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A contradiction by Baha'allah regarding the finality of Mohammad (s).

Link

Veteran Member
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In one place, he says, that it means Mohammad (s) is the final Nabi just as he Mohammad (s) is the first Adam (a) and that all Prophets (a) are each other type meaning.

In another place, he says, it means he is the final one in the old cycle before the new cycle of creation.

This is a contradiction.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
In one place, he says, that it means Mohammad (s) is the final Nabi just as he Mohammad (s) is the first Adam (a) and that all Prophets (a) are each other type meaning.

In another place, he says, it means he is the final one in the old cycle before the new cycle of creation.

This is a contradiction.

Baha'u'llah offers a much deeper understanding of why Muhammad is called "Seal of Prophets"

He reveals the secret of God.

Baha'u'llah explains in Ighan, that, in each Age, God stirred up 'commotion'.

He gives examples. He narrates the story of Moses, that how Moses ended up killing a man, and therefore had to flee. Once He came back to people, He was known as a person who committed Murder. So, when Moses claimed that, God spoke to Him, and made Him a Messenger, this was very difficult for people to accept Him, because He was already known as a Murderer among people. After all, Who was going to believe that a Murderer, who fled, who was raised in the household of Pharaoh, the tyrant king, can be really the God's Messenger?!!!!

Baha'u'llah then says:

"Was not God, the omnipotent King, able to withhold the hand of Moses from murder, so that manslaughter should not be attributed unto Him, causing bewilderment and aversion among the people?"


Baha'u'llah then goes on, and gives another example. This time about Jesus.

He narrates the story of how Mary, mother of Jesus got pregnant without being married first. This caused people to think of Mary, as an adulterous.

Really, after all, in those days, who was going to believe the story and claim of Mary, that she got pregnant by the Holy Spirt?!!!

One should try to put himself in her place to get the feeling of the situation!

Now, once Jesus was born, therefore, He became known among people, as an illegitimate child. Thus, some years later, when He claimed to be the Messenger of God, People had much more difficulty to accept His claim. After all, someone who in their sight was an illegitimate child whose mother was known as adulterous, claimed to be the Messenger of God!!!

One can immagine, that It must have been obvious to them, He was a liar, just like His adulterous mother!

Baha'u'llah explains, these things happend only, and only according to the Will of God, to stir up commotion.

"And now, meditate upon this most great convulsion, this grievous test. Notwithstanding all these things, God conferred upon that essence of the Spirit, Who was known amongst the people as fatherless, the glory of Prophethood, and made Him His testimony unto all that are in heaven and on earth.
Behold how contrary are the ways of the Manifestations of God, as ordained by the King of creation, to the ways and desires of men! "



Meaning, God's will has been to create, a type of difficulty and barrier for the people at the Time of every Messenger, so, only those who truly investigate the Truth, and make an effort for God, may become successful in recognition of His Messenger.

I think of it, as creating a mechanism that Tests and Separates those who want to find easy reason to disbelieve from those who look and search after God in truth and sincerely.
There must be a difference between sincere ones and those whose heart has disease.

This way, Those who look for excuses and want to disbelieve, can find an easy way to reject, and be in the Hell, they choose for themselves.

Remember, only those who make an effort for God, must be guided!

وَٱلَّذِينَ جَـٰهَدُوا۟ فِينَا لَنَهْدِيَنَّهُمْ سُبُلَنَا ۚ
Quran 29:69

Then Baha'u'llah goes on, and explains, this has been always the way of God. God creates a barrier, to separate those who truly make an effort for God, so, only they may be guided, and the rest, go astray.

Bahaullah then explains, Likewise, For this Age, God did this, by designating Muhammad as "Seal of Prophets", creating a commotion For the people of this Age.

God did so, to Create a false idea that, there won't be another Revelation after Muhammad. this was the Barrier this time, to test those who make an effort for God. (just as how He created false idea that Jesus was illegitimate).

Thus, Creating a obstacle or a Mechanism that Separates those who want to easily disbelieve from those who make an effort, and search after God. One needs to pass from this Obstacle to find the Right Path.

Thus, according to Baha'u'llah, the main Purpose of God, for designating Muhammad as "Seal of Prophets" was to create this Obstacle, that causes the disbelievers to think, that Muhammad is the Final.

Baha'u'llah explains:

"The mystery of this theme (Seal of Prophets) hath, in this Dispensation, been a sore test unto all mankind. Behold, how many are those who, clinging unto these words (Seal of Prophets), have disbelieved Him Who is their true Revealer."

Baha'u'llah goes on and explains, this is how God creates "Veils", so, the truth may not be seen, easily, unless one makes a true effort to remove the veil:

"Furthermore, among the “veils of glory” are such terms as the “Seal of the Prophets” and the like, the removal of which is a supreme achievement in the sight of these baseborn and erring souls. "

Have you heard, God has thousands of veils, and on the Day of Resurrection, disbelievers cannot see Him?

But the reality is that, this term "Seal" can have different meanings, and only God, Himself can claim what He meant by it. (Quran 3:7). To insist that one knows what it means, is yet failing another test of God! Did not God say, only He knows its interpretation? 3:7


Is my explanation clear to you so far?

If you want to understand Baha'u'llah's explanation of "Seal of Prophets", you must first understand what I tried to explain here. Without that, it is not possible.
 
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Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You have a contradiction in your own philosophy and reasoning. You say God should be clearer in designation of Mohammad (s) as the final Prophet. And you also then talk about how God causes commotion and makes things unclear as a test. These two reasonings don't go together.

Usually a middle ground where God is clear enough for sincere but misguides the insincere is best. This is different then making things difficult and that you have to assume God is unclear as a test.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
This is what Baha’u’llah says about how mankind has continued to reject the Prophets of God every time They appear this time no different. It is humanity’s shame that we continue to reject and persecute God’s Prophets and it’s the same this time round.

Praise be to Thee, O Lord my God, for the wondrous revelations of Thine inscrutable decree and the manifold woes and trials Thou hast destined for myself.

At one time Thou didst deliver me into the hands of Nimrod;

at another Thou hast allowed Pharaoh’s rod to persecute me.


Thou alone canst estimate, through Thine all-encompassing knowledge and the operation of Thy Will, the incalculable afflictions I have suffered at their hands.

Again Thou didst cast me into the prison-cell of the ungodly for no reason except that I was moved to whisper into the ears of the well-favored denizens of Thy kingdom an intimation of the vision with which Thou hadst, through Thy knowledge, inspired me and revealed to me its meaning through the potency of Thy might.

And again Thou didst decree that I be beheaded by the sword of the infidel.

Again I was crucified for having unveiled to men’s eyes the hidden gems of Thy glorious unity, for having revealed to them the wondrous signs of Thy sovereign and everlasting power.

How bitter the humiliations heaped upon me, in a subsequent age, on the plain of Karbilá! How lonely did I feel amidst Thy people; to what state of helplessness I was reduced in that land! Unsatisfied with such indignities, my persecutors decapitated me and carrying aloft my head from land to land paraded it before the gaze of the unbelieving multitude and deposited it on the seats of the perverse and faithless.

In a later age I was suspended and my breast was made a target to the darts of the malicious cruelty of my foes. My limbs were riddled with bullets and my body was torn asunder.

Finally, behold how in this day my treacherous enemies have leagued themselves against me, and are continually plotting to instill the venom of hate and malice into the souls of Thy servants. With all their might they are scheming to accomplish their purpose… Grievous as is my plight, O God, my Well-beloved, I render thanks unto Thee, and my spirit is grateful for whatsoever hath befallen me in the path of Thy good-pleasure. I am well pleased with that which Thou didst ordain for me, and welcome, however calamitous, the pains and sorrows I am made to suffer.”
 

Link

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Premium Member
This is what Baha’u’llah says about how mankind has continued to reject the Prophets of God every time They appear this time no different. It is humanity’s shame that we continue to reject and persecute God’s Prophets and it’s the same this time round.

Praise be to Thee, O Lord my God, for the wondrous revelations of Thine inscrutable decree and the manifold woes and trials Thou hast destined for myself.

At one time Thou didst deliver me into the hands of Nimrod;

at another Thou hast allowed Pharaoh’s rod to persecute me.


Thou alone canst estimate, through Thine all-encompassing knowledge and the operation of Thy Will, the incalculable afflictions I have suffered at their hands.

Again Thou didst cast me into the prison-cell of the ungodly for no reason except that I was moved to whisper into the ears of the well-favored denizens of Thy kingdom an intimation of the vision with which Thou hadst, through Thy knowledge, inspired me and revealed to me its meaning through the potency of Thy might.

And again Thou didst decree that I be beheaded by the sword of the infidel.

Again I was crucified for having unveiled to men’s eyes the hidden gems of Thy glorious unity, for having revealed to them the wondrous signs of Thy sovereign and everlasting power.

How bitter the humiliations heaped upon me, in a subsequent age, on the plain of Karbilá! How lonely did I feel amidst Thy people; to what state of helplessness I was reduced in that land! Unsatisfied with such indignities, my persecutors decapitated me and carrying aloft my head from land to land paraded it before the gaze of the unbelieving multitude and deposited it on the seats of the perverse and faithless.

In a later age I was suspended and my breast was made a target to the darts of the malicious cruelty of my foes. My limbs were riddled with bullets and my body was torn asunder.

Finally, behold how in this day my treacherous enemies have leagued themselves against me, and are continually plotting to instill the venom of hate and malice into the souls of Thy servants. With all their might they are scheming to accomplish their purpose… Grievous as is my plight, O God, my Well-beloved, I render thanks unto Thee, and my spirit is grateful for whatsoever hath befallen me in the path of Thy good-pleasure. I am well pleased with that which Thou didst ordain for me, and welcome, however calamitous, the pains and sorrows I am made to suffer.”
That does not address the OP.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
That does not address the OP.
It complies exactly with the Quran to the letter. The Dispensation of Islam in the Quran is 1,000 years. The Quran states that the Revelations of God are never ending. Muhammad was the last of the Prophets to warn of the Day of God. Now that Day has arrived. Baha’u’llah by referring to His return in every age is confirming what every Holy Book says especially the Quran. These are all verses from the Quran which Muslims have dismissed and gone along with the Islamic doctor’s interpretations. I have investigated myself and found overwhelming proof the Quran predicts Two Messengers and that They will bring the same religion. I read the Quran using my own God given mind and I find proof after proof confirming all I have mentioned here.

The paragraph above is all paraphrased from actual verses in the Quran. People who know the Quran should know exactly which verses are being referred to. Because the Muslim mindset is so rigid regarding the finality of Muhammad it is not able to think out of the box and so has missed Two Messengers of God mentioned again and again in the Quran and have also missed the Day of God.

Baha’u’llah has got it perfectly right. It’s Muslims that do not understand the Quran that has left them without any divine guidance for this age as it is now flowing through Baha’u’llah. Christians accused Muhammad of similar things and they too missed that Muhammad is mentioned all thro ugh the Bible. To this day Jews reject Christ, Christians reject Muhammad and Muslims reject Baha’u’llah. Yet all the Holy Books speak of Christ, Muhammad and the Bab and Baha’u’llah. It is unfortunate that people cling to one interpretation which comes from priests and doctors. The Quran says the true interpretation will come so how can Muslims say they are sure about any of the meanings? The Bible too says the Books are sealed yet every Christian believes he knows the meanings.

We claim that Baha’u’llah brought the true interpretation. But people are free to reject just as they have been free to reject in the past. Continuance of Divine Revelation is a well established fact in the Quran. I’ve read it with my own eyes. But when one is biased they cannot see it and will always say that no Prophet is to come after Muhammad because it is the commonly held belief but is definitely not supported in the Quran.

We share this in a spirit of love so always understand that it is just my understanding and belief. I of course respect that you choose to disagree.
 

Link

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Premium Member
It complies exactly with the Quran to the letter. The Dispensation of Islam in the Quran is 1,000 years. The Quran states that the Revelations of God are never ending. Muhammad was the last of the Prophets to warn of the Day of God. Now that Day has arrived. Baha’u’llah by referring to His return in every age is confirming what every Holy Book says especially the Quran. These are all verses from the Quran which Muslims have dismissed and gone along with the Islamic doctor’s interpretations. I have investigated myself and found overwhelming proof the Quran predicts Two Messengers and that They will bring the same religion. I read the Quran using my own God given mind and I find proof after proof confirming all I have mentioned here.

The paragraph above is all paraphrased from actual verses in the Quran. People who know the Quran should know exactly which verses are being referred to. Because the Muslim mindset is so rigid regarding the finality of Muhammad it is not able to think out of the box and so has missed Two Messengers of God mentioned again and again in the Quran and have also missed the Day of God.

Baha’u’llah has got it perfectly right. It’s Muslims that do not understand the Quran that has left them without any divine guidance for this age as it is now flowing through Baha’u’llah. Christians accused Muhammad of similar things and they too missed that Muhammad is mentioned all thro ugh the Bible. To this day Jews reject Christ, Christians reject Muhammad and Muslims reject Baha’u’llah. Yet all the Holy Books speak of Christ, Muhammad and the Bab and Baha’u’llah. It is unfortunate that people cling to one interpretation which comes from priests and doctors. The Quran says the true interpretation will come so how can Muslims say they are sure about any of the meanings? The Bible too says the Books are sealed yet every Christian believes he knows the meanings.

We claim that Baha’u’llah brought the true interpretation. But people are free to reject just as they have been free to reject in the past. Continuance of Divine Revelation is a well established fact in the Quran. I’ve read it with my own eyes. But when one is biased they cannot see it and will always say that no Prophet is to come after Muhammad because it is the commonly held belief but is definitely not supported in the Quran.

We share this in a spirit of love so always understand that it is just my understanding and belief. I of course respect that you choose to disagree.

You are preaching but not addressing the opening post. The opening post is about a simple contradiction.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
He narrates the story of Moses,
As if Baha'is take the story literally. I suppose that part of the story is true, but other things were not. Like how about his staff turning into a snake? Or any of the ten plagues against the Egyptians? Or that the sea parted for Moses and the Hebrews to cross but closed back up and drowned the Egyptian army?

Baha'u'llah also tells the story of Noah, but he doesn't mention anything about the flood?

Then the story of Abraham? It was written down centuries before the Quran or the Baha'i writings, yet with that story Baha'is agree with the Quran and say that it was Ishmael and not Isaac taken by Abraham to be sacrificed. Why would the Jews have changed the supposed truth? And switch which son was taken? They invented the story. As if it really happened. So, what is it? That part of the story is true and was an actual, historical event, but the Jews put the wrong son into the story?

Unless you believe it all, I don't see how Baha'is can have any credibility for just picking choosing which verses they take literally.
 

Link

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Premium Member
The following is from Kitabal Itqan:

Likewise, from this statement it is made evident that the term "last" is applicable to the "first," and the term "first" applicable to the "last;" inasmuch as both the "first" and the "last" have risen to proclaim one and the same Faith.
Notwithstanding the obviousness of this theme, in the eyes of those that have quaffed the wine of
knowledge and certitude, yet how many are those who, through failure to understand its meaning, have allowed the term "Seal of the Prophets" to obscure their understanding, and deprive them of the grace of all His manifold bounties! Hath not Muhhammad, Himself, declared: "I am all the Prophets?" Hath He not said as We have already mentioned: "I am Adam, Noah, Moses, and Jesus?" Why should Muhammad, that immortal Beauty, Who hath said: "I am the first Adam" be incapable of saying also: "I am the last Adam"? For even as He regarded Himself to be the "First of the Prophets" — that is Adam — in like manner, the "Seal of the Prophets" is also applicable unto that Divine Beauty. It is admittedly obvious that being the "First of the Prophets," He likewise is their "Seal."
The mystery of this theme hath, in this Dispensation, been a sore test unto all mankind. Behold, how many are those who, clinging unto these words, have disbelieved Him Who is their true Revealer. What, We ask, could this people presume the terms "first" and "last" — when referring to God — glorified be His Name! — to mean? If they maintain that these terms bear reference to
this material universe, how could it be possible, when the visible order of things is still manifestly existing? Nay, in this instance, by "first" is meant no other than the "last" and by "last" no other than the "first."
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
There is this meaning:

In Baha’u’llah’s Sura of Patience—revealed on April 22, 1863 in Baghdad on Ridvan, the first day of the Baha’i Festival of Paradise—he wrote:

Recite then unto them that which the celestial Dove of the Spirit hath warbled in the holy Riḍván of the Beloved, that perchance they may examine that which hath been elucidated concerning “sealing” by the tongue of him he who is well-grounded in knowledge in the prayer of visitation for the name of God, ‘Alí [Imam ‘Alī]. He hath said—and his word is the truth!—:
“[He (Muḥammad) is] the seal of what came before Him and the harbinger of what will appear after Him.”
In such wise hath the meaning of “sealing” been mentioned by the tongue of inaccessible holiness. Thus hath God designated His Friend [Muhammad] to be a seal for the Prophets who preceded Him and a harbinger of the Messengers who will appear after Him. – Baha’u’llah, the Sura of Patience, provisional translation by Omid Ghaemmaghami.

So I see a clear contradiction between the two quotes.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member


I don't know what you mean by contradiction. Perhaps you want to explain.

But the word Khaatam in the Writings of the Bab can be found to mean "Ring":

فاّن كّل ما رفع البيان كخاتم في يدي وانّني انا خاتم
في يدْي من يظهره الّله​

"...all that hath been exalted in the Bayán is but as a ring upon My hand, and I Myself am, verily, but a ring upon the hand of Him Whom God shall make manifest—glorified be His mention!"



Likewise in Baha'u'llah's Writing, it means Ring:

"And likewise, He saith: “Suffer not yourselves to be shut out as by a veil from God after He hath revealed Himself. For all that hath been exalted in the Bayán is but as a ring upon My hand, and I Myself am, verily, but a ring upon the hand of Him Whom God shall make manifest—glorified be His mention! He turneth it as He pleaseth, for whatsoever He pleaseth, and through whatsoever He pleaseth"



So, that shows, Baha'u'llah knew that the word Khaatam means "Ring", yet, why He did not argue that Khaatamu Nabiyeen does not mean the Last prophet, but it means the Ring of Prophets?

So, by this verse, Baha'u'llah taught that, Khaatam meant Ring, but did not want to argue about it with the Opposition. There is a wisdom in that, otherwise He could easily say that.

And for me, does not make a difference. Even if, Khaatamu Nabiyeen meant, the Last Prophet, it does not make any difference on my belief, as I still believe Resurrection Day has come, so, Muhammad was the Last Prophet till Resurrection Day.
But, I am pretty sure, this word, never meant the Last, or Final.
 
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Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I don't know what you mean by contradiction. Perhaps you want to explain.

The first explanation is he is the last Prophet which is not Mohammad (s) in same way he is Adam (a), so he is both first and last and all Prophets.

The second explanation is that he is the last Prophet of a cycle. These two explanations don't go together.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
The first explanation is he is the last Prophet which is not Mohammad (s) in same way he is Adam (a), so he is both first and last and all Prophets.

Baha'u'llah in Ighan does not say "Khaatam" means last.
Baha'u'llah says, just as Muhammad is the First, He is also the Last.

This is a reference to what Muhammad said in a Hadith when He said "I am all Prophets"

النبيون فانا


So, Baha'u'llah reminds that, if Muhammad says He is the first prophet (Adam) it is true, and if He says, I am the Last Prophet, it is true, as All Prophets are One spiritually. Likewise if Muhammad says, I am the Seal, it is true
We cannot conclude by this, that, Baha'u'llah is necessarily is saying, Khatam means Last. He is saying, there is nothing wrong with saying Muhammad is "Seal", since it does not mean Final.
If it meant Final or the Last one, then there was something wrong.


The second explanation is that he is the last Prophet of a cycle. These two explanations don't go together.

In the Surah of Patience, Baha'u'llah is not explaining the term "Khaatam".
He is explaining what is intended when it is said Muhammad has ended. ( ختم).

This is again in refence to some of the Hadithes, when they say with Muhammad the chain of Prophethood came to end.

If you read the Quote below carefully, He is not talking about the term خاتم النبيين.






وَقَوْلُهُ الحق

الْخَاتِمُ لِمَا سَبَقَ وَالْفَاتِحُ لِمَا اسْتُقْبِلَ وَكذَلِك ذَكَر مَعْنَى الْخَتْمِ مِنْ لِسَانِ قُدسٍ مَنِيعًا كَذَلِكَ جَعَلَ اللّٰهُ حَبِيبَهُ خَاتِمًا لِمَا سَبَقُوهُ مِنَ النَّبِيِّينَ وَفَاتِحًا لِمَا يأْتِي مِنَ الْمُرْسَلِين​
مِنْ بَعْدُ إِذًا تَفَكَّرُوا يَا مَلَأَ الْأَرْضِ فِيمَا أَلْقَينَاكُمْ بِالْحَقّ لَعَلَّ تَجِدونَ إِلَى مَكمَنِ الْأَمْرِ فِي شَاطِئِ الْقُدْسِ سَبيلاً وَلَا تَحْتَجِبُوا عَمَّا سَمِعْتُمْ مِنْ عُلَمَائِكُمْ ثُمَّ اسْئَلُوا أُمُورَ دِينِكمْ عَنِ الَّذِي جَعَلَهُ اللّٰهُ رَاسِخًا فِي عِلْمِهِ وَكَانَتِ الْأَنْوَارُ مِنْ نُورِ وَجْهِهِ مُتَلَئْلِأً وَمُضِيئًا يَا أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ اتَّقُوا اللّٰهَ وَلَا تَتَّخِذُوا الْعِلْمَ مِنَ الْعُيونِ الْمُكدرَةِ ا

حضرة بهاء الله, سورة الصبر (لوح ايوب)
 

Link

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Premium Member
Salam

I disagree with him not talking about the term in the final quote:

كَذَلِكَ جَعَلَ اللّٰهُ حَبِيبَهُ خَاتِمًا لِمَا سَبَقُوهُ مِنَ النَّبِيِّينَ


Also, language is contextual. The problem with you, is that you decontextualize language. You do in Quran with Angels for example not being entities other than humans. You do it with day of judgment. Now you do it with the words of your own Prophet.

Language is contextual. This is something you don't understand.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
By context, he did say that. Why else bring the word khatam and talk about it in that terms?

You are reading more than what He says.

The reason that He puts them in the same contxt, is to teach, that, All Prophets can bear the same Names or titles. He says, every Messenger can say, He is the first one. Every Messenger can say, He is the Last one and every one of them can say, He is their Khaatam (the Signet Ring of Confirmation, their seal of confirmation).
 

Link

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Premium Member
You are reading more than what He says.

The reason that He puts them in the same contxt, is to teach, that, All Prophets can bear the same Names or titles. He says, every Messenger can say, He is the first one. Every Messenger can say, He is the Last one and every one of them can say, He is their Khaatam (the Signet Ring of Confirmation, their seal of confirmation).
No, I'm reading the context and see it linked to him bringing up seal. The first and last talk is to say that seal does mean last, but what's wrong with Mohammad (s) not being but being last in same way he is first and Adam (a). There is no other reason to bring it up and connect it with those sentences.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
No, I'm reading the context and see it linked to him bringing up seal. The first and last talk is to say that seal does mean last, but what's wrong with Mohammad (s) not being but being last in same way he is first and Adam (a). There is no other reason to bring it up and connect it with those sentences.

You can read the cotext the way you want. But you cannot prove it. Nowhere Baha'u'llah stated, "Khaatam" means last.

I already discussed that. This word, never, ever mean Last. I challenged if you can find only one Arabic sentence with word "Khaatam" as in the Last, and you could not. Does not that tell you, Muslims mistook the meaning of this word, and because of its similarity to word Khatm, they thought it means last? Thus God misleads those who have a disease in their Heart. Those who like pervious Ummahs, interpret their Book, to mean "Never a prophet comes after this"
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You can read the cotext the way you want. But you cannot prove it. Nowhere Baha'u'llah stated, "Khaatam" means last.

I already discussed that. This word, never, ever mean Last. I challenged if you can find only one Arabic sentence with word "Khaatam" as in the Last, and you could not. Does not that tell you, Muslims mistook the meaning of this word, and because of its similarity to word Khatm, they thought it means last? Thus God misleads those who have a disease in their Heart. Those who like pervious Ummahs, interpret their Book, to mean "Never a prophet comes after this"
The word does mean final, I've shown it even in Quran elsewhere. It can also mean ring, but here it's impossible to mean that.

As for proving, if it's proving to you, you are pretty stubborn and make clear things obtuse. But for others, they can clearly see the falsehood of your religion.
 
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