetting process whether or not to enroll their child.

 

[an anarchist]

It's Big Brother setting laws, not vetting standards

I don’t necessarily see the difference between these two, but I think we can agree to disagree on that.

 

[ppp]

And the parents.

Who do you think should be responsible for enforcing vetting?

No. Not the whim of the parents unless the parents can afford the choice. In your system , organizations who vet in a transparent, accountable, and effective manner are only available to those with enough privilege to afford it. The children of vulnerable persons are made more vulnerable. You keep shouting "Big Brother" as thought your disdain for government counts more than the exploitation of your fellow humans. It doesn't.

 

[SalixIncendium]

No. Not the whim of the parents unless the parents can afford the choice. In your system , organizations who vet in a transparent, accountable, and effective manner are only available to those with enough privilege to afford it. The children of vulnerable persons are made more vulnerable. You keep shouting "Big Brother" as thought your disdain for government counts more than the exploitation of your fellow humans. It doesn't.

Right. Because churches and other organizations are corrupt, but there isn't a shred of corruption in government.

If you want big government...a government who dictates what your liberties are and makes personal choices for you, that's your prerogative. I, on the other hand, am in favor of personal liberty and a person's right to make a choice.

 

[ppp]

No. It's Big Brother setting laws, not vetting standards

The laws are the standards by which vetting is to be done. Setting a codified standard of behaviors by law, is setting law. Assigning auditors to evaluate behaviors of an institution against those standards, with the power to accredidate, penalize, or shut down the organization is enforcement.

 

[SalixIncendium]

The laws are the standards by which vetting is to be done. Setting a codified standard of behaviors by law, is setting law.

You're just convoluting definitions of terms at this point. These statements have muddied the discussion to the point where when someone uses the term "law," no one will have any idea if one is talking about the laws that are the standards or the underlying laws the standards are set by.

I'm not sure at this point if this is unintentional or a clever debate tactic.

Either way, you understand my position and I understand yours. Any further exchange between us on the subject is futile.

 

[Spice]

You guys have totally confused me. I thought this OP was about "Sunday School." You know, that hour once a week on Sunday mornings where children gather in age groups to color pictures of Jesus holding a lamb, singing "Jesus Loves Me", or as they get older maybe learn a little bit about Issac and Ishmael, before joining the adults in the sanctuary for "serious and quiet" time. But the conversation has rolled over to church operated private institutions of learning it seems. Yes, if the church is hiring teachers to be with the children everyday and prepare them for high learning, that's a whole different process needed.

Have I missed something about what Sunday School actually is?

 

[SalixIncendium]

You guys have totally confused me. I thought this OP was about "Sunday School." You know, that hour once a week on Sunday mornings where children gather in age groups to color pictures of Jesus holding a lamb, singing "Jesus Loves Me", or as they get older maybe learn a little bit about Issac and Ishmael, before joining the adults in the sanctuary for "serious and quiet" time. But the conversation has rolled over to church operated private institutions of learning it seems. Yes, if the church is hiring teachers to be with the children everyday and prepare them for high learning, that's a whole different process needed.

Have I missed something about what Sunday School actually is?

THANK you for this!

 

[Jimmy]

I’m sure churches do background checks.

 

[SalixIncendium]

I’m sure churches do background checks.

Only since 1979.

 

[ppp]

You're just convoluting definitions of terms at this point.

No. I am refusing to conflate actions or accede to your insistence on muddling either action or events without challenge. Everything that you have proposed has been as non specific as you possibly could make it. At this point I am convinced that your position is a purely emotional knee jerk reaction to government with no substantive evaluation of the effects of that position.

 

[Jimmy]

Only since 1979.

You’ll type that again in the next life.

 

[SalixIncendium]

No. I am refusing to conflate actions or accede to your insistence on muddling either action or events without challenge. Everything that you have proposed has been as non specific as you possibly could make it. At this point I am convinced that your position is a purely emotional knee jerk reaction to government with no substantive evaluation of the effects of that position.

Okay.

 

[Muffled]

There is an NYU Press cite dealing with Mainline Christianity, a book by Jason Latzer that I will almost certainly never read. The site promotes the book as follows ...

Since the Revolutionary War, Mainline Christianity has been comprised of the Seven Sisters of American Protestantism—the Congregational Church, the Episcopal Church, the Evangelical Lutheran Church, the Presbyterian Church, the United Methodist Church, the American Baptist Convention, and the Disciples of Christ.​

​

These denominations have been the dominant cultural representatives since the nineteenth century of how and where the majority of American Christians worship. Today, however, the Seven Sisters no longer represent most American Christians. The Mainline has been shrinking while evangelical and fundamentalist churches, as well as non denominational congregations and mega churches, have been attracting more and more members.​

It is almost as if "mainline churches" is a euphemism for "not Catholic."

The Disciples of Christ will like that . For a long time they were considered suspect. The ABC isn't the only Baptist convention and I imagine a good many could be considerd mainline, same goes for Methodist, Episcopal, Presbyterian and Lutheran. I might also include Advent (Not 7th day), Evangelical and Missionary Alliance as well.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Only since 1979.

I thought it was 1980.

 

[Muffled]

There is an NYU Press cite dealing with Mainline Christianity, a book by Jason Latzer that I will almost certainly never read. The site promotes the book as follows ...

Since the Revolutionary War, Mainline Christianity has been comprised of the Seven Sisters of American Protestantism—the Congregational Church, the Episcopal Church, the Evangelical Lutheran Church, the Presbyterian Church, the United Methodist Church, the American Baptist Convention, and the Disciples of Christ.​

​

These denominations have been the dominant cultural representatives since the nineteenth century of how and where the majority of American Christians worship. Today, however, the Seven Sisters no longer represent most American Christians. The Mainline has been shrinking while evangelical and fundamentalist churches, as well as non denominational congregations and mega churches, have been attracting more and more members.​

It is almost as if "mainline churches" is a euphemism for "not Catholic."

I believe however that it also excludes pentecostals, JWs, Mormons, 7th Day Adventists. Then there are cults like the Way International.

 

[SalixIncendium]

I thought it was 1980.

Me too. But apparently daylight savings time affects the year the world came into existence.